My girlfriend of three years just confessed to me that she used to be a man
913 replies, posted
[QUOTE=genkaz92;37700797]One of the main reasons why it is pissing you off is either due to ignorance, phobia, and or some type of other locked conditioned mindset set by a society (directly or indirectly), and changing/transforming these mindsets without bringing people out of their comfort zone is virtually impossible.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I understand how I am being conditioned by society to hate transsexuals when I have no real opinion either way of them other than ones who are obsessed with being different to other people and feel the need to try and show this by trying to shove their differentness down my throat. Though I can see how I previously attempted to convey that was fairly assholeish and I'm sorry for creating a page of pointless drama.
I guess that I should have learned not to bother debating on the internet by now.
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37700961]To have the correct mental state and such, would you not have to mimic the hormone cycles, I mean, you'd have to do it for the rest of your life I would presume. Your body is being fed different hormones than it is designed to produce, thus different effects.[/quote]
You don't have to mimic it. The hormones naturally start causing you to behave a little differently. It's a natural process.
[quote]I'd like to see this study, but proving something within the human brain is very very difficult and theories going on about it are very hard to prove likewise. It does make sense, however.
The problem that happened with genetics is probably the brain rather than the gender, I would argue.[/quote]
I don't have the study (and I can't search for it since I gotta leave soon), but it is rather interesting. Hopefully someone pulls it up.
And yes, you're correct. It is in the brain. That's the whole point. The study shows that the brain lacks the proper hormones. It's not the same for all transgenders but that is a possibility. It causes a disconnection between the mind and body, basically saying, "I have a girl's mind, but a boy's body."
[quote]I [I]know[/I] you don't like being labelled as your birth gender, so let me expand on my own view. I wouldn't call you your birth gender, but saying that you don't like it is a reason why transgirls are true women and transmen are true men is not a real explanation.
Personally I would use the term 'transgirl' or 'transmen' as it does describe your gender state best.[/QUOTE]
You could, but at the same time we don't want people to know we're trans (at least not IRL) because, well, that just starts to open you up to harassment and being treated like shit in general. It's a mindset thing, since we can't just be cisgendered, we believe that we are true women (or men) despite the fact we have a "trans" label.
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37700961]You need both to have the final gender, I would claim. Unfortunately for transgender people they cannot fully change gender, only mimic it as best as they can (with current technology, as stated before)[/QUOTE]
Some don't get the surgery. Having a penis doesn't mean you're not a woman, despite the fact many people (and even in the transgender community) believe that. Secondary sex characteristics do not label your gender.
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37700961]To have the correct mental state and such, would you not have to mimic the hormone cycles, I mean, you'd have to do it for the rest of your life I would presume. Your body is being fed different hormones than it is designed to produce, thus different effects.
I'd like to see this study, but proving something within the human brain is very very difficult and theories going on about it are very hard to prove likewise. It does make sense, however.
The problem that happened with genetics is probably the brain rather than the gender, I would argue.
I [I]know[/I] you don't like being labelled as your birth gender, so let me expand on my own view. I wouldn't call you your birth gender, but saying that you don't like it is a reason why transgirls are true women and transmen are true men is not a real explanation.
Personally I would use the term 'transgirl' or 'transmen' as it does describe your gender state best.
You need both to have the final gender, I would claim. Unfortunately for transgender people they cannot fully change gender, only mimic it as best as they can.[/QUOTE]
How many times must it be said your physical body doesn't determine sex.
And saying "you're a trans woman or trans man at best!" Is yet again separating us and it IS. A transphobic viewpoint.
Also please realize you don't have to Be transphobic to have a transphobic opinion on something or have said something transphobic.
Get the fuck out why you can.
-Gandalf
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Gimmick" - daijitsu))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37700762]
Physically, you are the gender you are born with and surgery as it is now does not change that[/QUOTE]
Of course you're the gender you're born with and of course surgery doesn't change that, no one here has argued otherwise
It's the fact that some people are born with a gender that doesn't match their sex...
[editline]17th September 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37701043]How many times must it be said your physical body doesn't determine sex.
[/QUOTE]
Uh no, your physical body determines your sex but not your gender though
[QUOTE]"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37700961]To have the correct mental state and such, would you not have to mimic the hormone cycles, I mean, you'd have to do it for the rest of your life I would presume. Your body is being fed different hormones than it is designed to produce, thus different effects.
I'd like to see this study, but proving something within the human brain is very very difficult and theories going on about it are very hard to prove likewise. It does make sense, however.
The problem that happened with genetics is probably the brain rather than the gender, I would argue.
I [I]know[/I] you don't like being labelled as your birth gender, so let me expand on my own view. I wouldn't call you your birth gender, but saying that you don't like it is a reason why transgirls are true women and transmen are true men is not a real explanation.
Personally I would use the term 'transgirl' or 'transmen' as it does describe your gender state best.
[/QUOTE]
I assume you meant sex and not gender, but why do you define sex by hormones? You know that men can end up with the kind of hormones a woman would have and vice versa right?
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37701043]How many times must it be said your physical body doesn't determine sex.
And saying "you're a trans woman or trans man at best!" Is yet again separating us and it IS. A transphobic viewpoint.
Also please realize you don't have to Be transphobic to have a transphobic opinion on something or have said something transphobic.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry what, immediately throwing the transphobic card out on me. What.
Don't twist my words against me, I did in no way put it like that (If I said that, that would also infer that being a transwoman or a transman is a bad thing, [i]thus[/i] why saying that would be transphobic).
Stop getting all defensive.
I also said you need both to have a final gender, were you even reading.
You want to be called true women because you will face harassment, that I can understand. However, what you say to keep yourself safe is not what is necessarily true. For example, a gay kid in the bible belt in texas saying he is straight does not make him straight.
Just because standards overall in the world have yet to catch up does [i]not[/i] make being a transman or transwoman a bad thing. You're assuming that being such is to make what I have said transphobic.
[editline]17th September 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;37701121]I assume you meant sex and not gender, but why do you define sex by hormones? You know that men can end up with the kind of hormones a woman would have and vice versa right?[/QUOTE]
Sex, gender, words are words, you know my meaning already.
I mentioned organs also, (built to design, not developed from another), because physically sex/gender whatever word suits this, needs the entire body developed, because it's physical.
The reason why I'm saying physically here is to keep physically and mentally seperate, not to say that "YOU ARE A MAN!"
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701137]I'm sorry what, immediately throwing the transphobic card out on me. What.[/QUOTE]
I probably should just leave this thread but this is what I meant was making me pissed off.
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701137]I'm sorry what, immediately throwing the transphobic card out on me. What.
Don't twist my words against me, I did in no way put it like that (If I said that, that would also infer that being a transwoman or a transman is a bad thing, [i]thus[/i] why saying that would be transphobic).
Stop getting all defensive.
I also said you need both to have a final gender, were you even reading.
You want to be called true women because you will face harassment, that I can understand. However, what you say to keep yourself safe is not what is necessarily true. For example, a gay kid in the bible belt in texas saying he is straight does not make him straight.
Just because standards overall in the world have yet to catch up does [i]not[/i] make being a transman or transwoman a bad thing. You're assuming that being such is to make what I have said transphobic.[/QUOTE]
The problem is special titles like that instead of just calling them a man or a woman has implications.
The implications being "a woman who thinks she's a man" or "a man who think's he's a woman" when both of these are incorrect.
Why can't we just call someone who had a sex change their new sex?
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701137]I'm sorry what, immediately throwing the transphobic card out on me. What.
Don't twist my words against me, I did in no way put it like that (If I said that, that would also infer that being a transwoman or a transman is a bad thing, [i]thus[/i] why saying that would be transphobic).
Stop getting all defensive.[/quote]
She said you don't need to be transphobic to have a transphobic opinion. You're the one getting all defensive.
[quote]I also said you need both to have a final gender, were you even reading.[/quote]
False. What do you consider intersex people to be then?
[quote]You want to be called true women because you will face harassment, that I can understand. However, what you say to keep yourself safe is not what is necessarily true. For example, a gay kid in the bible belt in texas saying he is straight does not make him straight.[/quote]
Uh... that's not similar in the slightest? The proper comparison to that would be an MtF or an FtM lying to themselves that they aren't a girl or a boy because bible belt country Texas said they are freaks. Not that a trans person calling themselves true is false. That's offense. :l
[quote]Just because standards overall in the world have yet to catch up does [i]not[/i] make being a transman or transwoman a bad thing. You're assuming that being such is to make what I have said transphobic.[/QUOTE]
Because you essentially are being transphobic. Not necessarily because you're a bigot but because you're not properly educated on the matter and are fathoming up your own set standard for how a person is labeled.
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701137]I'm sorry what, immediately throwing the transphobic card out on me. What.
Don't twist my words against me, I did in no way put it like that (If I said that, that would also infer that being a transwoman or a transman is a bad thing, [i]thus[/i] why saying that would be transphobic).
Stop getting all defensive.
I also said you need both to have a final gender, were you even reading.
You want to be called true women because you will face harassment, that I can understand. However, what you say to keep yourself safe is not what is necessarily true. For example, a gay kid in the bible belt in texas saying he is straight does not make him straight.
Just because standards overall in the world have yet to catch up does [i]not[/i] make being a transman or transwoman a bad thing. You're assuming that being such is to make what I have said transphobic.
[editline]17th September 2012[/editline]
Sex, gender, words are words, you know my meaning already.
I mentioned organs also, (built to design, not developed from another), because physically sex/gender whatever word suits this, needs the entire body developed, because it's physical.
The reason why I'm saying physically here is to keep physically and mentally seperate, not to say that "YOU ARE A MAN!"[/QUOTE]
Calm down. Im not defensive and I'm not instantly pulling some card against you.
You fail to understand that to be a "true" man or woman you don't need to have the FULL body of one.
[QUOTE=RobbL;37701086]Of course you're the gender you're born with and of course surgery doesn't change that, no one here has argued otherwise
It's the fact that some people are born with a gender that doesn't match their sex...
[editline]17th September 2012[/editline]
Uh no, your physical body determines your sex but not your gender though[/QUOTE]
How many times must AIS and SNY be linked before you click it. According to AIS by chromosomes your sex is male yet you devolp female.
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;37701198]The problem is special titles like that instead of just calling them a man or a woman has implications.
The implications being "a woman who thinks she's a man" or "a man who think's he's a woman" when both of these are incorrect.
Why can't we just call someone who had a sex change their new sex?[/QUOTE]
Because it isn't as simple as that in reality.
Those examples are a bit extreme, for example you would be imagining a hairy man in a dress or a woman dressed as a man when you envision that. That's just how society is, and I don't think that they merely 'Think they are a man', that study may show that they have the minds of that gender.
The problem with calling someone who has had a sex change their new sex is that they are liable to be called [i]either[/i] depending on the person who views them. This is why you would say they are transgender, as it describes their sex has changed from one to the other.
With hiding it in current society, feel free, it's not like anyone is likely to tell the difference, but you'll know and it can affect your rights, for example see America where in most states you would not be able to marry your partner because you changed gender and they would see you as a same sex couple.
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701137]Sex, gender, words are words, you know my meaning already.[/QUOTE]
you could at least use the correct terminology, it's like confusing a ruler with a pen and saying "you know what I mean anyways right". the only real relation between gender and sex is that they're often confused for each other, otherwise they're totally different concepts.
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37701241]Calm down. Im not defensive and I'm not instantly pulling some card against you.
You fail to understand that to be a "true" man or woman you don't need to have the FULL body of one.
How many times must AIS and SNY be linked before you click it. According to AIS by chromosomes your sex is male yet you devolp female.[/QUOTE]
AIS is a disorder and is not really covering things, it proves that your sex does not have to be bound by chromosones.
The whole 'true' man and 'true' woman is being tossed around a lot here. Care to give me a definition of that?
[editline]17th September 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cone;37701283]you could at least use the correct terminology, it's like confusing a ruler with a pen and saying "you know what I mean anyways right". the only real relation between gender and sex is that they're often confused for each other, otherwise they're totally different concepts.[/QUOTE]
Actually Gender can mean Sex but Sex does not mean Gender as Gender as a word can cover multiple things, from what I looked up just now.
I mean really, pen and pencil is more likely, they're related but different.
Quickly going to go over the hormone treatment being said as natural. You're giving your body hormones that it does not produce to get it to do things that in nature it does not do outside of the womb. Plus you will not have the hormonal system built into your body that you would normally have.
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701277]Because it isn't as simple as that in reality.
Those examples are a bit extreme, for example you would be imagining a hairy man in a dress or a woman dressed as a man when you envision that. That's just how society is, and I don't think that they merely 'Think they are a man', that study may show that they have the minds of that gender.
The problem with calling someone who has had a sex change their new sex is that they are liable to be called [i]either[/i] depending on the person who views them. This is why you would say they are transgender, as it describes their sex has changed from one to the other.
With hiding it in current society, feel free, it's not like anyone is likely to tell the difference, but you'll know and it can affect your rights, for example see America where in most states you would not be able to marry your partner because you changed gender and they would see you as a same sex couple.[/QUOTE]The problem is transgender means that they have a gender that doesn't match their body.
If someone considers their body to match their gender then why should they be considered transgender?
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701301]
The whole 'true' man and 'true' woman is being tossed around a lot here. Care to give me a definition of that?[/QUOTE]
One side is saying that a true woman is a woman at birth that stays a woman, the other side is saying that every single person who identifies themself as a women is a true women.
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701301]
Actually Gender can mean Sex but Sex does not mean Gender as Gender as a word can cover multiple things, from what I looked up just now.[/QUOTE]
not in queer theory. if you're discussing GSM matters, gender and sex are antonymous
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701301]AIS is a disorder and is not really covering things, it proves that your sex does not have to be bound by chromosones.
The whole 'true' man and 'true' woman is being tossed around a lot here. Care to give me a definition of that?[/quote]
Ok. But by your logic of needing the organs then a woman born without a cervix or whatever isn't a woman.
Also you're the one who started saying "true man" and "true woman"...? I don't even like the terms because it implies there is a true one specific man or woman archetype.
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37701241]
How many times must AIS and SNY be linked before you click it. According to AIS by chromosomes your sex is male yet you devolp female.[/QUOTE]
The definition of sex is the physical body, I thought everyone agreed on that?
Sex isn't completely defined by chromosomes, because as some pointed out earlier people born male can have xx chromosomes, and people born female can have xy chromosomes
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;37701351]One side is saying that a true woman is a woman at birth that stays a woman, the other side is saying that every single person who identifies themself as a women is a true women.[/QUOTE]
The big problem with this is let's say your dating this chick who says she's a chick and looks like a chick and you're straight. But unlike OPs case this chick doesn't want surgery and then you find out she has a dick and she claims she is a true woman.
So claiming that the mindset makes you a 'true' woman has it's problems, because I'm sure any guy who ends up shocked in the above situation I give as an example would beg to differ.
[QUOTE=RobbL;37701405]The definition of sex is the physical body, I thought everyone agreed on that?
[/QUOTE]
the average person doesn't make a differentiation between gender and sex. at least in america
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37701380]Ok. But by your logic of needing the organs then a woman born without a cervix or whatever isn't a woman.
Also you're the one who started saying "true man" and "true woman"...? I don't even like the terms because it implies there is a true one specific man or woman archetype.[/QUOTE]
No, I didn't start saying the terms true man or true woman at all.
The reason I started talking is to demonstrate the implications of various transgender people claiming that they are indeed fully the gender that they want to be. It has very serious problems.
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701411]The big problem with this is let's say your dating this chick who says she's a chick and looks like a chick and you're straight. But unlike OPs case this chick doesn't want surgery and then you find out she has a dick and she claims she is a true woman.
So claiming that the mindset makes you a 'true' woman has it's problems, because I'm sure any guy who ends up shocked in the above situation I give as an example would beg to differ.[/QUOTE]
This is a slippery slope though. By this logic nobody can be a true man or woman because in some extreme case someone can consider anybody to be their opposite sex.
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701427]
The reason I started talking is to demonstrate the implications of various transgender people claiming that they are indeed fully the gender that they want to be. It has very serious problems.[/QUOTE]
gender is a social construct. if you identify with the male gender, you are fully of the male gender
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701427]No, I didn't start saying the terms true man or true woman at all.
The reason I started talking is to demonstrate the implications of various transgender people claiming that they are indeed fully the gender that they want to be. It has very serious problems.[/QUOTE]
No, it doesn't. Transgender people ARE their Gender and to say otherwise is balantanly transphobic. Also you just implied dating a trans woman is gay so I find it hard to take you seriously.
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;37701446]This is a slippery slope though. By this logic nobody can be a true man or woman because in some extreme case someone can consider anybody to be their opposite sex.[/QUOTE]
Where the line is drawn between the two is usually at the transgendered people line, where people are born of one sex but want to be another one. It varies, some people might not care, others with varying degrees along the line. OPs case may reflect plenty of views, he has someone who is what you would say as close as you can get to being a woman, having done the transition. It's a bit of shock but the relationship barely differs from many heterosexual relationships.
However, it isn't perfect like that with transgendered people, because not everyone takes that full transition and you can come up with examples.
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37701481]No, it doesn't. Transgender people ARE their Gender and to say otherwise is balantanly transphobic. Also you just implied dating a trans woman is gay so I find it hard to take you seriously.[/QUOTE]
Calm down and stop claiming what I say is transphobic. I'm giving an example where the sex becomes a problem when dealing with transgendered people and how they decide to label themselves. Did I imply a situation where dating a trans woman would be seen as gay? Somewhat, but this situation is all very real and it is a problem when you talk about labels, so don't start denying it and claiming that you can't take me seriously.
[U]
By the way I'm getting Gender and Sex mixed up in my sentences, it's all rather new to me, don't start taking all of that the wrong way. I'm mostly talking about sex.[/U]
[QUOTE=eurocracy;37701487]Where the line is drawn between the two is usually at the transgendered people line, where people are born of one sex but want to be another one. It varies, some people might not care, others with varying degrees along the line. OPs case may reflect plenty of views, he has someone who is what you would say as close as you can get to being a woman, having done the transition. It's a bit of shock but the relationship barely differs from many heterosexual relationships.
However, it isn't perfect like that with transgendered people, because not everyone takes that full transition and you can come up with examples.[/QUOTE]
Well if someone still considers themselves to be transgender after a sex change then obviously it wasn't perfect.
But why shouldn't someone who considers themselves to be in the right body after a sex change be regarded as their new sex?
[QUOTE=Skelmech;37701481]No, it doesn't. Transgender people ARE their Gender and to say otherwise is balantanly transphobic. Also you just implied dating a trans woman is gay so I find it hard to take you seriously.[/QUOTE]
Well if you're going to be scientific, there is such a thing as a [I]physiologically[/I] 'true' female, as in someone who has [I]only[/I] (non artificial) female sex organs (they're still a female if otherwise). It doesn't matter whether a woman is born without a cervix or ovaries, ect.
However the term 'woman' in itself is a cultural, social, and physiological contruct, regardless of whether they're a 'true' physiological female or not
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;37701516]Well if someone still considers themselves to be transgender after a sex change then obviously it wasn't perfect.
But why shouldn't someone who considers themselves to be in the right body after a sex change be regarded as their new sex?[/QUOTE]
If it were me, I would say that the body suits me better, but also the doubt that it would not be ever 'real', but I likely wouldn't care about those doubts.
When talking about transgender, yes, they would still be transgender. If they were to describe how their sex changes to somebody, saying "I'm transgender" would be sufficient in the real world.
With these transitions that change their sex up to the point to where a relationship would thus be unaffected to the most part, said problems are mostly not present, see OP.
My point is that when you have people who do not have that transition done, there are the problems that arise when you refer to them by the birth sex (Because they don't like it and call you transphobic) and when they refer to themselves as the sex they wish to be (Because you get nasty situations in relationships).
I'm gonna go play MvM now and not come back to this thread, it's been interesting.
My words have been said to be transphobic twice, though. But these are issues that are real, whether you like them or not.
[QUOTE=Dori;37701412]the average person doesn't make a differentiation between gender and sex. at least in america[/QUOTE]
because nobody really learns the specifics, just that it's "that's a dude" and "that's a lady". Gender stereotypes/expectations are the basic stuff like "boys play with cars and girls play with dolls", which we often associate only to be physically relevant, but if a boy plays with girly toys out of preference, maybe that's a hint we're not strictly controlled by having a dong or not. Hell, at that age we're all basically neutral by gender and the only gender truly shown is conditioned by these enforced roles through our parents. Nothing wrong with that either, it's just how things work.
sex is physical characteristic. Gender is often considered the same, but is more the psychological self-identity, which means a sex-Male who's gender-Fem would be the person you'd hear is "a woman trapped in a man's body", and vise versa. Arguing against this is the same stupid argument of "You're not born with it, it's a choice" that we see against being gay. It's actually a physiological difference that causes the mindset, be it less testosterone production or a particular way your body developed in the womb.
Even so, all of these factors are not a black and white, light-switch observation. It's a complete spectrum, there's people at every point in between, of all shades, hues, values; sex, gender and attractions. Even s-male/g-males can be more effeminate or more masculine than others depending on the amount of gender-controlling testosterone they do or do not produce. Likewise, the amount of estrogen a woman produces can and does control whether she's super feminine or kind of manly, and yet these factors aren't all that controls how your body or your brain developed through the womb and young years, or determine how one views themselves. Human, animalistic instinct is different from male to female, and that's something that could vary in programming naturally.
Boy, this is that whole shitstorm I was proud the thread didn't break into on the first few pages. Obviously there's always people are pre-disposed to their opinions about things that end up carrying on the same argument over and over in a single thread, so I'm just going to close it. If you guys want to have an all-out brawl, go to the debate section, there's no ratings to get in the way of conversation. Feel free to ask my advice on something if there comes issues in there, or quote some of my posts in this thread. I'm well read on the psychology and physical aspects of this as I've dealt with family and friends going through these kind of situations since I was young. Knowing and researching this stuff is a little better than 'believing' things are one way or the other.
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