• Physical punishment as a way of disciplining your children
    170 replies, posted
[QUOTE=ChronoBlade;52126992]You should be able to use your voice. You never should need to abuse your kid, because if it's assault doing that to an adult, why do that to a kid?[/QUOTE] Generally you don't need to teach adults basic respect… usually with an adult you tell them something and they'll do it, kids aren't that simple. This is again comparing apples to oranges.
[QUOTE=ChronoBlade;52126992]You should be able to use your voice. You never should need to abuse your kid, because if it's assault doing that to an adult, why do that to a kid?[/QUOTE] Slapping an adult on the wrist isn't going to get you thrown in prison
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;52126387]I disagree with this. I'm glad it's anonymous so we wouldn't have a silly witch hunt on our hands.[/QUOTE] I welcome them to try and justify beating children that'll go swimmingly [editline]19th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Uberpro;52126789]So as soon as blood vessels are burst it becomes "definitely wrong". lol. I don't think causing actual physical injury is what this has been about. It's about how it affects you emotionally. Kids get hurt all the time just playing football or something, it's not a big deal. What's the problem with causing your kids an injury? Wouldn't that just get the message across better?[/QUOTE] There's a big difference between getting hurt playing around and getting hurt when your parents physically injures you because you didn't do your home work or something ones an accident the other roots a message into you that is much deeper than punishment. It's too powerful a message because it can affect them emotionally and mentally. It can cause them massive anger issues when they grow up, lead to depression and suicidal tendencies, and far too many problems. not only that, but it doesn't actually teach children anything at all. They can't be made to understand something through sheer force. [editline]19th April 2017[/editline] Lets not forget, again, that if you cause continuous injury to a child, they're going to get older, and eventually they're going to be big enough and smart enough to defend themselves. There is going to be a point where those violent lessons will teach them to strike back.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52127034]Slapping an adult on the wrist isn't going to get you thrown in prison[/QUOTE] Smacking someone across the face or spanking them will though, I'm not just talking about one form of abuse, but in general. [editline]20th April 2017[/editline] If you can't use your voice you're just admitting that your shit at communication.
[QUOTE=ChronoBlade;52127319]Smacking someone across the face or spanking them will though, I'm not just talking about one form of abuse, but in general. [editline]20th April 2017[/editline] If you can't use your voice you're just admitting that your shit at communication.[/QUOTE] so if your kid doesn't listen to you, you just suck at communication nah
[QUOTE=ChronoBlade;52127319]If you can't use your voice you're just admitting that your shit at communication.[/QUOTE] And that solves exactly...what? What if the kid happens to be really [B]fucking[/B] stubborn, and no amount of talk will tell him what things he [I]shouldn't[/I] do? Because there's plenty of kids out there with this mentality. These kids are multiplying. Kids these days are not stupid, they know they got the upper hand. Cheeky little fucks...
[QUOTE=J!NX;52127166]It's too powerful a message because it can affect them emotionally and mentally. It can cause them massive anger issues when they grow up, lead to depression and suicidal tendencies, and far too many problems.[/QUOTE] lol continuous beatings sure but the odd rare smack? What you're saying sounds like a kid being beaten with a baseball bat.
[QUOTE=Araknid;52127809]lol continuous beatings sure but the odd rare smack? What you're saying sounds like a kid being beaten with a baseball bat.[/QUOTE] The post I was quoting literally said "What's the problem with causing your kids an injury?" I'm not talking about the odd rare smack You could easily argue with even so much as a belt but this persons talking about injury. I'm also arguing against "A high level is ok, like beating your kid as punishment"
[QUOTE=J!NX;52127816]The post I was quoting literally said "What's the problem with causing your kids an injury?" I'm not talking about the odd rare smack You could easily argue with even so much as a belt but this persons talking about injury. I'm also arguing against "A high level is ok, like beating your kid as punishment"[/QUOTE] ah okay, apologies
[QUOTE=J!NX;52127166]I welcome them to try and justify beating children that'll go swimmingly [editline]19th April 2017[/editline] There's a big difference between getting hurt playing around and getting hurt when your parents physically injures you because you didn't do your home work or something ones an accident the other roots a message into you that is much deeper than punishment. It's too powerful a message because it can affect them emotionally and mentally. It can cause them massive anger issues when they grow up, lead to depression and suicidal tendencies, and far too many problems. not only that, but it doesn't actually teach children anything at all. They can't be made to understand something through sheer force. [editline]19th April 2017[/editline] Lets not forget, again, that if you cause continuous injury to a child, they're going to get older, and eventually they're going to be big enough and smart enough to defend themselves. There is going to be a point where those violent lessons will teach them to strike back.[/QUOTE] If you read my previous posts you'd know I was being sarcastic, I should've been more clear. I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of "causing an injury" being some magical border that you absolutely cannot cross while everything before that is perfectly fine. It doesn't matter if it leaves a bruise or not, the bruise is not what the kid will remember for the rest of his life. You should never harm your kids. The kid won't care about bruises, he'll care about getting hit or *lightly tapped*, by his parents. I'm just pointing out the absurdities in the pro-child abuse logic and rules some people use in this thread. [QUOTE=J!NX;52127816]The post I was quoting literally said "What's the problem with causing your kids an injury?" I'm not talking about the odd rare smack You could easily argue with even so much as a belt but this persons talking about injury. I'm also arguing against "A high level is ok, like beating your kid as punishment"[/QUOTE] Again, I was being sarcastic. Sorry for the confusion.
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52127738]so if your kid doesn't listen to you, you just suck at communication nah[/QUOTE] Well I'd be asking then "why" they don't listen to you. Like am I making sense here? Hitting a child shouldn't be order of the day, if you can influence their attitude without hitting them then that's good.
[QUOTE=ChronoBlade;52128364]Well I'd be asking then "why" they don't listen to you. Like am I making sense here? Hitting a child shouldn't be order of the day, if you can influence their attitude without hitting them then that's good.[/QUOTE] No one in this thread is suggesting you should hit your kid everytime they misbehave though. You'd be naive to think there's a single answer for why children don't listen to their parents, it's why people make millions selling parenting books.
I think sometimes you have to get physical when words don't work. Though if that happens all the time there's probably a deeper problem. I don't think it should be some sort of premeditated punishment, but more like a heat of the moment way to stop a tantrum. My mom slapped me a couple of times I think and it made sense.
[QUOTE=Kljunas;52128492]I think sometimes you have to get physical when words don't work. Though if that happens all the time there's probably a deeper problem. I don't think it should be some sort of premeditated punishment, but more like a heat of the moment way to stop a tantrum. My mom slapped me a couple of times I think and it made sense.[/QUOTE] This is basically the crux of it, it shouldn't happen all the time, only when it's needed. People against corporal punishment will argue that it's never needed, but again everyone's kids are different and everyone is brought up differently, that's the nature of life, sometimes words just don't work with children.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52123957]My mother beat me horribly. Brooms, sticks, wooden spoods; she used anything she had on hand. She lashed my back and rear end until I was red and bruised. The only thing I "gained" from it was knowing from an earlier age that my mother was physically and emotionally abusive. Years later when I visited family I relived the same experiences through my nephews and nieces. We stayed for a month or so, so I get to see how that style of "parenting" was passed on. These kids, some of them still toddlers and others as old as twelve endured everything I dealt with except worse. They were pummeled, slapped and knocked around to the point that it drew blood. Please don't fucking normalize child abuse.[/QUOTE] Same with my mother. Absolutely awful human being. I'd spill a glass of water and my mother would unleash hell about it and whoop my ass. All I ever got out of her treatment was a fear of [I]her[/I], not the action I'd done. Interestingly, as I grew up and became an adult she's calmed down. I guess it's not as enticing when I'm a head and a half taller than her and can retaliate with ten times the force. :downs: My dad though, an absolute saint. I have the utmost respect for my dad and I never disobeyed him because of it. He never laid a hand on me, quite the opposite he took a very relaxed approach to raising me, where he let me pick my own path in life as long as I was willing to stay responsible for any outcome it might produce. Treated me like an equal, basically.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52125442]I'm not backing it up with studies because I'm not pretentious enough to claim I've read several studies on a subject so disconnected from my daily life and my interests, let alone pretentious enough to claim others should agree with me simply because I linked them, knowing full well no one will actually sit down and read them if only for the fact they're behind a paywall. Every time someone just dumps like five or six links to various articles I always have the steaming suspicion that they just googled it and threw it in there as an easy "look I'm right the science men back me up" point. It's basic appeal to authority shenanigans that people utilize because they know no one actually takes the time to read through what can be up to a hundred pages of numbers, conclusions and results, let alone pay to access them.[/QUOTE] You can't handwave scientific studies as being "basic appeal to authority", science isn't some holy gospel dispensed by an elite that no one disputes. Science papers [I]depend[/I] on disproving untrue or inaccurate studies being incentivized. If a claim is disputable you will usually have other studies poking holes in it, and unless they're paywalled it's just as easy to look those up if you know what you're doing as it was for the other person to google them. If we were to apply your argument to any discussion then we'd completely ignore scientific studies in favor of personal feelings, I don't think I have to show why that's an unreasonable approach
The only time my parents ever spanked me was when I was definitely being a little shit and wouldn't calm down/shut up or was being really disrespectful. After they did it they explained why they did it.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52128682]You can't handwave scientific studies as being "basic appeal to authority", science isn't some holy gospel dispensed by an elite that no one disputes. Science papers [I]depend[/I] on disproving untrue or inaccurate studies being incentivized. If a claim is disputable you will usually have other studies poking holes in it, and unless they're paywalled it's just as easy to look those up if you know what you're doing as it was for the other person to google them. If we were to apply your argument to any discussion then we'd completely ignore scientific studies in favor of personal feelings, I don't think I have to show why that's an unreasonable approach[/QUOTE] If your parents brought you up with corporal punishment and you feel like you benefited off of it, would you believe studies over your own experience? Plus studies can't always be accurate with this kind of thing since every kid is different and will respond to things differently. If it worked for your grandparents, your parents, and you, why would you not do the same to your children? It goes back to the old saying: if it's not broken, don't try to fix it.
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52128775]If your parents brought you up with corporal punishment and you feel like you benefited off of it, would you believe studies over your own experience?[/quote] I'd be more inclined to believe statistical analysis than one's anecdotal experience. Just because it worked alright for you doesn't mean it was the optimal upbringing, you can't know whether it really benefitted you. However, you can compare between groups and the results they obtain using various forms of education through scientific studies. [Quote]Plus studies can't always be accurate with this kind of thing since every kid is different and will respond to things differently. If it worked for your grandparents, your parents, and you, why would you not do the same to your children? It goes back to the old saying: if it's not broken, don't try to fix it.[/QUOTE] Only it's not broken until it is. As you said, every kid is different, so why would your kid necessarily function the same way you do? Not knowing how it will affect your child, would you rather take the risk of damaging his trust and mental state or would you at least try a softer approach first and see how it goes rather than expect him to react the same way you did? "Better safe than sorry" is another old saying that seems more appropriate here.
If you're not capable of communicating ideas to your child without resorting to violence I hate to tell you but you're a bad parent. People who are defending it by saying 'oh just a couple spanks' are only trying to make themselves feel better about it
[QUOTE=_Axel;52128799]I'd be more inclined to believe statistical analysis than one's anecdotal experience. Just because it worked alright for you doesn't mean it was the optimal upbringing, you can't know whether it really benefitted you. However, you can compare between groups and the results they obtain using various forms of education through scientific studies. Only it's not broken until it is. As you said, every kid is different, so why would your kid necessarily function the same way you do? Not knowing how it will affect your child, would you rather take the risk of damaging his trust and mental state or would you at least try a softer approach first and see how it goes rather than expect him to react the same way you did? "Better safe than sorry" is another old saying that seems more appropriate here.[/QUOTE] I think anyone in this thread who supports the use of corporal punishment intends to use the "softer" approach unless it doesn't work. The fact that it sometimes doesn't work is why people use it, kids aren't dumb, they will sometimes continue to misbehave because the level of punishment you're using is of no large disadvantage to them, or they know whatever you've taken from them as punishment you're going to give back to them later on [editline]20th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=No Party Hats;52128980]If you're not capable of communicating ideas to your child without resorting to violence I hate to tell you but you're a bad parent. People who are defending it by saying 'oh just a couple spanks' are only trying to make themselves feel better about it[/QUOTE] It's not that people aren't capable of communicating their ideas, it's that the child won't listen. Don't be so small-minded, not all kids listen the same.
A counter-point to the "spanking is never okay even as a last resort"/"resorting to spanking means you've failed as a parent" camp: As a parent you have a responsibility to protect your child from everything and everyone, including the child themselves. Some children are recklessly self-endangering because at a young age they don't understand the concepts of death, serious injury, kidnapping, child rape, etc. If your kid is doing something that's continually putting them at serious risk, and all attempts at non-corporal punishment, reasoning, and prevention have failed, how long are you willing to keep rolling those dice? If worst comes to worst, can you say you did everything you could, that there was nothing more you could have tried? Can you really say you spared your child? Can you still say that you were a better parent? Like most things in life, parenting does not boil down to some simple binary answer and you can't act indiscriminately. Sometimes, because you love your kids and you need to protect them, you need to be the one that hurts them. Better your hand and a sore ass than a speeding car and their life.
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52128775]If your parents brought you up with corporal punishment and you feel like you benefited off of it, would you believe studies over your own experience? Plus studies can't always be accurate with this kind of thing since every kid is different and will respond to things differently. If it worked for your grandparents, your parents, and you, why would you not do the same to your children? It goes back to the old saying: if it's not broken, don't try to fix it.[/QUOTE] Who says it worked for prior generations? [editline]20th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Bathacker;52129005]A counter-point to the "spanking is never okay even as a last resort"/"resorting to spanking means you've failed as a parent" camp: As a parent you have a responsibility to protect your child from everything and everyone, including the child themselves. [B]Some children are recklessly self-endangering because at a young age they don't understand the concepts of death, serious injury, kidnapping, child rape, etc.[/B] If your kid is doing something that's continually putting them at serious risk, and all attempts at non-corporal punishment, reasoning, and prevention have failed,[B] how long are you willing to keep rolling those dice? [/B] If worst comes to worst, can you say you did everything you could, that there was nothing more you could have tried? Can you really say you spared your child? Can you still say that you were a better parent? Like most things in life, parenting does not boil down to some simple binary answer and you can't act indiscriminately. Sometimes, because you love your kids and you need to protect them, you need to be the one that hurts them. Better your hand and a sore ass than a speeding car and their life.[/QUOTE] If your child is old enough to be out of your or anyone else's view, they're old enough to understand those concepts.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;52129242] If your child is old enough to be out of your or anyone else's view, they're old enough to understand those concepts.[/QUOTE] What age do you think that is? [editline]20th April 2017[/editline] Do you really think you're going to be able to supervise your child 100% of the time until they're able to understand the full consequences of their actions? [editline]20th April 2017[/editline] The period of time between when a child is capable of dying of their own actions and the time when they understand death is on the order of years.
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52128996]It's not that people aren't capable of communicating their ideas, it's that the child won't listen. Don't be so small-minded, not all kids listen the same.[/QUOTE] I'd have to partly disagree on this. Not many children are incapable of listening. It's usually a matter of how the adult talks to the kid. In my experience the biggest mistake parents (or teachers or other adults really) make when trying to talk to kids about why what they did was wrong was because they tend to treat the kid like, well, a kid rather than as another human being. They lecture them and refuse to listen to their side of the story at all. Since the adults refuse to listen to them the kids get it in their heads that they shouldn't bother listening to the adults either or they simply get frustrated and, being kids, that makes it more difficult for them to take what's being said to heart.
I suppose you think a 3 year old understands the concept of respect and has the listening skills of a 20 year old then.
[QUOTE=The golden;52129426]Hitting the child almost always results from the parent loses their temper from trying to get their child to listen and just resorts to violence. You can flood me with as many dumbs as you want but that doesn't change the fact that doing this is shit parenting lol.[/QUOTE] What's dumb is you used the word "fact", when that's clearly your opinion. It doesn't almost always result from the parent losing their temper, many parents do this in a controlled manner, they choose this as the form of punishment, it doesn't just happen out of anger.
Even if a scientific study suggests something is true you can't just take it for gospel and apply it across every situation.
No no no no no. Never. EVER. Do that. To a child.
[QUOTE=The golden;52129724]When the general scientific consensus is that physical punishment is not effective and is actually often damaging - I think it's safe to say that you shouldn't do it. But by all means keep disagreeing and ignoring the evidence.[/QUOTE] Yes, generally, you shouldn't do it. I never disagreed with you, nor did I ignore the evidence, I just said you should apply discretion and not take a 100% hard-line stance because like I posted earlier there are exceptions to consider.
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