• Physical punishment as a way of disciplining your children
    170 replies, posted
I was going to point out the absurdity of even debating this since it's illegal and you should never hurt your kids, but then I discovered it's legal in the US, Canada and UK. It's some Saudi Arabia tier shit if you ask me. I had one incident when I was a kid that is related to this, and I still remember it. It was awful and it makes me feel like shit every time I think about it. I can't even imagine what people who were beaten regularly must feel like.
[QUOTE=averygoodname;52125514]It's just as stupid and outdated as things like racism, sexism and it shouldn't be a thing just like the other two. The only reason it's still even used is because of schools that used rulers to beat children and parents that think because their parents did it it's okay for them to do it, not to mention it can lead to emotional trauma and for that child to then do it to their kids later on in life.[/QUOTE] …not really. Practically everyone who has grown up with having to deal with sexist/racist remarks would agree that they're a bad thing, however several people in this thread have stated that they grew up with corporal punishment and they are glad they did as it taught them respect, which is why they would do the same to their children.
[QUOTE=Birdman101;52125003]I got the belt a couple times as a kid, and i tell you what, it worked. whatever i did to deserve it, i sure as hell never did it again.[/QUOTE] Agreed. It was never really hard to where it actually hurt that much, but after the first few times one snap of the thing or "DON'T MAKE ME GET THE BELT" got me to quit being a little shit. Normal spankings were a thing and I came out ok. People act like it's the end of the world if someone even thinks about spanking. Like I get it if you were legit a child abuse survivor, but otherwise why?
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52125619]…not really. Practically everyone who has grown up with having to deal with sexist/racist remarks would agree that they're a bad thing, however several people in this thread have stated that [B]they grew up with corporal punishment and they are glad they did as it taught them respect[/B], which is why they would do the same to their children.[/QUOTE] How does this work? And how do you determine whether respect was learned because of or in spite of corporal punishment? Especially considering research shows corporal punishment causes damage, and considering people who haven't experienced corporal punishment are also capable of being respectful.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;52125640]How does this work? And how do you determine whether respect was learned because of or in spite of corporal punishment? Especially considering research shows corporal punishment causes damage, and considering people who haven't experienced corporal punishment are also capable of being respectful.[/QUOTE] People generally remember their childhood fairly well from a certain age onwards, and they know how they felt at the time, and how they learnt not to do certain things based on how they were punished. My parents used corporal punishment sometimes, and I know that it taught me in a way that wouldn't have been the same if I had just been told off verbally. No one is saying that people who haven't experienced corporal punishment aren't capable of being respectful, the thing is every kid is different and some struggle to understand when something is wrong by solely shouting at them or telling them they did something wrong.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;52125640]How does this work? And how do you determine whether respect was learned because of or in spite of corporal punishment? Especially considering research shows corporal punishment causes damage, and considering people who haven't experienced corporal punishment are also capable of being respectful.[/QUOTE] You'll learn to respect the pain. I think the misconception comes from that thinking corporal punishment as some kind of full-on beatdown? It's not, it's usually in an controlled environment. We WILLINGLY stand our ground let the pain come because we knew we did wrong. If you can't handle it, you'll stop doing it; when you stop, the pain stops. Sometimes some practitioners don't hit hard enough, I never learn from them, because the pain can't keep me from being a lazy cunt. We don't waste time with detentions, we just obey and work hard to keep ourselves out of trouble. Boy this sounds horrible isn't it? Never had hard feelings, just lived in the system. [sp]Maybe I'm just so used to it since I'm a little stubborn fucker back then.[/sp]
There were times where it more or less fake to get hit by my parents. But I also recall numerous times where I was curled up in a corner and my mom won't stop hitting me or when she would put me against a window and slap me several times. Years later she apologized because my Dad Made her anxious and she would vent her anger on me by beating me. A slap on the wrist? It's ok, maybe. Beating the hell out of them and make the kid grow up paranoid of everything? Bad.
People are comparing a slight slap on the bum to getting physically beaten into submission and they're totally different, as long as it isn't the go-to punishment for every minor thing they do wrong. Physical punishment should never be the default method of course, but sometimes certain situations deem it necessary. I don't think the odd butt spank is going to ruin a kid for life, but some of the shit you guys talk about? That's pure abuse, if you beat your kids to the point of causing bruising or injury, you're going too far.
Even the 'odd spank' is negative to a child's well being. You're a grown ass adult, are you telling me that inflicting pain on your kid is the last thing available to you, or are you blaming your own shortcomings on your kid(s)? You're literally in full control of their lives. Not to mention what did it have to take for the kid to get to that 'uncontrollable' point? Kids don't just come fighting straight out of the womb and you finally decide to deal with them when they're five. Where did it start escalating from and why didn't you deal with it then? I find it unlikely that you haven't punished them before if you're going to punish them now, and that leads to them developing more and more negative behaviors over time because of the subtle but negative effects punishments have on children. Also, apparently the hundreds of studies on spanking being negative for children aren't enough to convince some people. The Stockholm syndrome is strong with this one. Parenting isn't a fucking joke and if you're not going to give your own flesh and blood your all then don't even become a parent in the first place. [editline]19th April 2017[/editline] I'm not even going to bring up my experience with animals that have been yelled at - [i]simply yelled at[/i] - and how that has produced very clear and negative results in their behavior. I don't think humans are any different.
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;52125963] I'm not even going to bring up my experience with animals that have been yelled at - [i]simply yelled at[/i] - and how that has produced very clear and negative results in their behavior. I don't think humans are any different.[/QUOTE] I think (I might be wrong on this) even yelling at, let's say, a dog, is physically painful for them because their ears are hypersensitive right?
This is true (edit: to an extent, it's a mild pain, they can handle loud noises to a point), however the effects can be seen even in parrots, animals designed to listen to loud noises (aka other parrots), and they produce the same negative and fearful behavior just from yelling at them for extended periods of time. However, you can somewhat chop that up to the fact that birds and parrots especially are extremely emotional creatures that can become very attached to people. This is why I didn't want to use it as large example of talk too much about it, you can dispute it to a certain extent. [editline]19th April 2017[/editline] I'm highly interested in animal psychology, despite being a very small and under researched field, I find that people and many other animals are not that different at all. But that's a topic for another thread.
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;52126016]This is true (edit: to an extent, it's a mild pain, they can handle loud noises to a point), however the effects can be seen even in parrots, animals designed to listen to loud noises (aka other parrots), and they produce the same negative and fearful behavior just from yelling at them for extended periods of time. However, you can somewhat chop that up to the fact that birds and parrots especially are extremely emotional creatures that can become very attached to people. This is why I didn't want to use it as large example of talk too much about it, you can dispute it to a certain extent. [editline]19th April 2017[/editline] I'm highly interested in animal psychology, despite being a very small and under researched field, I find that people and many other animals are not that different at all. But that's a topic for another thread.[/QUOTE] The thing with animals is they don't understand human language, so they often don't know what's going on. As much as some emotions may be shared in animals, there are a variety of other factors at play here which don't cause all these effects on children, namely that children understand human language so they know what they're being punished for, let's not start comparing apples to oranges. There are studies on spanking being good for the reinforcement of discipline in children too, and then you realize why this topic is still debated even today. There are people in this thread, including myself, whose parents have used corporal punishment on them and they've grown up realizing it benefited them. You need to understand that people aren't hitting their children because they can't control their temper, they do it because it was done to them and it worked for them.
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52126130] You need to understand that people aren't hitting their children because they can't control their temper, they do it because it was done to them and it worked for them.[/QUOTE] Counterpoint: if it worked for them, why are they resorting to hitting their children?
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52125670]the thing is every kid is different and some struggle to understand when something is wrong by solely shouting at them or telling them they did something wrong.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure those are the only alternatives to corporal punishment? Like I said earlier, I don't know shite about parenting, but I'm sure there are hundreds of methods for encouraging good behaviors and attitudes, and preventing bad attitudes and behavior. I'm not trying to make it sound like you view corporal punishment as the only tool in upbringing, but I do think it sounds like you think it's the only way to deal with wrongdoing. How about a 'verbal' punishment in the form of a consequence, maybe one that incorporates the wrongdoing, such as repaying if something was broken? How about maybe giving the kid a hug if they're upset, talking to them about why what they did was wrong [I](if they don't know)[/I], or about their feelings that led them to do something wrong [I](if they do know)[/I], maybe even consider actually letting them think about it themselves, if they clearly knew it was wrong? Obviously, none of these can be used in all situations, and these being options doesn't prove that corporal punishment is never the better solution. I just wanted to point out that physical punishment and verbal punishment aren't the only ones; and that there is a possibility that the best options aren't obvious or even currently known. I'm not sure about anything I'm saying here, it's just striking to me that corporal punishment is actually illegal in many parts of the world: wouldn't there then be a clear, measurable effect in countries that doesn't allow it, if it was necessary? [QUOTE=djjkxbox;52126130]There are studies on spanking being good for the reinforcement of discipline in children too, and then you realize why this topic is still debated even today.[/QUOTE] Please do post these? I am honestly on the fence - but as I said earlier I think it is telling that people are following Vodkavia's descriptions perfectly even after he pointed it out: [I]"a lot of people who say "it works," it's "nessecary sometimes" and "I turned out alright." Never once do you find people actually citing studies to back up these ideas.[/I]"
i wish we could see who voted so we could see who actually thinks beating the shit out of your kid is ok you could argue spanking and even a belt but more than that? what :s:
[QUOTE=J!NX;52126272]i wish we could see who voted so we could see who actually thinks beating the shit out of your kid is ok you could argue spanking and even a belt but more than that? what :s:[/QUOTE] wouldn't surprise me if some of those votes are joke votes
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52126130]The thing with animals is they don't understand human language, so they often don't know what's going on. As much as some emotions may be shared in animals, there are a variety of other factors at play here which don't cause all these effects on children, namely that children understand human language so they know what they're being punished for, let's not start comparing apples to oranges. There are studies on spanking being good for the reinforcement of discipline in children too, and then you realize why this topic is still debated even today. There are people in this thread, including myself, whose parents have used corporal punishment on them and they've grown up realizing it benefited them. You need to understand that people aren't hitting their children because they can't control their temper, they do it because it was done to them and it worked for them.[/QUOTE] I think that's why animals are an apt example, because children often don't understand what they did wrong or why they're being punished. Also, is learning 'discipline' worth it when you're hurting their ability to develop emotionally for the rest of their life? [editline]19th April 2017[/editline] The reason the debate has continued for so long is because abuse has existed in human society since it's inception and no matter how much science and research is done, humans are irrational beings who will defend their tradition, their family, and their experiences in the face of anything. It's the ultimate Stockholm syndrome that has been ingrained in society for thousands of years. [editline]19th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;52126272]i wish we could see who voted so we could see who actually thinks beating the shit out of your kid is ok you could argue spanking and even a belt but more than that? what :s:[/QUOTE] I disagree with this. I'm glad it's anonymous so we wouldn't have a silly witch hunt on our hands.
I know parents who do their best to not resort to spanking their kids. Time out, which only results in kicking and screaming cause they can't stand to sit still for long periods, or even a stern talking to. They carry on till they get a butt spank. All kids are different and respond to various punishments differently, some things just work better than others.
I keep saying this, punishments aren't effective till they're very drastic. Why can't parents use incentives? "Time outs" and a stern talking to are jokes even to adults, why would they impact a child? If your idea of raising kids is ramping up the punishments until they stop annoying you, then you're not fit to be a parent. [editline]19th April 2017[/editline] Remember that first paycheck at work? Remember how much you'd put yourself through just to keep getting that paycheck after the first one? Incentives are extremely powerful. They create an internal pressure rather than an external one. There is no internal pressure associated with a 'stern talking to,' it's such an abstract concept anyway. Real rewards are something even the most simple of creatures can understand, let alone children. That's not abstract at all.
[QUOTE=Richardroth;52125759]People are comparing a slight slap on the bum to getting physically beaten into submission and they're totally different, as long as it isn't the go-to punishment for every minor thing they do wrong. Physical punishment should never be the default method of course, but sometimes certain situations deem it necessary. [b]I don't think the odd butt spank is going to ruin a kid for life,[/b] but some of the shit you guys talk about? That's pure abuse, if you beat your kids to the point of causing bruising or injury, you're going too far.[/QUOTE] So it's ok just as long it wont "ruin a kid for life"? You don't fucking touch your kids with the purpose of inflicting pain, ever. What even makes people think this is ok? I'm willing to bet that every single person advocating violence in this thread has been subjected to abuse themselves and are somehow trying to justify bad parenting with "I turned out alright" arguments. If you got caught even spanking your kid here, you'd lose custody in a heartbeat, as you should. I had no idea this was still legal in parts of the western world. Fucking regressives. How does legislation on this even work? You have some accepted/banned equipment you can or can't use? Maximum limit of punishment you can inflict in a day?
[QUOTE=Uberpro;52126590]So it's ok just as long it wont "ruin a kid for life"? You don't fucking touch your kids with the purpose of inflicting pain, ever. What even makes people think this is ok? I'm willing to bet that every single person advocating violence in this thread has been subjected to abuse themselves and are somehow trying to justify bad parenting with "I turned out alright" arguments. If you got caught even spanking your kid here, you'd lose custody in a heartbeat, as you should. I had no idea this was still legal in parts of the western world. Fucking regressives. How does legislation on this even work? You have some accepted/banned equipment you can or can't use? Maximum limit of punishment you can inflict in a day?[/QUOTE] Alright, I'm not saying it's ok to ever hit or inflict pain on a child, but sometimes you have to break that barrier to get them to listen or they may end up doing something really stupid. What would you do if your kid refused to listen? You tried all the basics in the book but then what? You just let them go and allow them to think they can do whatever they want without consequence? "I keep saying this, punishments aren't effective till they're very drastic. Why can't parents use incentives? "Time outs" and a stern talking to are jokes even to adults, why would they impact a child? If your idea of raising kids is ramping up the punishments until they stop annoying you, then you're not fit to be a parent." ------------------------ So, what kind of incentives are we talking about? Candy or some such? I don't think rewarding a child for misbehaving is any better, it just assures them if they act up, they get rewarded for it and doesn't teach anything.
[QUOTE=Uberpro;52126590]So it's ok just as long it wont "ruin a kid for life"? You don't fucking touch your kids with the purpose of inflicting pain, ever. What even makes people think this is ok? I'm willing to bet that every single person advocating violence in this thread has been subjected to abuse themselves and are somehow trying to justify bad parenting with "I turned out alright" arguments. If you got caught even spanking your kid here, you'd lose custody in a heartbeat, as you should. I had no idea this was still legal in parts of the western world. Fucking regressives.[/QUOTE] You answered your own question: [QUOTE=Uberpro;52126590]What even makes people think this is ok?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Uberpro;52126590]somehow trying to justify bad parenting with "I turned out alright" arguments.[/QUOTE] Just because you grew up in a country where it's seen as a horrible act doesn't mean it has to be seen like that elsewhere, other countries have used corporal punishment for a very long time and that's because there's never been a substantial enough reason not to. The "I turned out alright" arguments are valid, these people have had time to think and look back at how corporal punishment has affected them. If they feel it's had a positive impact on their lives, then of course they will do the same to their children as they want the best for them. I can't find the direct link for this study and it's late here, but there's a news article here detailing the study about how smacked children can grow up to be more successful and happier later in life. I will have a look for more studies in the meantime. [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/6926823/Smacked-children-more-successful-later-in-life-study-finds.html[/url]
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52126657]Just because you grew up in a country where it's seen as a horrible act doesn't mean it has to be seen like that elsewhere, other countries have used corporal punishment for a very long time and that's because there's never been a substantial enough reason not to.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure corporal punishment has been used everywhere on earth for a very long time. Including Finland. "substantial reason not to", well, just by reading replies and research linked in thread I'd say there's plenty of substantial reason. There's substantial reason to ban smoking as well, doesn't mean it's illegal. The reason it's legal in your country is because of people like you. [QUOTE=djjkxbox;52126657]I can't find the direct link for this study and it's late here, but there's a news article here detailing the study about how smacked children can grow up to be more successful and happier later in life. I will have a look for more studies in the meantime. [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/6926823/Smacked-children-more-successful-later-in-life-study-finds.html[/url][/QUOTE] Your article provides more research against that study than for it. Also I find it pretty disturbing how it defines "acceptable punishment" with terms increasing in severity like a "light tap" or a "smack". Then the poll uses "punishment without injury". How are you supposed to effectively fight child abuse when you allow it to an extent? What the hell even is a light tap? Who seriously believes that the lady in your article only does "light taps"?
[QUOTE=Uberpro;52126725]I'm pretty sure corporal punishment has been used everywhere on earth for a very long time. Including Finland. "substantial reason not to", well, just by reading replies and research linked in thread I'd say there's plenty of substantial reason. There's substantial reason to ban smoking as well, doesn't mean it's illegal. Your article provides more research against that study than for it. Also I find it pretty disturbing how it defines "acceptable punishment" with terms like a "light tap" or a "smack". Then the poll uses "punishment without injury". How are you supposed to effectively fight child abuse when you allow it to an extent? What the hell even is a light tap? Who seriously believes that the lady in your article only does "light taps"?[/QUOTE] I guess it's semantics, but "without injury" I assume means without leaving any kind of mark or well, injury, which a light tap/smack shouldn't do.
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52126748]I guess it's semantics, but "without injury" I assume means without leaving any kind of mark or well, injury, which a light tap/smack shouldn't do.[/QUOTE] [quote]“While anything more than a light tap is definitely wrong[/quote] So light taps are alright but anything beyond that is "definitely wrong" I somehow doubt Mrs. Margaret Morrissey is being entirely thruthful in that article. "No Bob I can't steal those sweets with you, my mom would give me light taps!!"
[QUOTE=Uberpro;52126760]So light taps are alright but anything beyond that is "definitely wrong" I somehow doubt Mrs. Margaret Morrissey is being entirely thruthful in that article. "No Bob I can't steal those sweets with you, my mom would give me light taps!!"[/QUOTE] A light tap to a kid isn't that light, they will think of it as a smack. Enough to cause pain but not enough to cause injury. As long as you don't cause injury, it's fine.
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52126781]A light tap to a kid isn't that light, they will think of it as a smack. Enough to cause them pain but not enough to cause injury. As long as you don't cause injury, it's fine.[/QUOTE] So as soon as blood vessels are burst it becomes "definitely wrong". lol. I don't think causing actual physical injury is what this has been about. It's about how it affects you emotionally. Kids get hurt all the time just playing football or something, it's not a big deal. What's the problem with causing your kids an injury? Wouldn't that just get the message across better? [b]/s[/b]
[QUOTE=Uberpro;52126789]So as soon as blood vessels are burst it becomes "definitely wrong". lol.[/QUOTE] This isn't really that hard to understand; you want to cause pain to the child so they realise what they did is wrong, but you don't want to cause them injury.
[QUOTE=Noob4life;52125425]Hm... physical punishment is actually the norm for Asia culture (rarer nowadays, but extremely common 15 or so years back), canes being sold on the street for disciplining children, almost all schools permit and supply teachers with a cane. You did something the authority don't permit, you get x amount of stroke. Same goes for families but harsher (if you FUCKED UP good you can bet anything can become your parent's weapon, depends on your parent, of course), my family, all my friends', and those who don't get caned are dubbed spoiled. Everybody's sort of "okay" with it. Honestly? They are kinda effective? Things are orderly, and everybody kinda know their place, you know you do things to displease the adults you just gon' feel pain. The lessons just kinda always end up "yeah don't do that again unless you wanna get hurt", so I would say it wasn't very educational so obviously it isn't perfect, but ey, as I said, it was effective. Some really successful individuals grew up with this lifestyle and most of them appreciate the parenting style, keeps them in check during youth. I dunno bout nowadays, I assume it is lessened and more incentive-based.[/QUOTE] I think it's more due to the difference between the relationship between a parent and their child in the West and East. In the West, it's usually a chummy-friendly relationship between the parent and their child as if they're really good friends while in the East, a parent is a figure of authority who should be respected. In fact, the Chinese has a proverb for this: 打是疼,罵是愛 Which means:Sometimes harsh words or deeds can demonstrate one's love; Tough love is sometimes the only way.
You should be able to use your voice. You never should need to abuse your kid, because if it's assault doing that to an adult, why do that to a kid?
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