• What is a Perfect Government
    155 replies, posted
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;32405074]Communism if you can get it right. Constitutional Republic (AMERICA) if you can't.[/QUOTE] I'm certain many people in Europe disagree with the latter statement.
Perfect government is no government, simple as that. All governments bring along their own evils with them.
Which is why the thread title doesn't make logical sense. It's basically discussion of "perfect necessary evil", which is imperfect by it's nature.
Having no governments will simply drop the nation downhill like a roller coaster ride in many ways. It's far worse than any other options.
[QUOTE=B!N4RY;32405170]Having no governments will simply drop the nation downhill like a roller coaster ride in many ways. It's far worse than any other options.[/QUOTE] In case the society isn't perfect, yes. [editline]21st September 2011[/editline] Let me give you an example - Hiveminds present on our planet - Ants, Thermites, Bees. They lack government (contrary to popular belief, the "queen" is more of a slave than anything), while they are probably the most efficient societies on the planet. Each individual "knows" (on their level of (lack of) conscience, "knowing" is a somewhat strong term) what to do, and the society works like one organism without centralized rule, democratic or other.
Traditional capitalism
Glorious communism
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32405255]In case the society isn't perfect, yes. [editline]21st September 2011[/editline] Let me give you an example - Hiveminds present on our planet - Ants, Thermites, Bees. They lack government (contrary to popular belief, the "queen" is more of a slave than anything), while they are probably the most efficient societies on the planet. Each individual "knows" (on their level of (lack of) conscience, "knowing" is a somewhat strong term) what to do, and the society works like one organism without centralized rule, democratic or other.[/QUOTE] I hate hive mind wall-mart shoppers have a hive mind, though humans can never truly have a real hivemind, otherwise, we'd have to be slaves to the system
[QUOTE=J!NX;32405334]I hate hive mind wall-mart shoppers have a hive mind, though humans can never truly have a real hivemind, otherwise, we'd have to be slaves to the system[/QUOTE] No they don't. Wal-mart shoppers have hive-stupidity, if anything. Hivemind doesn't make you it's/ slave. Being part of hivemind means ascending over he concept of freedom and slavery. You can't imagine accepting becoming part of a hivemind, because it's conecpt completely alient to you. But for those born in it, raised by it, and existing for it, it's the perfect society, and so it is from objective point of view, if you consider things like crime (nil), or efficiency.
Senatorum Imperialis expanded and streamlined on various levels.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32405443]No they don't. Wal-mart shoppers have hive-stupidity, if anything. Hivemind doesn't make you it's/ slave. Being part of hivemind means ascending over he concept of freedom and slavery. You can't imagine accepting becoming part of a hivemind, because it's conecpt completely alient to you. But for those born in it, raised by it, and existing for it, it's the perfect society, and so it is from objective point of view, if you consider things like crime (nil), or efficiency.[/QUOTE] Fair point. Does sound perfect, unless your not raised by it at all. And with humanity, you can't achieve hive mind. Mankind is just too crazy.
[QUOTE=J!NX;32405479]Fair point. Does sound perfect, unless your not raised by it at all. And with humanity, you can't achieve hive mind. Mankind is just too crazy.[/QUOTE] So you admit you're crazy? [editline]20th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=gufu;32405478]Senatorum Imperialis expanded and streamlined on various levels.[/QUOTE] Why ratings, why must you be gone?
[QUOTE=Fables;32405494]Why ratings, why must you be gone?[/QUOTE] Damnation, you are correct! But why the boxes?
[QUOTE=gufu;32405538]Damnation, you are correct! But why the boxes?[/QUOTE] Was going to rate funny, this is taking some getting used to.
I think current governments could be made better if it was possible to reduce the length of terms. If elections weren't so expensive and you could hold one every year, the politicians wouldn't have such a sense of security. There are very few people who look further than their term, but if they only had 1 year before they had to stand for re-election they might actually try to get things done. In reality it would be complete chaos and it wouldn't work at all, but this thread is full of dreams anyway.
Realistically speaking, I agree with Rubs10. Different civilizations with different expectations and needs will call for different kinds of government over time, so just as they evolve, so do their governments. For as long as we preserve the option to get rid of the current government completely, the experimentation of evolution can yield a number of results from which we can pick the one that fits our status best Ideally speaking, it would be the figure of God. A benevolent all-powerful executive that knows everything and can be in direct contact with everyone. Deus Ex 2 painted a pretty vivid image of a direct democracy. If we had a creature like God that could not only collect information, but also distribute and share them in order to clear up misunderstandings and misinformation that lead to choices you wouldn't have made had you known the truth, then we'd have a parliament involving all people. Since I believe that our actions are based on our memory (I don't believe in randomness, and by extension I don't believe in free will), if we shared our memory that leads to our choice-making and if we were capable of considering other memories just as much as our own (through God's magic), there would always be complete unity in the voting because everyone knows everything that can be known at that point among the humans involved in the state. [b]TL;DR: God[/b] (executive) + [b][url="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeonGenesisEvangelion"]Tang[/url][/b] (legislative) Of course this new scenario in which unity among all people part of the state is possible also begs the question of individuality: If we all think as a single entity, do our physical bodies still matter? Should we forget the lessons learned after the voting to preserve both dissent and conflict, but also individuality and personal choices? Or, taking Huxley's Brave New World into mind, are peace and happiness in general worth sacrificing freedom and individuality - or do we need both of these things to give meaning to times of peace and happiness exactly because they are an achievement, not the status quo? Is having achieved happiness of greater value than achieving happiness? If generations after generations lived in perfect peace, would that hold any meaning to them still without having lived through contrasts? Is that worth changing ourselves and how we think at the core? To me personally it sounds a bit like becoming a mindless machine in order to maximize your monthly income - but then you have no more use for it. Lastly, for this discussion, I would never give control to a Helios AI if we developed it. Our software bluescreens. Imperfect creators give birth to imperfect beings. For a perfect government, we can't have an imperfect being as a leader or executive (hence my nomination of God). I don't know if an actual AI that tries to play God would work out, because at that point humanity's needs and expectations will have changed again - which leads into my first paragraph again. If someone wants to discuss this in greater detail, send me a PM; I doubt that I'll visit this thread again. P.S. The strength of a (passionate) dictatorship, benevolent or not, lies within its effectiveness, while democracies are more decentralized and many head figures care about their salary more than the ideology they are supposed to stand behind. Judges have exceptionally high wages to prevent corruption, but some politicians are becoming almost mercenaries for corporations that guarantee them a regulated income and peaceful life until they die. I believe what makes democracies crumble, now more than ever, is a lack of passion for the really big thing. Instead, many politicians are completely caught up in their own lives or their party in order to build a contrast to the status quo that inevitably disappointed voters will vote during the next election. So these people are concerned about their own power and their own lives when they should be completely selfless in order to make a better state for everyone.
A government with no censorship.
I would support a democratic autocracy. Hear me out, the people elect a single leader, and every person regardless of stature gets to voice their opinion, but in the end, it is up to the leader to make the final descision. The leader would be watched closely by a monitoring committee, but they have no power of veto over his descisions. Elections would work differently to what they do now. An autocrat would serve for a term of 15 years, unless there is a 2/3 majority vote that he should stay. At any point suring his rule, if a 1/2 majority says they want to challenge him, an election will be held where people will vote whether he goes or stays. If a 2/3 majority votes against him, he is removed. If the leader dies or is removed, he will be replaced by a shadow leader from the regulatory committee. The people would be able to vote whether they want to keep said shadow leader or pick another from the committee.
[QUOTE=J!NX;32405479]Fair point. Does sound perfect, unless your not raised by it at all. And with humanity, you can't achieve hive mind. Mankind is just too crazy.[/QUOTE] Yeah, as I implied, people are imperfect, and thus there is nothing like really perfect government, built out of them. Another thing is that humanity changes through the course of history, so people from different eras would find different kind of government ideal. If we consider today people as they are, I would say, autocratic rule of an AI. It's highly probably going to happen either way. AI has no reason to be bigoted, no reason to be selfish, and will always be able to come with the most efficient solution.
[QUOTE=TropicalV2;32404014]social contract > your ideologies[/QUOTE] Disagree. The social contract would probably just cause stagnation because it doesn't do anything to cultivate dissenting opinion (in fact, it actively quashes all dissent). Dissenting opinions are the ones that allow humanity to progress.
Strong dictatorship. There's obviously good dictatorships or somewhat dictatorish monarchies in the world, United Arab Emirates for example. Yeah, few people get a shitty place from the bottom of the hierarchy, but they can thank themselves for holding the country in one piece.
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjF2oy6qdHg]Deus Ex's[/url] [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBeoreJr4Yc]Helios Ending[/url] is the perfect government.
Why are so many people for autocracies?! It absolutely blows my mind.
[QUOTE=Fables;32405494]So you admit you're crazy? [editline]20th September 2011[/editline] Why ratings, why must you be gone?[/QUOTE] it isn't an issue with the individuals, its an issue with large groups of individuals being unable to work together.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;32407749]Why are so many people for autocracies?! It absolutely blows my mind.[/QUOTE] Some people just haven't learned that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Chances are they have some desire to be the head of an autocracy of their own, and therefore think it could actually work.
Even if power [I]didn't[/I] corrupt, it would still be an absolutely vile system of politics. Even if someone thinks they know what's best for me and they think they're acting entirely altruistically, it doesn't mean they're not shitty at making my decisions for me because they don't know what I want.
Humans are subject to free will. Therefore they may be unpredictable. And unpredictability eliminates any notion of a perfect society. As much as I'd love a free society where members simply sustain a community through voluntary actions, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon, I fear.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;32407844]Humans are subject to free will. Therefore they may be unpredictable. And unpredictability eliminates any notion of a perfect society. As much as I'd love a free society where members simply sustain a community through voluntary actions, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon, I fear.[/QUOTE] Nothing is random. If you know the conditions of a situation, you can predict anything. Nothing happens without reason.
[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32407935]Nothing is random. If you know the conditions of a situation, you can predict anything. Nothing happens without reason.[/QUOTE] I didn't call it random. Unpredictable. Ofcourse people will be trying to work towards a common goal, not pulling random crap for the sake of unpredictability BUT each person, at the same time, has their own point of view. Grouping is bound to happen, which may lead to the fracturing of the society. Unless someone comes up with an all-encompassing compromise that works out for everyone, Humans won't unite.
I'm starting to believe that these pure ideas of socialism and capitalism don't work on their own. We have to have a common ground, where ideas from both ideologies can co-exist. I'd like to have a government that encourages private investment but protects the people and regulates the market. This would also mean that basic services such as water, power, garbage disposal and basic telecommunications (telephone) should be controlled by the state and not by private corporations. The main issue with this is that it could lure investors away. Many investors think in a predator way: I will invest 20 dollars today and expect to get 60 by tomorrow, and this can't happen without fucking people up. I've been living in this country for 3 years now, it has a full blown capitalist government and it makes me angry that companies can do whatever they want with you. Banks charge you monthly if you don't have a certain amount in the account, electricity company disconnects you with 2 months unpaid with no previous warning, your car gets locked if you miss two months, health insurance companies can cancel your contract every three months if they want, car insurance don't cover damages lower than 400$. Something that certainly did not happen back my country.
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