Quick and messy sketch for an idea
[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/11lsx75.jpg[/IMG]
Will clean it up tomorrow.
Her feet should be bigger...
[QUOTE=red_pharoah;44385813]Ok is this any better?
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/UpACvjm.png[/IMG]
[editline]29th March 2014[/editline]
Main light is supposedly coming from the slight top-left, The slight outlines on the left are meant to become drop shadows on what's beneath them (I hope, else I will try to remove them)[/QUOTE]
If I tilt my head and squint, all I can see is the lines. What you should be trying to do is define the object using highlights and shadows, so that the linework is unnecessary.
Take, for example, this still life on the wikipedia page for 'top left lighting':
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Still_life_-_Caravaggio.png[/img]
I can't do this myself, but if someone were to make this black and white, there would be hardly a single line on there. I might be able to explain this better tomorrow, complete with a more illustrative example.
[QUOTE=Krinkels;44386229]If I tilt my head and squint, all I can see is the lines. What you should be trying to do is define the object using highlights and shadows, so that the linework is unnecessary.
Take, for example, this still life on the wikipedia page for 'top left lighting':
I can't do this myself, but if someone were to make this black and white, there would be hardly a single line on there. I might be able to explain this better tomorrow, complete with a more illustrative example.[/QUOTE]
If it helps, I plan on eliminating the lines by making them blend into whatever's behind them (If you look at your example, you can see very thin outlines defining the objects, said outlines then blend into the object behind them/ the background, making it not appear.) I'll try and remove any lines that aren't needed though, so thanks for the tip. I'll be waiting for that better example.
edit: Also please be more specific, which strokes appear as line and which are fine?
There is a real problem today with a lack of proper art education, and even if you attend art school you'll notice that a lot of teachers aren't really teachers, and they've kind of figured out a lot of things on their own. We've lost a lot information and teaching methods over the past few decades because of the modern art movement and a general disdain towards traditional art (though it's currently in the process of coming back, mostly cause of digital art).
There's a very real and proper way of learning art, and a lot of teachers nowadays will argue about this, and you should just ignore them. The proper way of learning illustrative art is to improve your technical abilities first, which means you need to start off with observational drawing. Non referenced work won't help you progress in the beginning, it's simply an expansion of what you've learned from observational drawing. Drawing from observation (especially figure and landscape drawing) will help you tremendously to achieve a better sense of understanding for what you're drawing. For example you can look back at an older drawing you did and if you can clearly see all the faults with it than that means you're improving your perception and sense of observation. It's a slow progression.
There's also a common misconception regarding illustration, and a lot of people think that everything they see is non referenced work, when in fact an overwhelmingly large majority of illustrators and artists use some form of reference for their work. It takes years and work to be able to create something completely reference free, and trying to do this from the beginning will make you develop certain bad habits. If you work every day on little sketches and quick drawings you're basically practicing the wrong thing over and over. You would think practice makes perfect but I like to stress that [I]perfect[/I] practice makes perfect.
In the beginning you should work on developing hand eye coordination through observation, it's the only way to improve. Literally the entirety of your illustrative abilities relies on you being able to properly draw. I personally found that landscape drawing is the best thing to practice in high school since you don't really have access to figure drawing classes. Landscapes will help you practice not only observational drawing but also perspective, which is a great thing to start off with. It's important to learn to be patient with your art and build it up in layers, no artists achieved a finished product from the beginning, it's all about revision and build up. [URL="http://www.alexhays.com/loomis/"]Download anatomy PDFs to learn what you're drawing for figures [/URL](tutorials teach you what you're drawing, not how to draw, only observation will teach you how to draw). Study drawing and paintings by doing studies of them. Use a light (~6h) pencil to sketch something and reworking the sketch till you're satisfied to it, and then refine it with a pencil. Always step back from your work and look at it from a distance (for example if you're doing a figure model you would usually walk up your drawing and place it near the model and then looking at it from farther away to noticed inconsistencies) .
I can describe in more detail how to properly start learning figure drawing for example, and this can apply to any kind of drawing really. First you want to learn to use your pencil as a measuring tool to map out the proportions and angles. When you look at something your view is basically a 2D image of what you're seeing, so you can actually force yourself to think of what you're looking at as if it's a flat picture. Use your pencil to measure the entire figure and the length of each section of the body, as well as individual parts to get the proportions right. Hold your pencil horizontal and angle it and then move it in front of your drawing to replicate that angle. This help you line up two points for example, say the shoulder lines up with the thigh or end of the foot, or the neck lines up with the belly, or something like that. This way you draw connections between what you're seeing and this makes it so that you can properly transfer it to a drawing. Start off with a light mechanical pencil for the sketch and then refine it with a regular pencil.
Here's a basic example for facial anatomy. On the left you can line up features at angles and on the right you can measure certain parts (they're horizontal and vertical because he's facing you directly in this case, but any angle applies)
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/N9ZW8bu.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/c40BtFh.png[/IMG]
Here's an example for figurative drawing. These angles are created because of perspective. The horizon line is where your eye level is when you draw the figure (in this case around the belly usually).
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/JG5vHqp.jpg[/IMG]
Learning this way will help you develop a good understanding of the figure, which you can later apply without reference once you properly understand everything. Don't do quick sketches, do longer studies at first so that you can build a foundation. Doing quick sketches will again mean you're practicing something incorrectly.
The whole process of improving your technical skill doesn't have to be boring and feel like work either. If you have a desire to improve your work you should quickly fall into the habit of rigorous technical practice, and honestly if you find yourself just not being able to concentrate on these basic principles than maybe this sort of illustrative art isn't for you. People are different and we all have our own regards for what we want to achieve as artists.
tl;dr: don't draw from your head or skip steps when learning
a nice way for prospective illustrators/concept-artists to have a bit of fun when doing lots of studies is just to add a little imaginative flare to them when you're done with the actual studying bit. i wouldn't recommend spending more than a few minutes on this, but just adding a little bit of narrative to, for example, an otherwise straight-up environments study, can help you free up your mind a bit and make the piece feel like your own a little more
just my 2 pence
[editline]29th March 2014[/editline]
this is a year and a half old now but i did this idea on these studies
[t]http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/314/0/1/quick_study_environment_things_by_chestymcgee-d5kldhi.jpg[/t]
Referring to Lilyo's post, that seems like way too many rules and something that'd easily get really boring for a beginner. It's important to have fun in the beginning if you're learning by yourself, or you won't stay with it. Just feel it out
[QUOTE=Lilyo;44383768]Study figures with more realistic lighting. What you're doing right now is called over modeling, where you're over emphasizing certain parts thinking you'll create a more dynamic and volumetric figure, when instead you're flattening her out as a photograph would. You're obviously guesstimating a lot of the anatomy and lighting, which indicates you shouldn't be doing non referenced work, and also the lighting makes no sense, she's lit up from above yet her legs are brighter than her face and her upper torso is very dark. Areas that face the light directly should be lighter than others, otherwise itll look extremely flat overall. I suggest you study a few figure paintings by more modern artists and you'll learn a lot.[/QUOTE]
Certainly I can't do successful unreferenced figures, but I feel like it'll be good to give it a shot incrementally to identify mistakes
[QUOTE=Lilyo;44383768]Study figures with more realistic lighting. What you're doing right now is called over modeling, where you're over emphasizing certain parts thinking you'll create a more dynamic and volumetric figure, when instead you're flattening her out as a photograph would.[/QUOTE]
Can you explain this further? I understand as much as you've said but I don't know where I've done that or what I should have done instead
[QUOTE=antianan;44382054]Sorry dude, really no offence, but she looks like a fried chicken with these skin tones and strokes :([/QUOTE]
I'll keep an eye on that yeah :v:
cheers for the replies all
[QUOTE=red_pharoah;44386267]If it helps, I plan on eliminating the lines by making them blend into whatever's behind them (If you look at your example, you can see very thin outlines defining the objects, said outlines then blend into the object behind them/ the background, making it not appear.) I'll try and remove any lines that aren't needed though, so thanks for the tip. I'll be waiting for that better example.
edit: Also please be more specific, which strokes appear as line and which are fine?[/QUOTE]
Those aren't lines, as you know a line, because lines don't really exist. It's just areas of different value and color meeting. Use lines to sketch out an idea, but know that as soon as you begin painting, most of those lines will be gone and replaced by variations of shadow and light.
(I'm just learning this stuff myself, so I know how you're feeling :v)
[QUOTE=MakoSkyDub;44387254]
Can you explain this further? I understand as much as you've said but I don't know where I've done that or what I should have done instead
[/QUOTE]
I mean places like the arm. You're just over emphasizing the shadows in some places. A lot of people do this with muscles by over emphasizing shadows that really aren't as dark as they're making them seem. The only real way to get better at this is doing figure paintings.
Obviously the biggest thing when it comes to figure drawing is lighting, so all of these look different, but study each one and you'll see a few things repeating. Proper highlight and diffusion of light is very important to create a proper sense of volume. Obviously the most important thing about figure drawing is making sure you actually know how to properly draw the figure though :v:
[IMG]http://artrenewalcenter.org/artwork/773/6773/41388/Stockholm_Figure_painting_Oil_on_canvas-large.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/yOdNuXq.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/CmoK01Q.jpg[/IMG]
Even paintings with single light sources and harsh contrast are the same. Notice how you can clearly tell where the light source is. Light sources for figure models is usually at a 45 degree angle above them, which means the strongest highlights should be on the forehead and upper chest usually. Just an example.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/nYy8rbQ.jpg[/img] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/57Pf2P4.jpg[/IMG]
For example in this the light source is more parallel to his torso but notice how the light still diffuses properly and the volume of the figure is apparent because of the proper placement of highlights.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/SwhG8bL.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Bynine;44385864][B]ART GURUS, HEAR MY CALL![/B][/QUOTE]
So I can't tell you the magic advice that'll immediately level you up to ultimate pro, as I am not an ultimate pro, but I have come up with some thoughts after working low profile commissions for the past 2 months.
Essentially, I've been training to get from this:
[T]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4565878/facepunch/style%20sheet.jpg[/T]
To this: (which may or may not be an improvement according to subjective opinion)
[T]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4565878/facepunch/4.jpg[/T]
Overall I've noticed a lot of pretty bad habits/thoughts that I was following in the past, stuff that I'm currently trying to alleviate nowadays, but here I can note the ones I remember. I know that it's unfair for me to give you advice when the main reason I'm motivated to draw right now is because I'm obligated to draw, but nonetheless I hope I can still shed light on a few things.
[B]1. It's important to draw, but it's just as important to know what not to:[/B]
Everyone has a limit, and important to balance your motivation and energy before you burn out.
Very early on, I was trying to convince myself that I want to be digi-painting for the rest of a project. I was sick of inking and I wanted be able to train myself. So, initially I drew a sample card w/ brushes over an ink outline.
[T]http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2014/044/2/2/disgusting_failed_attempts_by_boonyboy-d76c62n.jpg[/T]
I could not, for the life of me, get it to work. Relative to the quality that I wanted, the end result was flat and boring and I had no idea of how to fix it, I almost gave up on the digi-painting in general. Additionally I thought the frustration I felt was my own fault, something along the lines that I'm not good enough (a fair argument) or that I didn't try hard enough.
The next day I drew this:
[T]http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/044/a/4/green_whelpling_by_boonyboy-d76c6cx.jpg[/T]
(I know it's kind of shite), but it worked. There was depth, there was somewhat action, and for the first time in a long time there was color in one of my digi-paintings. What I didn't realize was that my concept for the previous piece was awful. I wanted to make it as interesting as I could but it was impossible, the form was flat, the posture was horrible for interesting lighting, etc. etc.
So altogether, it was the start of realizing that I couldn't 'brute force' my way into a good drawing. In terms of designing the concept of a drawing, you will reap what you sow. And you do not have to murder yourself over hours and hours on a 'meh' concept when you can have a strong piece that challenged you and that you enjoyed making in one evening.
[B]2. Enjoy drawing, but not to the extent that you're sheltering yourself from challenge:[/B]
Fairly self-explanatory. Also try not to trap yourself with within pure technical practice. Gesture drawing and life studies are difficult and challenging yes, but if you want to be an illustrator/concept artist they're "just" the stepping stones to getting there. I just know I don't want to be drawing naked old people and vases for the rest of my life, do you?
You will also be surprised at how much you can work on outside of the canvas. I can write another giant post about freelancing itself, but you should know that often times a lot of different art medias are connected. Anatomy goes hand in hand with 3D animation and I personally learned a lot about shading by painting textures on a Blender model. So try out things outside of your comfort media.
[T]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4565878/facepunch/getting%20there.jpg[/T]
[B]3. Learn to 'just do it':[/B]
A lot of times I hear people say things like "wow, that texture work is so amazing, I could never do something like that" or like "I should just give up on art because I could never draw poses that good." Quite frankly I'm glad they think that way because that only means more commission work for me. In all honestly though, you will be surprised how easy it is to imitate the 'magic tricks' that one might think the pro's do. A while back I was too afraid to work with texture/unique brushed because the professional work I saw was too intimidating; turns out it was just a matter of picking and tweaking a few brushes in photoshop, and then slapping them onto the canvas like an idiot (not to claim mastery over the artform).
Overall, it might just be me, but if you hear a hint in your head that says "my drawing would be so much better if I use a texture brush/different color/etc", just do it. Even if it doesn't work you will learn something from it.
That's all I have at the top of my head. Personally I'm planning to learn how to draw environments and landscapes in the Summer, and if I fail I guess I would be full of shite; but my suggestion on experimenting and thinking ahead remains.
This page just got a whole lot more penises than I've ever wanted to see.
[QUOTE=Galactic;44388540]This page just got a whole lot more penises than I've ever wanted to see.[/QUOTE]
Oh NoooooooooOOOOOOOOOOoooooOoooooooo
[I]willies[/I] [img]http://www.gamingmasters.org/styles/ogoatzen/smilies/emot-byodood.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=dnqboy;44387275]Those aren't lines, as you know a line, because lines don't really exist. It's just areas of different value and color meeting. Use lines to sketch out an idea, but know that as soon as you begin painting, most of those lines will be gone and replaced by variations of shadow and light.
(I'm just learning this stuff myself, so I know how you're feeling :v)[/QUOTE]
I think that's where my problem is, I'm too used to drawing comic style with very thick outlines I can't look at a painting without imagining its outlines, I can't figure out how to not use lines to identify area. Looking at the examples Boone_sedford gave I think I inderstand what krinkels was trying to say. Yet I hace no idea how to do this without everything turning into a grey pulp.
Just to follow Lilyo's and Boone's advice: Read a lot of books. Litterature, comics, art, history, geography, weapons & armors, mythology, automobiles, etc... there is quite a range of subjects (and a huge amount of books for each one of them) depending of your preferences. Being interested in several subjects definitively help to keep your motivation and inspiration on, not to mention increasing your ability to draw different kind of things.
[QUOTE=Bynine;44385864][B]ART GURUS, HEAR MY CALL![/B]
So lately I've been worried about improving in art (well, mostly illustration). Really worried. I have no idea if I'm improving or stagnating, if my approach to practice is effective or useless, if my improvement is worth the four years it took to get to the point where it is, and why no accomplished practitioners of the arts are able to give me a straight answer on how they got to where they are to begin with (besides "practice every day!" which is about as helpful as a sack of wet, dead, obvious fish). So I'll delve into how I practice and maybe you fellers can give me some tips if I'm doing something wrong.
I draw every day at school during lessons in a plain sketchbook with a mechanical pencil, usually getting two or three hours out of it,although they're mostly drawings from my head as opposed to from life. When I get home, I draw on average for about another hour or so, referencing photographs and studying objects in real life too - pen and pencil for the most part, occasionally digitally. [URL=http://imgur.com/a/LqVj0]Here are a few examples of my daily workflow.[/URL] On rare occasions I try paint and charcoal, to little success.
I worry mostly because I'm so inconsistent. I still have trouble with basic things, like drawing people walking, or reproducing the same image multiple times - in fact, especially that last one. I also don't seem to be able to remember details very well at all, because if I draw something and then try and draw it again the next day without referring to it it'll look wildly different and usually far worse. Whenever I attempt to draw buildings, or chairs, or other such inorganic things, they look hilariously bad.
Diagnose me, art-doctors. Please, I'm begging you. I really want to know how I can better myself, because it's an incredibly important part of my life and soon I won't have half the time I have now to use to improve. Thanks for reading![/QUOTE]
You didn't give us much to look at as far as your work goes. What happens when you attempt a sustained drawing? Do you know how to measure by eye for life drawing?
The buildings and chairs thing would be a lack of knowledge of perspective.
The thing is your drawings there look either entirely creative or just miserly in size (and presumably time spent.) If you haven't begun with the fundamentals you can't afford to be too creative unfortunately, or you'll just drown in a sea of not knowing what you're doing. If you don't know how to measure, look it up and learn. Then sit and do ONE drawing on ONE page. Spend some time on it. Post the result.
Had a peek at your DA, no fundamentals in evidence anywhere :v: esp. perspective
Practice won't help very much if you're not practicing the right shit
In terms of art books I can recommend, go for
"Perspective Made Easy" by Ernest R.Norling
"Anatomy for the Artist" by Sarah Simblet
"Figure Anatomy" by Villpu
"Color & Light" by James Gurney
and "Famous Artists Course"
I don't know if you're aiming at comics, but you can still take a look at Scott McCloud's books (especially "Understanding Comics" since it covers the whole theoritical course in comics), and "Drawings Words & Writing Pictures" by Abel & Madden.
I'm just giving you a short list for the moment because there are so many interesting books in fact. If you require more information, you can still PM me about it.
Some of the posts on the last page should be saved somewhere for future reference.
Made another paint test, improvement?
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ED5aZWg.png[/IMG]
[editline]29th March 2014[/editline]
don't mind the anatomy I made it in like 5 minutes
Uh if lighting is what you were going for, there is so much wrong with that that shouldn't need pointing out.
Why is the back of his shoulder blade lit etc.
Honestly, thank you so much, everybody... I can't really properly express my gratitude, but I'm thankful for your expertise and the time you spent sharing it. I'm also pretty miffed that, while taking art courses, nobody has had the decency to inform me that this stuff is what I ought to do, even when I asked!, but I suppose that's in the past now.
So I'll go for it. I'll try staying focused on bigger, more detailed drawings as opposed to quick sketches (although obviously I'll still do some gesture sketches), and I'll try doing landscapes and buildings and other things that have troubled me for so long, challenging myself properly in the process. I'll make sure to try and observe things carefully every day. This still is, after all, a hobby. But don't worry, I'll have fun with it too!
By the way, Mako, my most recent stuff is on my Tumblr - all my DA drawings are from half a year ago or later. [URL=http://bynineb.tumblr.com/]I have some drawings that, at least, attempt perspective on here.[/URL] I totally forgot to remove the DA link from under my username though so it's my fault for misleading you
Also I tried drawing Bill Cosby using the face-drawing techniques Lilyo mentioned
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/GyTeYbb.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Jallen;44390072]Uh if lighting is what you were going for, there is so much wrong with that that shouldn't need pointing out.
Why is the back of his shoulder blade lit etc.[/QUOTE]
While I realise the lighting is weird, I was more focused on seeing if I can work with highlights and shading to identify area.
[QUOTE=Bynine;44390128]Honestly, thank you so much, everybody... I can't really properly express my gratitude, but I'm thankful for your expertise and the time you spent sharing it. I'm also pretty miffed that, while taking art courses, nobody has had the decency to inform me that this stuff is what I ought to do, even when I asked!, but I suppose that's in the past now.
So I'll go for it. I'll try staying focused on bigger, more detailed drawings as opposed to quick sketches (although obviously I'll still do some gesture sketches), and I'll try doing landscapes and buildings and other things that have troubled me for so long, challenging myself properly in the process. I'll make sure to try and observe things carefully every day. This still is, after all, a hobby. But don't worry, I'll have fun with it too!
By the way, Mako, my most recent stuff is on my Tumblr - all my DA drawings are from half a year ago or later. [URL=http://bynineb.tumblr.com/]I have some drawings that, at least, attempt perspective on here.[/URL] I totally forgot to remove the DA link from under my username though so it's my fault for misleading you
Also I tried drawing Bill Cosby using the face-drawing techniques Lilyo mentioned
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/GyTeYbb.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Everything Lilyo mentioned he mentioned in brief (very brief) so I'd either ask him or someone to expound upon whichever specific you might be looking to utilise or look it up
All I'm seeing on there is heavily stylised work, which is useless to offer for critique. You have to draw representationally to begin with ("to begin with" might be a bit misleading, since you'll likely have to do so for years before you can approach a style well)
Forget the photostudies, they should only really be used to practice rendering imo and you shouldn't be worrying about that until later. Draw from observation, make it a reasonably simple object and try to replicate it as accurately as you can in line. Measure.
[editline]30th March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=red_pharoah;44390210]While I realise the lighting is weird, I was more focused on seeing if I can work with highlights and shading to identify area.[/QUOTE]
Try something a bit more rudimentary.
Can you put an apple in front of you and draw it with only line? If not how will you do a figure under a spotlight etc.
Baby steps
I'll try that, Mako. Thank you.
What tools do people suggest be used for landscapes? Charcoal? I'm having trouble envisioning that pencil would work well for them.
Some more doodles during lectures or on the bus
[IMG]http://i.cubeupload.com/s1tHP3.png[/IMG]
I wish I could work on something more impressive but I'm so hung up on the thirty thousand essays I have to write for college :c
[QUOTE=MakoSkyDub;44390436]
Baby steps[/QUOTE]
But but.
Ok yeah you're right, I may be good at drawing, but I'm horrible at painting and lighting. I'll try doing a reference and see how it goes
Someone on this thread said they have a problem with drawing the same character more than once, I thought I'd add to the advice by saying that a big help is developing them from simple shapes, structures and lines, I always found that the process of doing that gives a model to work from in the future and also burns itself into your memory easier.
I made an example for you
[IMG]http://i.cubeupload.com/wsFAIU.png[/IMG]
This is just my thoughts on the subject, I hope it helps
[QUOTE=red_pharoah;44390963]I may be good at drawing[/QUOTE]
[I]Are[/I] you though?
[QUOTE=MakoSkyDub;44391377][I]Are[/I] you though?[/QUOTE]
I know that i am hardly [URL="http://imgur.com/a/EyL6V"] any better[/URL] than most of the people here, but I know my way around with a pencil/ink pen. I never really made any "studies" (one time I made a study of a skull, the hand and foot bones, but that's about it). I just make doodles. Lately I got into really improving so I focused on anatomy and character design first, but also didn't do any studies. I just observed what other people did then use my memory of it as a reference
[editline]29th March 2014[/editline]
Also apprently I was drawing "wrong" this whole time, because I always started with details first. I just found that out recently.
Wow the last few pages have been extremely helpful.
Definitely going to crank up the amount of technical drawings I do
[QUOTE=red_pharoah;44391642]I know that i am hardly [URL="http://imgur.com/a/EyL6V"] any better[/URL] than most of the people here, but I know my way around with a pencil/ink pen. I never really made any "studies" (one time I made a study of a skull, the hand and foot bones, but that's about it). I just make doodles. Lately I got into really improving so I focused on anatomy and character design first, but also didn't do any studies. I just observed what other people did then use my memory of it as a reference
[editline]29th March 2014[/editline]
Also apprently I was drawing "wrong" this whole time, because I always started with details first. I just found that out recently.[/QUOTE]
Sorry to say that starting out with things like character design is also waaay wrong, get some basics down, draw primitives to train your lines and ellipses and that
And yeah definitely improve your drawing before you step into painting (or even value of any kind) is my advice
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