• America, propaganda, and socialism
    240 replies, posted
[QUOTE=thisispain;26915877]this [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_jefferson]wikipedia article[/url] is fantastically written and quotes many sources so that's a start next i would say read jefferson's only book where he plots out his agrarian principles[/QUOTE] I'm seeing a whole lot about individual liberty, state's rights, and avoiding debt by not borrowing from banks. I'm not seeing anything about communization or collectivism. The article mentions Jefferson's dislike of corporations subverting the law, but nothing along the lines of communist theory. Page King
[QUOTE=makingthatmaker;26913981]you choose to get drunk you don't choose to be crippled[/QUOTE] Yeah, but what does him being drunk have to do with him being crippled? His alcohol-addiction could be considered to cripple him and in that case he absolutely needs help. [QUOTE=tomcat13;26913679]Don't scandinavians have some of the highest suicide rates in the world?[/QUOTE] The highest reported suicide rates. I doubt it's actually higher than any other country to be honest.
all 3 systems are fucked up in there own special way. Hopefully we can transcend then with technology over time.
[QUOTE=Vasili;26913955] Education is run by the state, that is Marxist. So is the fire department, most libraries, police, road maintenance etc etc - this is all socialist. So you know, don't really talk about Socialism and Marxism in general if you have no idea what it actually does besides other than reading about the Soviet Union or growing up during the red scare period.[/QUOTE] I still have no fucking idea how this correlates with anything in my post. I was not talking about fucking socialism in the first place
[QUOTE=R3mix;26909495]We like money in our pockets, not with the government. Hence Capitalism. Hence Democratic-Republic. We don't need a government-ran economy.[/QUOTE] Maybe you do, since this is the second time your current system completely collapsed.
[QUOTE=R3mix;26909495]We like money in our pockets, not with the government. Hence Capitalism. Hence Democratic-Republic. We don't need a government-ran economy.[/QUOTE] funny because the people who work in government are rich
[QUOTE=Broni;26900863]America hasn't socialized shit... The whole idea of socialism is that people don't earn money from their job the state pays them an allowance suitable to their means. Everyone puts everything into the pot for the greater good, rather than grabbing up and taking as much as they can..therefore some people end up with less because others have more. How the hell can you say America is socialist when you don't even have National Health? How exactly are parks, old people and telephone lines socialist to pick a few?... Socialism is not flawed, it's a perfect idea.. ON PAPER. Much like Communism. Most people tend to forget that a large amount of the population are corrupt greedy fucks... Which is why we have Capitalism and why the USA hates communists so much! Those corperate bigguys sure don't want to share their bank account with any poor people.[/QUOTE] That's not socialism, that's communism. Socialism still allows for a class system. So people like Doctors, Lawyers, and scientists, all get just compensation for their services.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;26918976]Maybe you do, since this is the second time your current system completely collapsed.[/QUOTE] Fourth time actually, you're forgetting the Panic of 1873 and 1893, then following up the Great Depression. Followed by this. If you've also noticed something each time our economy collapses its due to the fact our government spends so much on defense that we head into a deficit. But if you look at a certain predecessor such as Bill Clinton when he was running the government, most of our spending was towards research, development, science, creating jobs, etc. Not as much was used on defense in comparison to the Bush Administration. Blaming the [b]NEAR-COLLAPSE[/b] of our system on [b]us the people[/b] is completely incorrect considering that our taxes are used by the government, and what happens when the government goes over its budget and heads into a deficit? Well, this right now what's happening. So considering when the people were happy with their jobs during the Clinton Administration and where the taxes went, and the fact that Bill Clinton left our economy with a $128 Billion Surplus, I wouldn't be talking because you've just shown your stupidity. Congratulations. [QUOTE=imasillypiggy;26919030]funny because the people who work in government are rich[/QUOTE] You're heading into a completely different region right there. Government people are payed by our taxes because that's their job for them, and they're also working with lobbyists which is a completely different story but that adds to their money amount too. And consider the fact of the latest tax cuts which just passed too. Don't blame the people, blame the government for trying to run our economy on war and defense.
[QUOTE=R3mix;26916027]The man was a founder of our country, he believed in the rights of the people (and states), and just because they didn't turn out the way he though doesn't make him a communist at all. .[/QUOTE] i didn't say he was a communist, i said he'd be considered a communist were he alive today his ideals show a collectivist attitude towards society, he stressed the society above people themselves and said people could only be unperverted if they were farmers this is consistent with Marx's and Engel's ideals about the perfect society as well, it's likely they wanted the same kind of society [editline]23rd December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Derubermensch;26916112] I'm not seeing anything about communization or collectivism. [/QUOTE] he believed in a farmer's commune.
[QUOTE=R3mix;26919492]Fourth time actually, you're forgetting the Panic of 1873 and 1893, then following up the Great Depression. Followed by this. If you've also noticed something each time our economy collapses its due to the fact our government spends so much on defense that we head into a deficit. But if you look at a certain predecessor such as Bill Clinton when he was running the government, most of our spending was towards research, development, science, creating jobs, etc. Not as much was used on defense in comparison to the Bush Administration. Blaming the [b]NEAR-COLLAPSE[/b] of our system on [b]us the people[/b] is completely incorrect considering that our taxes are used by the government, and what happens when the government goes over its budget and heads into a deficit? Well, this right now what's happening. So considering when the people were happy with their jobs during the Clinton Administration and where the taxes went, and the fact that Bill Clinton left our economy with a $128 Billion Surplus, I wouldn't be talking because you've just shown your stupidity. Congratulations.[/QUOTE] Actually, you just proved me right. Money into social services = good, ignoring the market and pumping money into defense = bad.
[QUOTE=thisispain;26922978]i didn't say he was a communist, i said he'd be considered a communist were he alive today his ideals show a collectivist attitude towards society, he stressed the society above people themselves and said people could only be unperverted if they were farmers this is consistent with Marx's and Engel's ideals about the perfect society as well, it's likely they wanted the same kind of society[/QUOTE] Agrarian Beliefs =/= Communism please get out. [QUOTE=Zeke129;26923046]Actually, you just proved me right. Money into social services = good, ignoring the market and pumping money into defense = bad.[/QUOTE] Really? Because last I remember you said a government-ran economy is a good thing. You do understand what a [b]government-ran[/b] economy is, correct? And you never said any of that. Also, you need to pump some money into defense as well as social services, there needs to be a balance in-order to maintain a healthy economy with a surplus, hence what Bill Clinton did. He balanced the budget.
[QUOTE=Broni;26900863]Socialism is not flawed, it's a perfect idea.. ON PAPER. Much like Communism. Most people tend to forget that a large amount of the population are corrupt greedy fucks... Which is why we have Capitalism and why the USA hates communists so much! Those corperate bigguys sure don't want to share their bank account with any poor people.[/QUOTE] Please stop saying this. This is like saying "well the plans for the machine looked good but it fell apart when we constructed it OH BUT IT LOOKED GOOD ON PAPER." If it doesn't work in practice, it's not a "perfect plan". [editline]24th December 2010[/editline] Communism fails because some people WANT to be more successful than others. For some, it is not enough to know that "everyone is happy". Some people want to be on top, knowing others are below. All of us have this instinct in us.
[QUOTE=R3mix;26924063]Agrarian Beliefs =/= Communism please get out. [/QUOTE] that's not agrarianism you're not clever, you just sound mentally stunted
A system will have faults until they they find a way to eliminate greed. out of the 3 that we have now I would Denmarks socialism is the best. and to the people who say socialism looks good on paper but doesnt work in real life should look at countrys that are using it. yes it has problems but it causes more happiness and less greed then capitalism.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;26918976]Maybe you do, since this is the second time your current system completely collapsed.[/QUOTE] Oh my God the entire system has collapsed everyone is dying the world has come to an end.
[QUOTE=Explosions;26924621]Oh my God the entire system has collapsed everyone is dying the world has come to an end.[/QUOTE] Well many people have died because of this or are in a much worse state.
Scandinavia is socialist, and is also one of the places with the lowest corruption, least religion and happiest people. How's that for a slice of fried gold?
[QUOTE=R3mix;26924063]Really? Because last I remember you said a government-ran economy is a good thing. You do understand what a [b]government-ran[/b] economy is, correct? And you never said any of that.[/QUOTE] Actually, I said democratic socialism is a good thing (may have been in another thread, but I've said it enough that it should be apparent). There's tighter regulation on the financial sector but it's not as though the state owns everything, as you seem to think.
it is humanly impossible to have a perfect political system
[QUOTE=Taishu;26925487]Scandinavia is socialist, and is also one of the places with the lowest corruption, least religion and happiest people. How's that for a slice of fried gold?[/QUOTE] Actually we do have alot of religion. The only thing is the main religion in Scandinavia is protestantic christianity wich is alot less stricter than the catholic christianity. Therefor religion and politics in Scandinavia are separated, wich is great. Religion is not a problem at all up here.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;26926808]Actually we do have alot of religion. The only thing is the main religion in Scandinavia is protestantic christianity wich is alot less stricter than the catholic christianity. Therefor religion and politics in Scandinavia are separated, wich is great. Religion is not a problem at all up here.[/QUOTE] We have one of the highest percentages of atheists/agnostics.
[QUOTE=Taishu;26929277]We have one of the highest percentages of atheists/agnostics.[/QUOTE] I see, oh well. The protestantic church is win.
[QUOTE=nemmises5;26926427]it is humanly impossible to have a perfect political system[/QUOTE] there would need to be a serious reform first and thats not happening anytime soon
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;26929879]I see, oh well. The protestantic church is win.[/QUOTE] It most certainly is not. No "church" could ever be "win", with the exception of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster of course.
[QUOTE=Taishu;26930824]It most certainly is not. No "church" could ever be "win", with the exception of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster of course.[/QUOTE] Way to be anti-religion.
[QUOTE=Taishu;26930824]It most certainly is not. No "church" could ever be "win", with the exception of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster of course.[/QUOTE] Wahhhhhh religion is the cause of all the world's problems.
[QUOTE=Explosions;26931142]Wahhhhhh religion is the cause of all the world's problems.[/QUOTE] Religion is the opium of the masses. - Karl Marx [editline]24th December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Broni;26900863]America hasn't socialized shit... The whole idea of socialism is that people don't earn money from their job the state pays them an allowance suitable to their means. Everyone puts everything into the pot for the greater good, rather than grabbing up and taking as much as they can..therefore some people end up with less because others have more. How the hell can you say America is socialist when you don't even have National Health? How exactly are parks, old people and telephone lines socialist to pick a few?... Socialism is not flawed, it's a perfect idea.. ON PAPER. Much like Communism. Most people tend to forget that a large amount of the population are corrupt greedy fucks... Which is why we have Capitalism and why the USA hates communists so much! Those corperate bigguys sure don't want to share their bank account with any poor people.[/QUOTE] Capitalism also looks good on paper.
people are dumb and cant factor human emotions into the equation
[QUOTE=Stupideye;26931307]Religion is the opium of the masses. - Karl Marx[/QUOTE] That's nice to know. What relevance does this quote have to anything?
I'm pretty much happy right now. Most people I know are happy. I'd rather keep things how they are now.
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