[QUOTE=agentfazexx;46915297]So I've read all the Honda forums and people talking and bickering about various things...
Hondata is overpriced. $700 for maybe a 30hp gain? Eh. I'll pass.
Realistically, if I'm dropping 5k on a turbo and tuning, with labor I'm going to expect ~400hp. Is this not reasonable? Or do I need to find a V6 or V8 BMW M series and sell my car because it's too much of a pain to get some reasonable power above the 220hp I'm at now? Or should I be supercharging?[/QUOTE]
Hondata isn't a gain, it's a chipped/tuneable ECU or a package which allows you to flash your stock ECU. If you plan on actually making any sort of real gains more than 3-5hp you must tune. Some ECU's can simply be flashed, I'm not sure on the new K series ECUs but I know the older ones and the OBD1 ecus from pre-01 must be chipped with a secondary board, Hondata.
It really all depends on your setup, your tuner and how much power you push it for and if you do the supporting mods you push that. If you really wanted you could push 700hp through your motor as is but I'd bet the head would lift on the first few runs and you'd blow a headgasket or something. I know on B/D series motors ARP headstuds are your first mod really. You can definitely make 400hp if that's the number you want, what you put your money into and how much you try to support that much is all the difference.
Supercharging is somewhat similarly in-depth but it's also a little more "bolt-on" in a way that it's easier to remove. Used superchargers also go for a pretty good price so you could probably take a $400-500 hit on the kit if you don't like it, eat the rest of the costs and sell it off pretty quick.
Vit seems to be able to make great power out of those superchagers along with his aftercooler and E85 which makes the huge difference with a supercharger.
[url]http://vittuned.com/mucter_kw[/url]
[url]http://vittuned.com/mike_cte[/url]
[url]https://www.facebook.com/vittuned[/url]
Go check out K20a, from what I remember they're a little more grown up than many Honda forums, most gen specific forums like I said are utter trash.
[editline]12th January 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;46915297]I realize changing things breaks stuff, but for example, the 2006 GTO can handle up to 900HP with basically no mods done outside of transaxle and etc (friend has a GTO with a stroker). Why is this car so finicky? I guess newer cars are?[/QUOTE]
It's not really so much that it's finicky, there's always a hell lot more than you think to these things and that's why most people leave it to a shop to handle all the other stuff. The LS platform is a completely different animal really. Remember that 400hp with your motor is like 800hp with his car although 900hp isn't insanely reliable or DD material on a car like that too.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;46914884]It's a pretty big forum dude. It was a general question which you don't need to shut down.[/QUOTE]
You missed the point that this subforum has few active posters, and that I wasn't shutting you down, just giving you advice on where to get better answers.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;46915297]So I've read all the Honda forums and people talking and bickering about various things...
Hondata is overpriced. $700 for maybe a 30hp gain? Eh. I'll pass. That's worse than the bigger throttle bodies for $400 that do basically nothing.
Realistically, if I'm dropping 5k on a turbo and tuning, with labor I'm going to expect ~400hp. Is this not reasonable in a $25,000 dollar car? Or do I need to find a V6 or V8 BMW M series and sell my car because it's too much of a pain to get some reasonable power above the 220hp I'm at now? Or should I be supercharging? I realize changing things breaks stuff, but for example, the 2006 GTO can handle up to 900HP with basically no mods done outside of transaxle and etc (friend has a GTO with a stroker). Why is this car so finicky? I guess newer cars are?[/QUOTE]
Power isnt everything, a 3500lb car with 400hp could be alot less fast/fun than a properly setup 2500lb car with 200hp. It also sounds like you are not mechanically inclined so expect to pay 3x what DIY would cost on any modifications. And a V8 BMW M series is an entirely different animal than a civic, mainly RWD vs FWD and 2x the cylinders so im not sure where that choice is coming from.
The K series really is an amazing platform though, you can make pretty much any number you want with it and a silly number like 800 isn't outside the reality. I couldn't really imagine most people enjoying the consequences which those numbers come with as a DD at all though.
Look at some of the dyno charts on vit's facebook page, there's a good few examples of setups that you'd be interested in. Hell there's a dyno of a stock 2013 Si with a Kraftwerks kit. Just remember all dynos read drastically different and and the weather conditions will have a big impact as well. Don't try to get caught up on numbers, pay attention to the actual gains in comparison to baselines to see the actual improvement.
[QUOTE=Stiveno;46915482]You missed the point that this subforum has few active posters, and that I wasn't shutting you down, just giving you advice on where to get better answers.
Power isnt everything, a 3500lb car with 400hp could be alot less fast/fun than a properly setup 2500lb car with 200hp. It also sounds like you are not mechanically inclined so expect to pay 3x what DIY would cost on any modifications. And a V8 BMW M series is an entirely different animal than a civic, mainly RWD vs FWD and 2x the cylinders so im not sure where that choice is coming from.[/QUOTE]
Idk dude RWD and 500lb/ft torque is fucking fun.
i think you missed my point again so im just going to stop replying
You can turbo a car yourself for less than $1,500 - if you can weld, and can collect the parts individually. Intercoolers and piping will run $150 as a set. A turbo shell like what I have (T3/T4) can be had for $200 -$300 (don't bank on going cheaper than that) and a manifold will maybe cost your $300 or so. Then you just adapt your fuel system to allow the turbo - run an oil feed to the turbo, and then a drain to the oil pan or into the block at a 45* angle downward. Then you need to plumb the intercooler and cold side, and modify your downpipe to go back to the exhaust from the back of the turbo, or run a new exhaust.
I could give you help on turboing a carbureted car. Otherwise MCM has a nice 3 part series on turboing a Miata that shows EXACTLY how to do what you want to do. Just substitute the word MX5, for Civic, and there you go.
Otherwise put a slant six in it, and I can show you EXACTLY how to turbo that.
[URL=http://s43.photobucket.com/user/serj22/media/Turbo%20225/GOPR0094_zpsc6aa70e3.jpg.html][IMG]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e356/serj22/Turbo%20225/GOPR0094_zpsc6aa70e3.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;46914443]EFs?
Just curious what I need to spend for parts/labor to turbo my Si. I did the normal short ram intake. The car only has 16k miles so I have a bit before the warranty is out.[/QUOTE]
It's not as easy and or as cheap as you may think. The reason other cars have turbos is because they are old. Particular Japanese tuning platforms have had success in the past because there are specific tuning shops who develop parts and kits for production vehicles of the time. Major tuning companies adopt their designs and mass-produce the parts so everyone could have them.
The problem with new vehicles is that no one has yet modified the platform. Meaning, there are no affordable, mass-produced, tuned, bolt-on upgrades yet. So if you'd want to turbo your brand new Civic, you'd have to fabricate everything. From scratch.
That means, finding a fabrication/tuning shop that specializes in creating and designing exhaust manifolds. Pay them by the hour to design, fabricate, bend and weld tubes just for you and your application only. Then the turbo comes into play, which may have to be modified for your unique application. Then there's choosing the fuel system, and engine management system which has to be hooked up and modified from scratch as it is a new car. What with new cars today too, lots of things will go wrong when the stock ECU is removed. So electronics have to be engineered to function with a standalone engine management system.
Etc, etc, etc. It's not as simple as
>oh lets put a turbo on it how much does it cost?
More like
>oh I might as well sell my Civic and pickup an older Si so I could turbo it easily
Prepare to pay into the tens of thousands. My friends own Nissans and despite using a platform 23+ years old, there are still parts they need to fabricate from scratch and modify themselves. With a 2014 car, it's a whole set of problems.
[img]http://photos-a.ak.instagram.com/hphotos-ak-xaf1/10693632_1480259128895384_539827793_n.jpg[/img]
I love the blue/black/polish so much more than the previous white/purple or whatever you had, looks really damn good man.
This thread reminds me how much I really would love to twin-turbo the 'stang....
[QUOTE=sHiBaN;46915843]It's not as easy and or as cheap as you may think. The reason other cars have turbos is because they are old. Particular Japanese tuning platforms have had success in the past because there are specific tuning shops who develop parts and kits for production vehicles of the time. Major tuning companies adopt their designs and mass-produce the parts so everyone could have them.
The problem with new vehicles is that no one has yet modified the platform. Meaning, there are no affordable, mass-produced, tuned, bolt-on upgrades yet. So if you'd want to turbo your brand new Civic, you'd have to fabricate everything. From scratch.
That means, finding a fabrication/tuning shop that specializes in creating and designing exhaust manifolds. Pay them by the hour to design, fabricate, bend and weld tubes just for you and your application only. Then the turbo comes into play, which may have to be modified for your unique application. Then there's choosing the fuel system, and engine management system which has to be hooked up and modified from scratch as it is a new car. What with new cars today too, lots of things will go wrong when the stock ECU is removed. So electronics have to be engineered to function with a standalone engine management system.
Etc, etc, etc. It's not as simple as
>oh lets put a turbo on it how much does it cost?
More like
>oh I might as well sell my Civic and pickup an older Si so I could turbo it easily
Prepare to pay into the tens of thousands. My friends own Nissans and despite using a platform 23+ years old, there are still parts they need to fabricate from scratch and modify themselves. With a 2014 car, it's a whole set of problems.[/QUOTE]
You definitely wouldn't need tens of thousands anymore, everyone has already ran the footwork for the most part. The 9th gen Civics aren't incredibly different than the 8th gens which is the same platform really as the EP3/RSX of 2001 but with DBW 2.4L motors. There's a few options already out so it's not too hard as long as you can drop the cash at it.
My quick google seems that Full-Race has an incredibly well built kit using a quality Borg Warner unit as well and if you want to package it all in you can get the other upgrades you'd need or be looking for from them with it for more. It's also A/C and P/S friendly, but it's going to run around 6k with the kit+other parts you need. PRL Motorsports also makes a kit as well and they are pretty reputable, I've seen too many horror stories about Precision Turbos on the internet while Borg Warners has really started to take off in the import community finally. They have Garret options as well but they're a tad more.
[url]http://www.full-race.com/store/efr-turbo-kit/honda-9th-gen-civic-si-k-series-efr-turbo-kit-2012.html[/url]
[url]http://prlmotorsports.com/2012-civic-si-turbo-system-stage-2.aspx#.VLStdivF8y1[/url]
[QUOTE=slayer3032;46916027]You definitely wouldn't need tens of thousands anymore, everyone has already ran the footwork for the most part. The 9th gen Civics aren't incredibly different than the 8th gens which is the same platform really as the EP3/RSX of 2001 but with DBW 2.4L motors. There's a few options already out so it's not too hard as long as you can drop the cash at it.
My quick google seems that Full-Race has an incredibly well built kit using a quality Borg Warner unit as well and if you want to package it all in you can get the other upgrades you'd need or be looking for from them with it for more. It's also A/C and P/S friendly, but it's going to run around 6k with the kit+other parts you need. PRL Motorsports also makes a kit as well and they are pretty reputable, I've seen too many horror stories about Precision Turbos on the internet while Borg Warners has really started to take off in the import community finally. They have Garret options as well but they're a tad more.
[url]http://www.full-race.com/store/efr-turbo-kit/honda-9th-gen-civic-si-k-series-efr-turbo-kit-2012.html[/url]
[url]http://prlmotorsports.com/2012-civic-si-turbo-system-stage-2.aspx#.VLStdivF8y1[/url][/QUOTE]
Still around that ballpark. Well, apparently they have blueprints for these newer Civics now so it takes time + money off on turboing one.
If he cannot utilize these himself, it will cost him in installation/tuning. So it still isn't a cheap endeavor by any means. The best turbo'ed motors are the ones built from scratch imo.
[t]http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/917/dsc03665u.jpg[/t]
Oh I never said it was cheap, that's why I was suggesting the supercharger route because they have a high resale and they are extremely proven. K series anything isn't cheap really, K series stuff is like the big leagues when it comes to Hondas. K series cars with some bolt-ons+tune can put some serious hurt on D series turbo cars or even sometimes a badly done turbo B. Honestly my initial ballparks were low as there's always unforeseen stuff that comes along that you forgot about. You'd probably expect somewhere between 7 and 12k out the door absolutely done with a supercharger at the low end and a quality turbo kit at the top. Shops just pile on the bills, between a tune and labor you can probably expect to pay a few grand that way depending on if the shop will cut deals and round numbers as a overall package.
Like I said really, unless you're turning the wrenches the first step for you in this path will be talking to your tuner and setting up the plan of action. Hell, some shops will cut insane deals as well or may have some used/spare parts you'll need just sitting around they'll cut you great deals on too. I got my clutch at cost and labor for free because I bought a 40k JDM GSR trans he needed to sell. Hell, he even found a buyer for the clutch I put in it that I hated and had my car back in my hands in just 2 hours with the money he sold my old clutch for off my bill.
I went to another shop to get motor mount inserts since I had a broken mount and they managed to put in stiffer ones than I asked, rape me on the bill, fill the rear with RTV on top of that and tweak the mounts all up. Lets just say I'll never spend a single cent on motor mount inserts in my life again after I paid someone else to replace all 5 because fuck doing the rear mount without a lift with the motor/trans still in the car. I'll fill mounts with window weld from now on or purchase quality replacements, period. My car is still a rattlebox from those miserable 6 months.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;46915297]So I've read all the Honda forums and people talking and bickering about various things...
Hondata is overpriced. $700 for maybe a 30hp gain? Eh. I'll pass. That's worse than the bigger throttle bodies for $400 that do basically nothing.
Realistically, if I'm dropping 5k on a turbo and tuning, with labor I'm going to expect ~400hp. Is this not reasonable in a $25,000 dollar car? Or do I need to find a V6 or V8 BMW M series and sell my car because it's too much of a pain to get some reasonable power above the 220hp I'm at now? Or should I be supercharging? I realize changing things breaks stuff, but for example, the 2006 GTO can handle up to 900HP with basically no mods done outside of transaxle and etc (friend has a GTO with a stroker). Why is this car so finicky? I guess newer cars are?[/QUOTE]
Nope, that's not realistic at all given the mechanical skill I believe you have. It's a new car so aftermarket mods aren't plentiful or cheap. You seem to think this shit is easy, I don't think you realize that it took a team of several hundred engineers to make your car be more than a collection of 20000 bits of metal, rubber, and plastic.
I hope I'm not sounding too rude, but I'm trying to tell you that what you want to do is a very expensive research project. When designing new components, things do break, this isn't a 'your car goes into the shop for a few weeks and then comes out with 400 HP' kind of deal. This kind of work takes years of diligent work, and takes thousands of hours of experience to be done in the most reliable way.
The only other way to do the job is to do what Serj did, but Serj has the experience and patience to just feel things out, you don't seem to have that.
If you knew you wanted power, why did you buy a FWD Honda? 400 HP isn't gonna be livable or usable with that chassis, plus you'll ruin the trans and differential since they are built to go for at least 200k with 220 HP. So add that to the till of research and development costs.
Its gonna cost you more than 5k just to figure out the power, forget the delivery.
[QUOTE=slayer3032;46915849]I love the blue/black/polish so much more than the previous white/purple or whatever you had, looks really damn good man.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. I like it too. It's almost like a stock blue color but I added some Process blue to the mix to make it a little more bright. Today Though I have some silver metal flake base that I am doing to the block. The block is all scraped clean of anything, and I am going to lay that down. If I like it as just silver, then I'll leave it, otherwise I'll be putting candy blue over the top of it. Then later going to an exhaust shop to get new intake piping made that is one solid piece (they weld nicer than I do) and then finishing the exhaust out the back with 2 1/2 or 3". I'm also thinking of having them leave the muffler out. I like having the car be silent but it gets weird looks when you're boosting around ninja style. We'll see.
I did have a lot of patience and failures with my build. I did the research myself, read everything I could, and then went to work. I spent 3 months collecting the parts and understanding what I was doing, and then one weekend and a couple days after to install it. I am constantly changing the jets and updating the fuel system trying to get that perfect mixture.
Once I am all in tune, I should have pushed this 80rwhp motor to 250rwhp like my goal is.
Currently it is 165rwhp with 234ft lbs of torque @8psi @3,500 RPM.
My ignition was cutting out on the Dyno, and was not advancing enough. There is so much to play with with a turbo setup. There is no true bolt on and go to it. even though at this point i have doubled the output of a 47 year old stock engine, it can be better.
My setup is also "safe" because I drive it every day. I have 6k miles on the turbo setup alone, and roll the car a good 12k a year or more. I have the governers on the distributor welded with shorter slots, so it can only advance to 18 degrees, but recently found a way to put a GM HEI ignition on it, and make a hobbs switch to ground out a pin on the HEI to allow for a good 23* of advance, and then under boost, the ignition retards 5 degrees.
I am always working ways to sneak more timing out of it.
For anyone building a turbo or taking on a project they have a limited understanding of, what i did was go to a site based on my car. For me that was forabodiesonly.com.
I started a thread that stated my intentions, and then showed pictures of what I had purchased and done so far. THEN THE PARTS STARTED ROLLING IN. "hey I have a distributor and carburetor you can have for $50", or "Hey I have this....you can have" Also the advice rolls in - pictures, how-to's, etc. People will walk you through whatever you need done. I had 3 days after I did the turbo where I couldn't get the car to start and people spent about 3 pages of thread helping me figure it out. It turned out I had rotated the cam and set the dizzy back where it went, but the timing was way out. IT WAS WAY OUT considering a slant will run at 180* reversed. There were also times I'd build some piping, and then show it, and immediately get "don't do that, it will melt." So then I'd change it.
If anyone ever wants to read what's involved, [URL="http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n188/bennett9000/Cars/mustang-accord_zpsfb701730.jpg"]It's here[/URL].
I also did the whole thing outdoors with no garage - just in the driveway, and some work at my shop.
Ummm serj. That link directs you to a IMG you posted in general disuccusion the ford mustang and Honda accord or w.e.
What makes turboing my em2 civic expensive is engine management. I'm gonna go with kpro or aem ems next time because they're the only true stand alone options, and piggy backs suck. But I could build a whole kit plus standalone management for like 3000-3500 for something GOOD, knowinh people or being able to fabricate exhaust parts yourself makes it much cheaper. I probably spent like 2k for my ebay turbo VAFC piggyback set up, but I wouldn't recommend it. You never want a cheap turbo, wide band, waste gate, bov, or management.
[QUOTE=Slithers;46918694]Nope, that's not realistic at all given the mechanical skill I believe you have. It's a new car so aftermarket mods aren't plentiful or cheap. You seem to think this shit is easy, I don't think you realize that it took a team of several hundred engineers to make your car be more than a collection of 20000 bits of metal, rubber, and plastic.
I hope I'm not sounding too rude, but I'm trying to tell you that what you want to do is a very expensive research project. When designing new components, things do break, this isn't a 'your car goes into the shop for a few weeks and then comes out with 400 HP' kind of deal. This kind of work takes years of diligent work, and takes thousands of hours of experience to be done in the most reliable way.
The only other way to do the job is to do what Serj did, but Serj has the experience and patience to just feel things out, you don't seem to have that.
If you knew you wanted power, why did you buy a FWD Honda? 400 HP isn't gonna be livable or usable with that chassis, plus you'll ruin the trans and differential since they are built to go for at least 200k with 220 HP. So add that to the till of research and development costs.
Its gonna cost you more than 5k just to figure out the power, forget the delivery.[/QUOTE]
You very greatly underestimate the K series platform, these motors are literally the LS of the 4 cylinder world. They too also get swapped into nearly 4 cylinder platform that needs a good swap. 400hp F/I in a Honda isn't like 400hp in a V8 N/A with similar weight, you have turbo lag and you usually have boost by gear so 1st and 2nd are actually usable gears. The K series is also a very well made platform with even length axles and LSD in his case. 400 is really just the bordering number for those platforms where things start to change significantly from stock. There's like thousands of 600hp+ K series cars.
Tuner shops are literally there to be a 'your car goes into the shop for a few weeks and then comes out with 400 HP' type of place. That's the whole point of it. Those transmissions can tend to be on the weak side if you slam the shit out of them like anything and broken K series transmissions are far from uncommon at the strip. It would be perfectly fine as long as you don't launch control and launch it off it's nuts all the time. The only difference is he'll pay twice as much as many people do for the same results although with these cars there's about 10x more people who don't wrench on them as do.
This is a similar setup(in some ways) to the Integra Type-R which can spank many cars on the track and is setup and handles amazingly. Remember though that the ITR is just a handbuilt motor with a B16 Civic trans, LSD, chassis bracing and springs/struts/swaybars/5lug/bigger brakes. The biggest problem with FWD is that shitty car makers and cheaper cars have uneven axles and open diffs, the difference between my EF and my Integra is pretty much just power, suspension rates and an uneven axle setup. The real difference is that they don't even feel like the same car despite almost all of the underpinnings being exactly the same short of weight. The difference between an uneven axle car like 95% of FWD cars are and a even is absolutely astounding.
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