Physical punishment as a way of disciplining your children
170 replies, posted
Could I make myself a poll so I can understand people's stances?
Optimistic- never hit as a child
friendly- spanked or light punishment
Zing-Got hit with objects, like the belt
Informative-parents beat you
disagree- Parents very often beat you, and maybe put you in a hole, and worse, and so on.
Whenever I bring up the fact that my father gave me some spanking for being a little shit and a possible danger to someone, I always get someone telling me "Oh, your father is disgusting. You probably still hate him don't you?"
I do not.
It sure is fun having some schmuck tell me my father is a repulsive person and a failure as a parent just because he dared to raise his arm at me. With him being a Latino, the way they raise children is different and yes, I can see it being treated as cruel and unnecessary.
I don't condone hurting a child as it can have very harsh ramifications to their mental health in the future. But I also do not approve of generalizing every parent to be a failure just because you disagree with their way of raising a child.
My parents spanked me, but never out of anger or unwillingness to explain. I understood the rules and I understood that I was breaking them. I just didn't care when I was that little. That put me in harm's way more often than not.
So yeah, they did their best. I don't blame them. I was their firstborn, they weren't well off and didn't have a lot of help, and I was every parent's worst nightmare. They kept me alive and loved me a lot my entire life.
It's almost like they were really good parents besides.
[editline]20th April 2017[/editline]
And before anyone jumps me I'm not saying spanking makes someone a good parent, it just means you're not automatically a bad or abusive one. Conversely, not spanking your kid doesn't automatically make you a good parent or not abusive.
Parenting is a lot more complex than that. Spanking is bad but it's also becoming a pretty ridiculous scapegoat.
[QUOTE=The golden;52129426]If your child isn't listening to you then there is something else that is wrong. The two most common problems are A) The parent doesn't know how to communicate with their child properly and B) The child does not respect the parent.
Hitting the child almost always results from the parent loses their temper from trying to get their child to listen and just resorts to violence. You can flood me with as many dumbs as you want but that doesn't change the fact that doing this is shit parenting lol.[/QUOTE]
This is one hundred percent the case. If your kid isn't listening you either need to establish a ground floor of respect or you need to talk to a doctor because your kid has an attention disorder. Fucking listen to yourselves, you seriously think that hitting your kid is a good solution in these cases? That's draconian as fuck
Visiting a child behavior specialist (or even doing some research on the internet) is probably a better first step than physical punishment if your child is having problems listening to that extent.
Even if a kid listens to you there's no guarantee that they're going to understand or follow what you have to say, especially if they're throwing a tantrum. Everything can just go out the window in an instant.
[editline]21st April 2017[/editline]
Just saying it's not some perfect option people are deliberately avoiding.
I just think that using violence to solve problems of those you're supposed to be a mentor figure to, is going to lead to long term problems and cause more issues than it "solves". You gotta spend healthy time with kids and teach them how to have healthy relationships. A healthy relationship does not use violence to solve conflicts, you solve the conflicts how you would with most anyone else. Kids are more likely to listen to someone they feel safe around and can trust than someone they feel anxious around.
Here's an example situation from a friend's child psychology textbook.
You and your child are spectating a marathon. You have instructed your child to remain with you during the race but as the large crowd of runners begins passing by, your child begins trying to run out to join them where they risk being trampled. You stop them, but they begin to tantrum and fight you, swinging their arms and legs wildly, thrashing and squirming to get out of your grip, screaming and crying and refusing to listen. You are unsure if you can hold onto your child or pursue them quickly if they get loose.
In this case, where the rules and boundaries have been clearly defined, where attempts to keep the child within bounds has failed or are failing, and where breaking the bounds presents an imminent danger to the child, the textbook argues that administering a physical punishment such as a spanking is appropriate to redirect the child's attention and enforce the boundary.
I thought this would be an interesting scenario to discuss on.
[QUOTE=Bathacker;52132230]Here's an example situation from a friend's child psychology textbook.
You and your child are spectating a marathon. You have instructed your child to remain with you during the race but as the large crowd of runners begins passing by, your child begins trying to run out to join them where they risk being trampled. You stop them, but they begin to tantrum and fight you, swinging their arms and legs wildly, thrashing and squirming to get out of your grip, screaming and crying and refusing to listen. You are unsure if you can hold onto your child or pursue them quickly if they get loose.
In this case, where the rules and boundaries have been clearly defined, where attempts to keep the child within bounds has failed or are failing, and where breaking the bounds presents an imminent danger to the child, the textbook argues that administering a physical punishment such as a spanking is appropriate to redirect the child's attention and enforce the boundary.
I thought this would be an interesting scenario to discuss on.[/QUOTE]
Look up CPI Restraint training. It's applicable mostly for staff members of places with kids but parents can absolutely utilize those tools if such an incident should occur.
You don't need to spank your kid when you can safely restrain them to keep them from getting hurt. It takes just a little bit of research to learn about these techniques.
The stuff that school or after school care staff learns is invaluable for both teachers [I]and[/I] parents. And these resources are everywhere.
[editline]21st April 2017[/editline]
Not quite the same but similar to how you would train a pet for a perfect recall before letting them off-lease in any vicinity, you want to make sure your child is prepared for safety in any environment. Accidents happen and children are wild horses at the best of times, but establishing rules and boundaries early on can prevent these things from happening in the first place.
[editline]21st April 2017[/editline]
On that note, if someone decides to spank their kid or give them a light tap on the wrist I'm not gonna intervene and claim child abuse, but I'd much rather be prepared with a variety of non-violent techniques before I ever resort to hitting my own kid in any capacity.
[editline]21st April 2017[/editline]
For "being out in public" prep, a technique like this one would even work. It's SuperNanny but that show had a lot of good tips without resorting to spanking or hitting. Not all of them will work for every family, but it's worth looking up.
[video=youtube;kmPPY21njuc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmPPY21njuc[/video]
Before you take your kid to a marathon and allow them to be without hand holding or physical supervision, make sure they know the rules of being out in public first and foremost. People don't tend to take that into consideration before they start toting their kid around in public, but it's a crucial step. Kids need to have consistent boundaries before you expect them to follow them.
[QUOTE=Pascall;52132327]-post-[/QUOTE]
All very good points and great information to put into practice.
This kind of knowledge should be a lot more common.
I guess my main gripe with the argument in this and similar is that spanking is purely an aggressive and abusive action. That no parent would hit their kid unless they explicitly wanted to do harm. I disagree and say that parents can have good intentions to protect or control their child the best they know how.
That being said, it's apparent that good intentions can still be tainted with ignorant action. I definitely had no idea child-specific restraint techniques existed although it's obvious in retrospect. I'm convinced, there's a lot more to research and try before any last resort actions.
I think it's less that it's aggressive/abuse by default than the fact that there are so many other nonviolent methods of behavior management that parents can utilize before resorting to that, yeah.
Parents should be prepared to be parents, even if their kid was an accident. Generally they have enough time during infanthood to look things up about coming childhood and how kids sort of function and interact with the world. You don't have to be an expert or anything - no parent is - but the more informed you are, the more likely it'll be that you can prevent behavioral issues before they come up.
[QUOTE=The Jack;52129893]Could I make myself a poll so I can understand people's stances?
Optimistic- never hit as a child
friendly- spanked or light punishment
Zing-Got hit with objects, like the belt
Informative-parents beat you
disagree- Parents very often beat you, and maybe put you in a hole, and worse, and so on.[/QUOTE]
Seeing that I am the only 'zinger' I thought I'd chip in to the discussion. I was being hit as a child, abused both emotionally and physically, lots of good old spanks and belts. It is never a good idea to resort to that, what I learned from it was to fear my parents and how to hate with my whole heart and mind. Many years later and I have next to zero trust towards both of my parents, and my emotional attachment is almost none. Maybe I was a hard child, but I don't remember my parents ever talking with a professional about that, and why to if.you can resort to violent belting in anger?
Please if you are reading this and finding yourself hitting your child go to a fucking doctor, thanks.
Yeah, looking back on it, all physical punishment ever really did for me was make me afraid of my parents and made it hard for me to trust them, especially when it was compounded with that angry lecture voice. Still can't talk to them about shit. Still anxious of being in the same room with them for too long. I don't remember what I did wrong, I don't remember what the lesson was supposed to be, but I do remember quite vividly just how [I]terrified[/I] I always was
One of my clearest childhood memories was sitting with my mother doing something. Don't remember what, I just dimly remember that I was already in trouble for something. Dad got angry about something else I guess I had done and yelled my name as he came thundering through up the stairs
I fucking [I]bolted[/I]. I was on my feet and out the door in seconds. Didn't stop running until I was in the woods right after sunset with no shoes trying so hard not to cry because I was terrified that my dad was about to come crashing through the trees after me and crying would make it easier for him to find me. I have a [I]ton[/I] of memories like that
Mind you, my parents weren't even what I would call outright abusive. I wasn't subjected to any sort of extraordinary physical discipline or abuse. I was just spanked. Sometimes with a wooden spoon, sometimes with a belt, and yeah that's awful but it's not exactly like they were going out of their way to cause as much pain and fear as possible. It was just what people often consider routine discipline, and I still have nightmares about it
It didn't really do much to offset my poor behavior, either. Mostly it just made me better at hiding it and made lying second nature
I think people gravely underestimate just how terrifying an angry parent can be to a child. Especially when you throw physical violence into the mix
Don't hit your kids. If your kids are being little shits, you should be trying to understand [I]why[/I] they're being little shits and how you can possibly make them understand they're being little shit instead of just hauling them over the knee and hitting them
I would say physically don't really have any good things about it.
Even if my kid did something really bad, I would rather tell them and go the mile to take away something they want or hinder them in a way to have fun, so they understand the responsibilities they face if it's like, really bad. (Like, go to your room, go to bed, make some stuff off limits for a while and so on)
Slighty off topic but since we're talking about it I remember my dad telling me as a kid his grandmother used to beat him with a fucking [B]handheld vacuum [/B]
snip
My brother and I had always had the worse punishments in the family. And my mom was an extremely strict person that would whip me at any point she 'suspected I was out of line'. My dad also had a lot of anger problems. I would't get whipped by a belt [from him], but often whenever he's angry at me he would grab/lift me by the arm so tightly that I would have bruises from it. I remember my dad kicking me once but cant really remember what that was for. Sometimes I'd get beaten before I could even explain to them I did nothing wrong. Of all this the yelling and fear, bruising was what I remember the most.
If I cried, which I did a lot, I would get beaten/threatened for crying. My mom would always say shit like 'You guys are so lucky you weren't raised by my parents because you would have it so much worse'. She definitely ruled the home with fear, anger, and violence. I would get hit for shit like not doing [any chivalrous act you can come up with here]. She was a major hypocrite, unreasonable, and selfish. These things did have a weird affect on me; I never turned out to be violent or an angry person, but I became extremely reluctant to express any emotion([U]especially[/U] if I'm around my mom) because she made me resent having them. If you look at any family photo of me I never ever smile, and I that's because 1, it was one way of 'passively' defying my mom & 2,[see above line]. In middle school I blamed 'emotions' for my parents violent behavior, and I felt that as long as I could feel emotions I would eventually become like them. I would often think about fucked up things I could do to desensitize my mind to everything in order to feel nothing, and I became kinda antisocial & [I]slightly[/I] masochistic.
My siblings didn't have it as bad and at some point my parents became self aware, my dad got help with his anger, mom & dad became kinder, and more lax. I didn't even like my siblings because they had it so much easier than me, they could get away with profanity and all sorts of shit that had I done at their age, i'd be on the street.
My relationship with my parents is kinda neutral now because they have done a lot of good for me recently but I cant overlook a lot the other things. I envy my friends & cousins that are close with their families its like they are all friends but its beyond my imagination to even picture that happening to my family.
If you're having to resort to physical punishment, it means you failed somewhere along the line with your parenting and it you want to continue failing.
If your kids only do what you ask because they fear you, then you're not a good role model.
From my experiences with many families, there appears to be a correlation with physical punishments and dysfunctional families.
[QUOTE=Anteep;52140369]If you're having to resort to physical punishment, it means you failed somewhere along the line with your parenting and it you want to continue failing.[/QUOTE]
Isn't it great judging other parents' decisions when you have no idea that certain kids will [B]not[/B] listen regardless of what other punishment you give them? Pain is something no kid wants to feel, and understandably for some parents they resort to this because the rest doesn't work. It doesn't mean you've failed as a parent, it just means that certain situations require being handled differently.
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52140385]Isn't it great judging other parents' decisions when you have no idea that certain kids will [B]not[/B] listen regardless of what other punishment you give them? Pain is something no kid wants to feel, and understandably for some parents they resort to this because the rest doesn't work. It doesn't mean you've failed as a parent, it just means that certain situations require being handled differently.[/QUOTE]
A child's behavior is a direct reflection of their environment and the parent's methods raising them
Children aren't just born and a switch is flipped somewhere that makes them either sweet little angels or belligerent hellions, they learn these behaviors as they grow and observe and interact with the world around them. Children are [I]constantly[/I] learning and figuring out how to be people, and they're going to take their biggest cues from their parents
If a child's behavior is really so consistently terrible that physical violence seems to be the only possible recourse, I think it's really worth wondering about the why before just bending them over the knee because 'they've got to learn'
Kids are smarter and more perceptive than people generally give them credit for. Like I said, they're still learning to be people, and they pick up a [I]lot[/I] from their parents and the things they do. Every little thing your parents when you were a child has had some sort of effect on your behavior at some point in your life
Kids don't act out just for the sake of being miserable little shits. Kids act out because they don't have many avenues for self-expression and they haven't quite developed the full set of mental and emotional tools that adults take for granted. I cannot stress enough how important that 'still learning to be people' thing is when it comes to child behavior
If a parent has to resort to violence because 'the rest doesn't work' then I'm inclined to think that they absolutely have failed as parents in some way. Yes, certain situations should be handled differently, but you've been given plenty of examples why just hauling off and smacking the kid is a pretty terrible way to handle the situation because of its questionable effectiveness and potential for long-term damage
The tired old line of 'well some kids just won't learn!' is, at best, a lazy excuse to not have to put any serious thought or effort into parenting and a refusal to take responsibility for one's own actions. It's taking for granted all those years you spent as a child learning how to be a person and developing the mental and emotional tools you have as an adult and learning how and when to use them
[QUOTE=Sitkero;52140622]A child's behavior is a direct reflection of their environment and the parent's methods raising them
Children aren't just born and a switch is flipped somewhere that makes them either sweet little angels or belligerent hellions, they learn these behaviors as they grow and observe and interact with the world around them. Children are [I]constantly[/I] learning and figuring out how to be people, and they're going to take their biggest cues from their parents
If a child's behavior is really so consistently terrible that physical violence seems to be the only possible recourse, I think it's really worth wondering about the why before just bending them over the knee because 'they've got to learn'
Kids are smarter and more perceptive than people generally give them credit for. Like I said, they're still learning to be people, and they pick up a [I]lot[/I] from their parents and the things they do. Every little thing your parents when you were a child has had some sort of effect on your behavior at some point in your life
Kids don't act out just for the sake of being miserable little shits. Kids act out because they don't have many avenues for self-expression and they haven't quite developed the full set of mental and emotional tools that adults take for granted. I cannot stress enough how important that 'still learning to be people' thing is when it comes to child behavior
If a parent has to resort to violence because 'the rest doesn't work' then I'm inclined to think that they absolutely have failed as parents in some way. Yes, certain situations should be handled differently, but you've been given plenty of examples why just hauling off and smacking the kid is a pretty terrible way to handle the situation because of its questionable effectiveness and potential for long-term damage
The tired old line of 'well some kids just won't learn!' is, at best, a lazy excuse to not have to put any serious thought or effort into parenting and a refusal to take responsibility for one's own actions. It's taking for granted all those years you spent as a child learning how to be a person and developing the mental and emotional tools you have as an adult and learning how and when to use them[/QUOTE]
At some point you will be in the situation of being a parent and your kid won't listen to you. You'll try your fancy mental strategies and tricks and they might not work. What do you do then? You're just going to let the kid get its own way and wave a white flag? Of course physical punishment is a last resort, it shouldn't have to come to that, but sometimes it needs to. No one has failed as a parent by doing it, it just means they were put into a situation where they exhausted the rest of their options.
I've been thinking that perhaps, just for the hell of it; that if I ever see somebody smack their child in public then I would go give the parent a smack and ask them how it feels now.
[QUOTE=Sunday_Roast;52140732]I've been thinking that perhaps, just for the hell of it; that if I ever see somebody smack their child in public then I would go give the parent a smack and ask them how it feels now.[/QUOTE]
And you'd get arrested. I've already addressed this point on the previous page:
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52127031]Generally you don't need to teach adults basic respect… usually with an adult you tell them something and they'll do it, kids aren't that simple. This is again comparing apples to oranges.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52140715]At some point you will be in the situation of being a parent and your kid won't listen to you. You'll try your fancy mental strategies and tricks and they might not work. What do you do then? You're just going to let the kid get its own way and wave a white flag? Of course physical punishment is a last resort, it shouldn't have to come to that, but sometimes it needs to. No one has failed as a parent by doing it, it just means they were put into a situation where they exhausted the rest of their options.[/QUOTE]
Treating a child like a tiny person who's still trying to learn how to be a person and trying to lay a solid groundwork of patience, support, and understanding is 'fancy mental strategies and tricks'?
What, exactly, makes violence a foregone conclusion? How is it not the fault of the parent if violence genuinely becomes the only option available? Bearing in mind just how heavily influenced the behavior of a child is by their environment and how much they pick up from their parents
[QUOTE=Sitkero;52140815]Treating a child like a tiny person who's still trying to learn how to be a person and trying to lay a solid groundwork of patience, support, and understanding is 'fancy mental strategies and tricks'?
What, exactly, makes violence a foregone conclusion? How is it not the fault of the parent if violence genuinely becomes the only option available? Bearing in mind just how heavily influenced the behavior of a child is by their environment and how much they pick up from their parents[/QUOTE]
It's not always the fault of the parent, because like you said they're heavily influenced by many things, and this is not just what's picked up from their own parents. Maybe they have been influenced by something out of your control and as a result, they won't listen to you.
Thinking that a "solid groundwork of patience, support, and understanding" is always going to work, is viewing parenthood through rose-tinted glasses, it just doesn't always work out this way
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52140858]It's not always the fault of the parent, because like you said they're heavily influenced by many things, and this is not just what's picked up from their own parents. Maybe they have been influenced by something out of your control and as a result, they won't listen to you.
Thinking that a "solid groundwork of patience, support, and understanding" is always going to work, is viewing parenthood through rose-tinted glasses, it just doesn't always work out this way[/QUOTE]
It's true that children are influenced by many things, but far and above the [I]biggest[/I] things that influence them are their own parents, given that those influences are the ones they're going to be spending the most time around during key points of development. Obstinate and disruptive behaviors aren't going to be built overnight, and even with significant outside influence it still takes reinforcement of some kind on the part of the parents in order to set those behaviors far enough in stone that physical violence somehow becomes a necessity
A child being significantly influenced by an outside source to the point where they will outright refuse to listen to the parent still sounds an awful lot to me like a failure of parenting. While small children do tend to be strong willed and it's unavoidable that there's going to be some butting of heads, this is, once again, because they're still learning how to be people and trying out new concepts, and I've already pointed out the myriad reasons why it's a terrible idea to hit a child at this critical point of development
Pointing at some vague outside influence out of the parent's control is not an excuse. It's the responsibility of the parent to be a consistent and reliable presence in a child's life. If an outside influence has eroded their relationship with the child that things get that bad, one sort of has to wonder how it happened in the first place
And don't talk to me about rose-colored glasses when you say shit like this
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52127031][B]Generally you don't need to teach adults basic respect[/B]… usually with an adult you tell them something and they'll do it, kids aren't that simple. This is again comparing apples to oranges.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Sitkero;52141001]It's true that children are influenced by many things, but far and above the [I]biggest[/I] things that influence them are their own parents, given that those influences are the ones they're going to be spending the most time around during key points of development. Obstinate and disruptive behaviors aren't going to be built overnight, and even with significant outside influence it still takes reinforcement of some kind on the part of the parents in order to set those behaviors far enough in stone that physical violence somehow becomes a necessity
A child being significantly influenced by an outside source to the point where they will outright refuse to listen to the parent still sounds an awful lot to me like a failure of parenting. While small children do tend to be strong willed and it's unavoidable that there's going to be some butting of heads, this is, once again, because they're still learning how to be people and trying out new concepts, and I've already pointed out the myriad reasons why it's a terrible idea to hit a child at this critical point of development
Pointing at some vague outside influence out of the parent's control is not an excuse. It's the responsibility of the parent to be a consistent and reliable presence in a child's life. If an outside influence has eroded their relationship with the child that things get that bad, one sort of has to wonder how it happened in the first place
And don't talk to me about rose-colored glasses when you say shit like this[/QUOTE]
There are an abundance of parents that have brought kids up fine through using physical punishment, have these parents failed at parenting? What classes as failing at parenting? Plenty of kids that have experienced physical punishment go on to lead happy, normal lives, I wouldn't say their parents failed.
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52141064]There are an abundance of parents that have brought kids up fine through using physical punishment, have these parents failed at parenting? What classes as failing at parenting? Plenty of kids that have experienced physical punishment go on to lead happy, normal lives, I wouldn't say their parents failed.[/QUOTE]
Yes. I do think they've failed at parenting on at least one level. You've already been given multiple examples of the lasting impact physical punishment can leave and those examples are [I]far[/I] from rare and isolated cases
In my experience, people who insist that they turned out just fine either in spite of physical punishment or [I]because[/I] of physical punishment tend to have a lot of the same issues. Difficulty with emotional openness and honesty, trust issues, anxiety, depression, and a whole host of others
I think 'going on to lead happy, normal lives' is a piss poor metric to judge by. Humans have phenomenal coping and recovery skills, especially when provided with adequate support. It's not uncommon for survivors of traumatic events to go on to lead happy, normal lives. Does that mean the traumatic events were somehow less traumatic?
What about the abundance of children brought up with physical punishment that didn't turn out 'fine'? The sort who struggle daily with things like anxiety and depression and suicidal thoughts as a direct result of their parents' influence? What about the abundance of children who were brought up without physical discipline but turned out fine anyway?
[QUOTE=Sitkero;52141351]Yes. I do think they've failed at parenting on at least one level. You've already been given multiple examples of the lasting impact physical punishment can leave and those examples are [I]far[/I] from rare and isolated cases
In my experience, people who insist that they turned out just fine either in spite of physical punishment or [I]because[/I] of physical punishment tend to have a lot of the same issues. Difficulty with emotional openness and honesty, trust issues, anxiety, depression, and a whole host of others
I think 'going on to lead happy, normal lives' is a piss poor metric to judge by. Humans have phenomenal coping and recovery skills, especially when provided with adequate support. It's not uncommon for survivors of traumatic events to go on to lead happy, normal lives. Does that mean the traumatic events were somehow less traumatic?
What about the abundance of children brought up with physical punishment that didn't turn out 'fine'? The sort who struggle daily with things like anxiety and depression and suicidal thoughts as a direct result of their parents' influence? What about the abundance of children who were brought up without physical discipline but turned out fine anyway?[/QUOTE]
Have you ever heard of tough love? Sometimes it's necessary, sorry to say, but it's just naive and idealistic to think all kids can just be talked to like a little kitten and expect them to listen. I've seen kids who get sweet talked by their parents, they speak in a soft tone and don't do anything while the kids tears shit apart. If you won the kid lottery and have receptive children who respond well to that kind of thing, cool. But some kids are little shits and know exactly what buttons to push.
[QUOTE=Richardroth;52141469]Have you ever heard of tough love? Sometimes it's necessary, sorry to say, but it's just naive and idealistic to think all kids can just be talked to like a little kitten and expect them to listen. I've seen kids who get sweet talked by their parents, they speak in a soft tone and don't do anything while the kids tears shit apart. If you won the kid lottery and have receptive children who respond well to that kind of thing, cool. But some kids are little shits and know exactly what buttons to push.[/QUOTE]
There's no "kid lottery", the behavior of your children depends on how you brought them up.
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