• America, propaganda, and socialism
    240 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Earthen;26900984]People are not hoarding fat greedy bastards. Its in our nature to want things and to have things and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.[/QUOTE] How about this smug motherfucker? [img]http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2891/793899-kotick3_large.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=C0linSSX;26913055]How about this smug motherfucker? [img_thumb]http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2891/793899-kotick3_large.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE] To be honest I doubt anyone knows him personally. Perhaps there are people who are hoarding fat greedy bastards? Perhaps he is one of them? Even so, he's only 1 out of 6-7 billion. [editline]23rd December 2010[/editline] I'm in no way defending Activision or Bobby!
Very few of you people understand economics. [editline]23rd December 2010[/editline] Low interest rates, lowered taxes seal the recessionary gap. Once you've taken economics you can literally visualize the efforts of the government to raise/lower taxes in order to maintain an equilibriam between supply and demand. It's really quite interesting.
[QUOTE=MovingSalad;26913215]Very few of you people understand economics.[/QUOTE] I understand it, but it would be nice if everyone was able to understand it. It would be quite an interesting discussion.
I encourage people to take Economics in their schools if they have the option. It is necessary to understand the economy in which you live in, rather than just being ignorant to it.
[QUOTE=lemongrapes;26902131]Totally agree, Scandinavia: highest taxes, happiest people.[/QUOTE] Don't scandinavians have some of the highest suicide rates in the world?
Socialism is just as viable as Capitalism, but it is no easier and no harder; the only thing that would change in socialist America would be How people cheat the system. It's like playing cards with a kid--no matter what game you play, he's gonna cheat. And that's what creates the problems--not the system itself. Though the problems we have in capitalist America my be solved if we changed to socialism, that change would indefinitely create other unforeseen problems that are equally, or even more bad than those we have now. The best thing we can try to do now is educate people better, and to end prejudice (especially racially) (which is already dwindling throughout the country). OH and can we stop global warming for christ's sake?
[QUOTE=thisispain;26901723]thomas jefferson was what we would call today a communist he believed society would be perfect if all people had ten acres of land and participated directly in politics when people died their acres would be redistributed to the people people would work to their ability and provide to the needs of the community[/QUOTE] “A wise and frugal government… shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” — Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801 Bullshit.
[QUOTE=furbrain;26912956]I never said that you don't rely on other people.[/QUOTE] You used [B]other[/B] people to get rich, it is not [B]your[/B] money alone that you apparently [I]earned[/I] all by yourself. [quote]I never said anything about getting places in life because of education, so stop pulling shit out of your ass.[/quote]Education is run by the state, that is Marxist. So is the fire department, most libraries, police, road maintenance etc etc - this is all socialist. So you know, don't really talk about Socialism and Marxism in general if you have no idea what it actually does besides other than reading about the Soviet Union or growing up during the red scare period. [quote]I never said anything about corporations paying fair taxes and being regulated. You again, are pulling shit out of your ass.[/quote][B]This is a method of Socialism and explains why you know nothing about a subject you're talking about[/B] [quote]A figure off of my head? Really? Just to name a few companies - [URL="http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Google-Chrome-Chrome-for-a-Cause-Tabs-Donations-Charity,11815.html"]Google[/URL] [URL="http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Pages/home.aspx"]Bill Gates[/URL] [URL="http://www.coca-cola.co.uk/faq/community/does-coca-cola-support-any-particular-charities-community-projects.html"]Coca-Cola[/URL][/quote] I can find countless companies that do not give to charity, just because a company gives to charity does not make them a lawful good. You do know that if companies in America pay to charities then they play less tax, right? Ohohoho. [quote]Right now the USA is in a very poor economic situation as you should already know. Where a company has to cutback and try to find new ways to make money and to cut corners to make a profit. I know that there are some bad companies but there are also some very good ones which you don't seem to understand and you have the mindset that all big companies are evil and 'money for the people' etc.[/quote]Err if you understood anything about business economics then you'd understand that a business is a profit organization, they are not there to be nice people. [quote]You see I was trying to get the point across that I believe that it is not right to take large company's money away from them.[/quote]Thats nice that you think Socialism takes away all their money, which it does not. I think you need to stop watching Fox News.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;26906060]How is he supposed to be able to contribute if he's very sick and unhealthy? It's not a matter of who deserves it or not.[/QUOTE] you choose to get drunk you don't choose to be crippled
[QUOTE=Vasili;26913955]Err if you understood anything about business economics then you'd understand that a business is a profit organization, they are not there to be nice people.[/QUOTE] If YOU understood anything about business economics the you'd understand that centralizing the economy simply DOES NOT work.
Do I detect a bit of Argumentum ad hominem? :P
I'm laughing so hard from the first page.
[QUOTE=Derubermensch;26914000]If YOU understood anything about business economics the you'd understand that centralizing the economy simply DOES NOT work.[/QUOTE] China seems to be doing pretty okay with their socialist market economy system. The government is capable of viewing user demand and does not have to rely on businessmen alone, in fact for a example businessmen help the government out in this field. Anyway, its not all about taking and controlling the industry, with democratic socialism per example its a monitoring. Regardless if Americans disagree, they have a lot of socialist policies and principles and even business ethics in their country, but its usually labeled 'God' or 'Freedom' etc etc.
[QUOTE=Vasili;26914192]China seems to be doing pretty okay with their socialist market economy system. The government is capable of viewing user demand and does not have to rely on businessmen alone, infact for a example businessmen help the government out in this field.[/QUOTE] You do realize that China's economy has less regulations then ours, right? And that it's massive profits are a result of it's extremely low working wages?
[QUOTE=Matix;26900789]. [b]Point 3:[/b] America is already socialized What? America is socialist? No, but the American government has socialized quite a few significant things. Namely, [list] [*]Law enforcement [*]Fire department [*]Education [*]The military and Coast Guard [*]Libraries and museums [*]Public parks [*]Public roads [*]Telephone lines [*]Post offices [*]Airports [*]Jails and the judicial system [*][B]Gas, electricity, and water[/B] [*]Old people [/list] [/quote] Texas deregulated electricity, becuase they thought a free market would be a better idea. and prices shot up to 40 times the national average. Good job.
[QUOTE=Derubermensch;26914263]You do realize that China's economy has less regulations then ours, right? And that it's massive profits are a result of it's extremely low working wages?[/QUOTE] Ya-huh, but it still has a centralized policy. They watch on what is produce and can order what to be produced.
[QUOTE=Matix;26900789]I'll start off by admitting that the shit storm starting after Obama's inauguration in 2008 regarding socialism has died down considerably. However, I'd like to know why it was ever an issue. And by socialism, I mean [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism]socialism[/url]; not [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism]communism[/url]. [b]Point 1:[/b] Socialism is not inherently bad It is a flawed economic and political theory that, when implemented [i]completely[/i] or under a totalitarian society, is very likely to fail. However, any rational politician will maintain that the most successful of the world's political systems are derived from various ideas; borrowing and combining aspects of each to create a better overall theory. Since socialism is a legitimate and (in theory) reasonable idea, why are we so quick to dismiss any push for consideration of even a semi-socialist implementation into American government? [b]Point 2:[/b] Our perception of socialism is misguided Beginning shortly after WWII, continuing through the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_scare]"Red Scare"[/url], and ultimately, right up until the end of the Cold War, America has been the subject of ambiguous propaganda regarding Marxism and communism. By ambiguous, I mean that this propaganda was morphed and evolved over the years to encompass Marxism, communism, fascism, socialism, and their respective derivatives as if they were all one in the same. As if they were all equally "evil." While I cannot argue in favor of any of the aforementioned political systems (socialism excluded), I can say with certainty that socialism was unfairly dragged into the tussle. It is from this that we, as a society, root our ingrained discomfort with the word. [b]Point 3:[/b] America is already socialized What? America is socialist? No, but the American government has socialized quite a few significant things. Namely, [list] [*]Law enforcement [*]Fire department [*]Education [*]The military and Coast Guard [*]Libraries and museums [*]Public parks [*]Public roads [*]Telephone lines [*]Post offices [*]Airports [*]Jails and the judicial system [*]Gas, electricity, and water [*]Old people [/list] A full, detailed list would be much longer, but you get the idea. Even healthcare is somewhat socialized, but it's not hard to see how much we're in need of a complete rethinking of that system. [b]Point 4:[/b] Capitalism is not without downfalls A country in which you are free to earn, free to buy and sell, and free to succeed sounds ideal. The only problem is, who decides at what point you are going too far? People here are free to capitalize on whatever they want, and that can have consequences. We have privately owned hospitals, privately owned emergency services, privately owned civil defense, privately owned construction companies, privately owned space-exploration companies, and scariest of all, privately owned oil companies. Privatized industries can be great benefactors to a country, but it's a gamble. For example, certain privatized emergency services are some of the best around, where ambulances can respond up to twice as fast as typical government sponsored services. However, at the other end of the spectrum, oil companies are able to charge outrageous prices to distributors for the same reason. In general, while we all hope privatized services are in it for the greater good, they are usually in it for themselves. [b]Point 5:[/b] American philosophy says we should listen to socialists America is a democratic republic. America is generally a capitalist society. We are a "melting pot" of cultures and beliefs. It is (theoretically) our very nature to at least hear out liberal movements involving socialism. Then again, it is also our very nature, theoretically, to give Nazism, Fascism, Communism, and the prospect of a totalitarian dictatorship a chance in the spotlight as well. The difference is that certain aspects of socialism, when added to the overall equation of modern America, have a feasible chance at improving the country considerably. It is for this reason that we should approach the topic much more intellectually, even if taken with a grain of salt. I'm interested to hear your thoughts :munch:[/QUOTE] State's rights. If the feds completely violate the decisions of the states civil war would break out. The ability to form militias is whats being protected under the second amendment. Therefore, America as a whole cannot be socialist.
[QUOTE=Vasili;26914313]Ya-huh, but it still has a centralized policy. They watch on what is produce and can order what to be produced.[/QUOTE] Any system can work if the government encourages the use of the working class as slaves. In this case "work" is defined as the country does do a lot of trade. If you look at the Chinese GDP compared to ours, though, you can obviously see that the Chinese centralized system does not benefit the Chinese people.
Highest suicides in Scandinavia has a lot of factors, a large is environmental impact. Think about the ful month without sunlight. Lack of sunlight leads to depression for many people. Seasonal Depression.
[QUOTE=Broni;26900827]Because in any societal system there will be corruption, that's why socialism and communism would work out even more imbalanced and fucked up than capitalism is.[/QUOTE] look at Denmark. its doing grate and there is very low crime.
[QUOTE=R3mix;26909495]What? Are you a retard? Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence you idiot and he was a part in drafting the Constitution of the United States. I don't know about you, but neither of those seem communistic at all.[/QUOTE] what those have nothing to do with communism nor capitalism and if you read his writings and books those are the views he expressed, where do you get the privilege to call someone else a retard i don't know [editline]23rd December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Derubermensch;26913892]“A wise and frugal government… shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” — Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801 Bullshit.[/QUOTE] true communism is about each person with their own land free from the government and social classes jefferson believed that america should be a farmers nation, he never believed it would be about free commerce and manufacturing
[QUOTE=thisispain;26914936]what those have nothing to do with communism nor capitalism and if you read his writings and books those are the views he expressed, where do you get the privilege to call someone else a retard i don't know [editline]23rd December 2010[/editline] true communism is about each person with their own land free from the government and social classes jefferson believed that america should be a farmers nation, he never believed it would be about free commerce and manufacturing[/QUOTE] The man helped form a fucking country. You're just a troll. :frog:
[QUOTE=R3mix;26915370]The man helped form a fucking country. You're just a troll. :frog:[/QUOTE] what [editline]23rd December 2010[/editline] thomas jefferson didn't write the constitution either
[QUOTE=R3mix;26915370]The man helped form a fucking country. You're just a troll. :frog:[/QUOTE] Karl Marx and the definition of Communism didn't even exist until the mid-1800's
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;26915533]Karl Marx and the definition of Communism didn't even exist until the mid-1800's[/QUOTE] which is why i said today he'd be considered a communist all of his writings completely go in the opposite direction that people think he is he stresses a small community, all members engaged in politics, owns of production owned by a community of farmers which provide for the need of the community he was a total [B]agrarian[/B]
[QUOTE=thisispain;26915595]which is why i said today he'd be considered a communist all of his writings completely go in the opposite direction that people think he is he stresses a small community, all members engaged in politics, owns of production owned by a community of farmers which provide for the need of the community he was a total [B]agrarian[/B][/QUOTE] Mind pulling out some quotes so we can treat this is as a legitimate argument.
[QUOTE=thisispain;26915449]what [editline]23rd December 2010[/editline] thomas jefferson didn't write the constitution either[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Virginia[/url] He may have not wrote it, but he was quite an architect towards it along with Madison. My apologies for my mistake on Jefferson not writing the Constitution of the United States, but again he is nothing along the lines of communist.
this [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_jefferson]wikipedia article[/url] is fantastically written and quotes many sources so that's a start next i would say read jefferson's only book where he plots out his agrarian principles
[QUOTE=thisispain;26915877]this [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_jefferson]wikipedia article[/url] is fantastically written and quotes many sources so that's a start next i would say read jefferson's only book where he plots out his agrarian principles[/QUOTE] Thomas Jefferson was a big believer in Farmer's rights yes, but that doesn't mean he's a communist or had communist ideals at all. The man was a founder of our country, he believed in the rights of the people (and states), and just because they didn't turn out the way he though doesn't make him a communist at all. He was actually a Republican back then, but because of the way politics turned out today and the fact that the parties switched ideals a long time ago, Mister Jefferson would be considered a Democrat today, most likely near the center. Just for your information too, Thomas also supported the War of 1812.
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