• My girlfriend of three years just confessed to me that she used to be a man
    913 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37682962]Because why try to educate the offenders? That's stupid![/QUOTE] Again, there's a difference between education and clearly spouting your opinion against theirs - fighting fire with fire as it were. If you're to educate, or help someone to change their mind, you shouldn't use strawman arguments nor should you go on back and forth for 10 or so pages of a thread going off on different people. Really if people want to learn, to be educated, they'll do it on their terms. Nothing you can do to change that, but obviously this concept is far too much to take in.
[QUOTE=HHBlackhawk;37682981]Again, there's a difference between education and clearly spouting your opinion against theirs - fighting fire with fire as it were. If you're to educate, or help someone to change their mind, you shouldn't use strawman arguments nor should you go on back and forth for 10 or so pages of a thread going off on different people. Really if people want to learn, to be educated, they'll do it on their terms. Nothing you can do to change that, but obviously this concept is far too much to take in.[/QUOTE] But if we don't do anything than no one is going to move forward. This is why movements of any type exists.
[QUOTE=HHBlackhawk;37682981]Again, there's a difference between education and clearly spouting your opinion against theirs - fighting fire with fire as it were. If you're to educate, or help someone to change their mind, you shouldn't use strawman arguments nor should you go on back and forth for 10 or so pages of a thread going off on different people. Really if people want to learn, to be educated, they'll do it on their terms. Nothing you can do to change that, but obviously this concept is far too much to take in.[/QUOTE] Education and suppression of offenders should be more or less morphed together, while certainly not taking the form of needless aggravation.
[QUOTE=HHBlackhawk;37682981]Again, there's a difference between education and clearly spouting your opinion against theirs - fighting fire with fire as it were. If you're to educate, or help someone to change their mind, you shouldn't use strawman arguments nor should you go on back and forth for 10 or so pages of a thread going off on different people. Really if people want to learn, to be educated, they'll do it on their terms. Nothing you can do to change that, but obviously this concept is far too much to take in.[/QUOTE] Where was there a strawman argument? And you would assume that even if it doesn't chAbfe their minds at this very moment, maybe they'll remember some of this for future reference. Also "obviously too much to take in"? Get over yourself.
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;37683003]But if we don't do anything than no one is going to move forward. This is why movements of any type exists.[/QUOTE] And last I checked, most movements got things done through peaceful protesting instead of saying "THIS IS WRONG AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD FOR SAYING IT!". You won't get through to anyone with a bigoted opinion that way.
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;37683003]But if we don't do anything than no one is going to move forward. This is why movements of any type exists.[/QUOTE] I'm sure you'll see if you look at any past Rights Movement, that noone was really seen as "normal" by "society's standards" until they stopped protesting, doing brash things, and started proving that they [i]could[/i] be "normal" in society. Of course this is going to sound barbaric and conservative as fuck, but it's the human condition. People won't see others they think as "different" to be the same as them until they see the people coexisting without conflict or coincidence in their lives. Also pushing your opinions on people as you are is only going to make the people you talk to more prone to hate what you stand for. Again, the human condition.
-snip i shouldn't he here
[QUOTE=don818;37683047]-snip i shouldn't he here[/QUOTE] I don't know why but that lit up my day.
[QUOTE=HHBlackhawk;37683032]People won't see others they think as "different" to be the same as them until they see the people coexisting without conflict or coincidence in their lives.[/QUOTE] That's really difficult to do when they won't let you do so.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;37683062]I don't know why but that lit up my day.[/QUOTE] fuck you i had a lot of irhs coffee [editline]15th September 2012[/editline] irish fuck
[QUOTE=don818;37683071]fuck you i had a lot of irhs coffee [editline]15th September 2012[/editline] irish fuck[/QUOTE] Was it alcoholic coffee
fuck i need out
[QUOTE=Onyx3173;37683063]That's really difficult to do when they won't let you do so.[/QUOTE] This is a valid point, but what I have a problem with is those transgenders who announce it to the whole world as if they should care, then get attacked for it and complain. Honestly, it comes off as being a fetish to those less educated, and it really does serve as a basis for why people dislike transgenders as they do. I support transgenders and their rights, as I know a good few of them and we're great friends, but on the same coin I have a hard time standing up for those who denounce the whole group. That and "white knights", though I mean again the fighting fire with fire type arguments. Noone's going to win there and really you're just laying the foundation for bigger and bigger instances to happen as was seen here.
[QUOTE=don818;37683092]WHAT THE FUCK IS IRISH COFFEE NIGGER?[/QUOTE] Is it alchoholic
[QUOTE=HHBlackhawk;37683032]I'm sure you'll see if you look at any past Rights Movement, that noone was really seen as "normal" by "society's standards" until they stopped protesting, doing brash things, and started proving that they [i]could[/i] be "normal" in society. Of course this is going to sound barbaric and conservative as fuck, but it's the human condition. People won't see others they think as "different" to be the same as them until they see the people coexisting without conflict or coincidence in their lives. Also pushing your opinions on people as you are is only going to make the people you talk to more prone to hate what you stand for. Again, the human condition.[/QUOTE] Assuming that it is some type of unbreakable human condition only further perpetuates and solidifies the mindset that it is an unbreakable human condition. People should not revolve themselves around a society, society should revolve itself around people. And if anything, many people in this thread are not conflicting or enforcing anything upon anyone, we are calmly and politely performing damage control while hopefully voluntarily changing people's positions. People with less common sexuality types always had the capacity of existing within a society in a healthy manner, unfortunately needless ignorance, locked mindsets, and other forceful types of thinking keep preventing that from happening. A natural sense of "human normality" is one thing, unnecessary ignorance is another thing.
[QUOTE=don818;37683092]WHAT THE FUCK IS IRISH COFFEE NIGGER[/QUOTE] Nice racism Shaina.
[QUOTE=HHBlackhawk;37683101]This is a valid point, but what I have a problem with is those transgenders who announce it to the whole world as if they should care, then get attacked for it and complain. Honestly, it comes off as being a fetish to those less educated, and it really does serve as a basis for why people dislike transgenders as they do. I support transgenders and their rights, as I know a good few of them and we're great friends, but on the same coin I have a hard time standing up for those who denounce the whole group. That and "white knights", though I mean again the fighting fire with fire type arguments. Noone's going to win there and really you're just laying the foundation for bigger and bigger instances to happen as was seen here.[/QUOTE] I agree that "fighting fire with fire" isn't the correct way of doing things but outside of discussions such as this one or other trans related threads you won't really see trans people making a huge deal about being trans unless someone else is saying negative things about trans people that are ignorant. And while people should try and keep their cool about it, it's only natural that they would get frustrated quickly with someone who they know to be wrong but can't convince otherwise. As for those who are less educated, that's a matter of that sort of person being uncomfortable with anyone who is different than themselves. That's why many people get bullied in school, that's why gays and blacks are still discriminated against today. They need to be taught better but those sorts are often extremely stubborn and stuck in their views.
[QUOTE=genkaz92;37683119]Assuming that it is some type of unbreakable human condition only further perpetuates and solidifies the mindset that it is an unbreakable human condition. People should not revolve themselves around a society, society should revolve itself around people. And if anything, many people in this thread are not conflicting or enforcing anything upon anyone, we are calmly and politely performing damage control while hopefully voluntarily changing people's positions. People with less common sexuality types always had the capacity of existing within a society in a healthy manner, unfortunately needless ignorance, locked mindsets, and other forceful types of thinking keep preventing that from happening. A natural sense of "human normality" is one thing, unnecessary ignorance is another thing.[/QUOTE] Oh it's definitely not an unbreakable part of the human mind nor psyche, but it's something society needs time to adapt to. Giving people a reason to dislike you and your people doesn't help the issue for sure. And I agree about society, society is an excuse for bigots and those less fortunate in terms of capacity for human relations to single out those unlike themselves.
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37683123]Nice racism Shaina.[/QUOTE] >implying racism. lolk
[QUOTE=HHBlackhawk;37683101]This is a valid point, but what I have a problem with is those transgenders who announce it to the whole world as if they should care, then get attacked for it and complain. Honestly, it comes off as being a fetish to those less educated, and it really does serve as a basis for why people dislike transgenders as they do. I support transgenders and their rights, as I know a good few of them and we're great friends, but on the same coin I have a hard time standing up for those who denounce the whole group. That and "white knights", though I mean again the fighting fire with fire type arguments. Noone's going to win there and really you're just laying the foundation for bigger and bigger instances to happen as was seen here.[/QUOTE] People frequently dislike transgenders for the very same reasons of misinformation, disinformation, and unfounded assumptions, which should partially be healed by gradual spread of information and understanding.
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37683123]Nice racism Shaina.[/QUOTE] you realize when most people say nigger they're joking right
Uh... okay I read the whole thread and I learned quite a bit about... transgenderism I think it's called? (I pretty much read it with a dumbfounded look on my face) I literally have no knowledge about the topic but interesting read nonetheless. As for the OP, I guess stay with her unless you really really really want kids or something. I don't see that much of a problem. and as Cl0cK said, at least you don't have to use a condom :v:
[QUOTE=Onyx3173;37683129]I agree that "fighting fire with fire" isn't the correct way of doing things but outside of discussions such as this one or other trans related threads you won't really see trans people making a huge deal about being trans unless someone else is saying negative things about trans people that are ignorant. And while people should try and keep their cool about it, it's only natural that they would get frustrated quickly with someone who they know to be wrong but can't convince otherwise. As for those who are less educated, that's a matter of that sort of person being uncomfortable with anyone who is different than themselves. That's why many people get bullied in school, that's why gays and blacks are still discriminated against today. They need to be taught better but those sorts are often extremely stubborn and stuck in their views.[/QUOTE] I enjoy bouncing opinions back and forth with you. We should go get an Irish coffee sometime. v:v:v I see where you're coming from all the time and I have to say I agree. Getting upset over opinions like this is definitely going to happen, but it's unfortunate that it had to be dragged out so long. Of course I'm not helping my own cause by talking, but oh well.
[QUOTE=HHBlackhawk;37683135]Oh it's definitely not an unbreakable part of the human mind nor psyche, but it's something society needs time to adapt to. Giving people a reason to dislike you and your people doesn't help the issue for sure. And I agree about society, society is an excuse for bigots and those less fortunate in terms of capacity for human relations to single out those unlike themselves.[/QUOTE] It is virtually impossible to bring over a truly large positive change without stirring someone up, no matter how gently it is done. And frankly it is difficult to blame someone resulting to approaches which are not as gentle, who is consistently uncomfortable and genuinely oppressed. The verdict is that the issue needs to be slowly but surely solved.
Slowly isn't always the best way tbh. Just means more people have to suffer longer for no reason other than people's idiocy.
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37683241]Slowly isn't always the best way tbh.[/QUOTE] But it's the only way to achieve any meaningful change. A great example is racism, it's still not completely abolished from mankind, but it has made great strides in the years the movement against it has gone on. This is absolutely no different. People don't change overnight, just a rule of thumb.
[QUOTE=HHBlackhawk;37683262]But it's the only way to achieve any meaningful change. A great example is racism, it's still not completely abolished from mankind, but it has made great strides in the years the movement against it has gone on. This is absolutely no different. People don't change overnight, just a rule of thumb.[/QUOTE] But big massive rights movement such as MLK and Rosa Parks and various other people kickstarted the whole meaningful slow changes, trans people and genderqueer people need a kickstart to their rights movement too.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;37682810]I put myself in a transgendered person's shoes. I would ask myself (not aloud) "If I was a transgendered person, and I was told that nobody would date me because I can't have children, would I be offended?" I would say "No, because there is more fish in the sea. There would be people who would want no children and just a soulmate"[/QUOTE] Wow you have great coping mechanisms If I was in love with someone and we'd been going out for three years and then suddenly they cut me off because of something that was completely outside my control, I would be devastated. [QUOTE=HHBlackhawk;37683032]I'm sure you'll see if you look at any past Rights Movement, that noone was really seen as "normal" by "society's standards" until they stopped protesting, doing brash things, and started proving that they [I]could[/I] be "normal" in society. Of course this is going to sound barbaric and conservative as fuck, but it's the human condition. People won't see others they think as "different" to be the same as them until they see the people coexisting without conflict or coincidence in their lives. Also pushing your opinions on people as you are is only going to make the people you talk to more prone to hate what you stand for. Again, the human condition.[/QUOTE] No, that's not what happens at all. Usually you have the initial phase where the people are trying to get by as best they can. So, black people putting up with Jim Crow laws and oh lawdy massah please don't hit me, women putting up with being subservient to men and well I don't really want to vote that badly, gay people putting up with criminalisation of homosexuality and hmm if I don't get caught sucking dick everything will be ok, transgender people dealing with being seen as aberrant weirdos on the fringes of society and well I guess if I don't get caught "crossdressing" things will be fine. Then you have the kicking off phase. Race rallies, suffragettes, Stonewall etc These continue until some sort of legal and cultural response is recognised. Then maybe you have that toned down. Nobody ever achieved anything by going [SUP]"Hey look how normal we are don't mind us!"[/SUP]. You don't achieve anything until you get in peoples' faces, shout and scream and demand recognition. People see you as different and they're going to keep doing that until you stand up for yourself. If someone makes a bunch of racist remarks, you don't sit there and go "Hm if I'm just quietly black maybe he'll learn not to be racist" you report that cunt to an employment tribunal and get him fired and then he'll learn to keep his shitty mouth shut. Transgender people can get fired for being trans, they can be denied access to medical care (a lot of insurance policies in the US don't cover GRID and places like Sweden have pretty harsh requirements for this stuff), they face being punchlines to jokes (notice in the IT Crowd sketch the audience starts cracking up merely at the fact the woman is transgender), they face ridiculous legal loopholes (A woman in the US couldn't change her driving licence to reflect her true gender, so "he" took "his" top off and promptly got arrested for indecent exposure... of course it's only illegal for a woman to go topless like that), they face being treated like scum - any idea what that's like? People look at you and are DISGUSTED by you. They're REPULSED and spit on you. If they complain, "Well I didn't know it wanted to be called a she!" or "Trannies are rare, it's their job to educate ME! Why should I go out of my way to learn?" endlessly, day after day. Most of all transgender people face overwhelmingly being the victims of violence. Transgender people are beaten and murdered every day and often the news doesn't even bother to report it. So no, transgender people shouldn't roll over and play subservient nicey-nicey, they should be fucking pissed off. Enraged. They should shout from the rooftops and demand equality. I for one will be standing right next to them. And they need allies who will fight for them. Not two bit shitty friends who tell them to pipe down and play nice. How can you sit there and tell them to pander to the bigots? How are you not ENRAGED that innocent people are being murdered just for being trans? How do you not feel anger pumping through your veins at all the malice and all the bullshit trans people have to put up with? Just read through this thread - Facepunch has done pretty well for a web forum but look at the piles and piles of shitty comments trans people may well have read. How would that make them feel? Think if you were trans - how would you deal with this? I'd want to kill myself, it'd be too much for me. That's why so many trans people try suicide - can you blame them when you look at how shitty society is to trans people?
[QUOTE=HHBlackhawk;37683262]But it's the only way to achieve any meaningful change. A great example is racism, it's still not completely abolished from mankind, but it has made great strides in the years the movement against it has gone on. This is absolutely no different. People don't change overnight, just a rule of thumb.[/QUOTE] It's kind of a damned if you do damned if you dont thing. If you wait forever than there tons of unessecary pain. If you do it to quickly then it's more a psudeo change.
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37683241]Slowly isn't always the best way tbh. Just means more people have to suffer longer for no reason other than people's idiocy.[/QUOTE] By slowly I did not mean idly waiting by and intentionally moving inch by inch. I meant it in the sense of not being possible to change overnight, it is a slow process even if you are pushing as hard as you can to keep it in motion.
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