[QUOTE=D3TBS;37158652]you can see it's not a trace, there's some differences here and there (example: puppies head in the drawing is bigger, and the ear is higher), but it's still a cool drawing, doesn't lose anything for just being a reference of that image[/QUOTE]
fair enough. its a very good ....copy? ....i can't find the word. either way, i like it.
so the lesson for my is tracing = bad, referencing = good?
so i can use bases? the way i have been all along?
[editline]10th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=dgg;37158795]What makes you even think he traced it?
There is a huge difference between tracing and using references.
References is good. Trace is bad.[/QUOTE]
it looked VERY similar, thats all.
[QUOTE=Femedic;37158873]so i can use bases? the way i have been all along?[/QUOTE]
using bases is a poor habit
I'm not really sure what a base is.
[QUOTE=Juniez;37158930]using bases is a poor habit[/QUOTE]
that it is, but i am very picky with which ones i use, and even then i change almost everything about it.
[QUOTE=Femedic;37158873]so the lesson for my is tracing = bad, referencing = good?
so i can use bases? the way i have been all along?
it looked VERY similar, thats all.[/QUOTE]
Uh... use bases? You mean draw over already made work? No bro, that's worse than tracing. You're just drawing outfits and accessory on a drawing someone else made.
Reference = Looking at a picture but not touching it at all. No draw over, no measuring, no nothing. Just look at it and try to draw it from scratch.
Of course it looks similar, it's the same dog. If it didn't look similar then he would suck ass at drawing.
I think that depends on if you're just referencing the base or actually tracing/drawing on top of it
[QUOTE=Femedic;37159022]that it is, but i am very picky with which ones i use, and even then i change almost everything about it.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter. You're not making your own shit.
is it like one of those templates for drawing stuff on top of? yeah you won't learn anything using one of those. I guess the more you modify it the more ethical it becomes, but either way you're much better off purposefully building drawings from refs/your imagination
[QUOTE=dgg;37159048]Doesn't matter. You're not making your own shit.[/QUOTE]
i always reference, often pulling the base apart, then gluing them back together. i seriously just use them for the camera angles.
all the stuff i plastered on page 164? i didn't use bases. at all. the one i have as my icon is my favourite, i spent the most time on it.
[QUOTE=Femedic;37159081]i always reference, often pulling the base apart, then gluing them back together. i seriously just use them for the camera angles.
[/QUOTE]
I suggest just using pictures of people as reference for positions than bases.
Hell, I don't suggest using bases at all. If you really want a position just use one of these as a ref:
[img]http://beyouonlybetter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/istockphoto_5597539-wooden-drawing-doll.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Chaplin;37159147]I suggest just using pictures of people as reference for positions than bases.[/QUOTE]
i use so many different types of images for reference, bases, photos, other people's work, just anything to help me with the image i want to draw, but yeah, i think i'll give the more realistic anatomy a try later.
[QUOTE=Femedic;37159081]i always reference, often pulling the base apart, then gluing them back together. i seriously just use them for the camera angles.
all the stuff i plastered on page 164? i didn't use bases. at all. the one i have as my icon is my favourite, i spent the most time on it.[/QUOTE]
DON'T USE BASES.
It's that simple. Just don't ever use them. You will not improve and you will keep drawing sylized cartoon stuff before even knowing how to properly draw a human, and you will struggle to get better.
Right now you are not very good at drawing. You really aren't. You can't draw long strokes, only skribbly sketchy ones, you draw cartoon characters but you don't know how to draw a human being which you need to know first. You need to practice on real human beings instead of focusing on cartoon characters that allows you to make a fuckton of excuses to make yourself feel better about your not all that good work, because you can just go "oh, but no, that's just my style" and "oh, but they are supposed to be like that". You'll give yourself a metric ton of reasons to not improve, and dumb people will praise your work because they are equally as terrible or doesn't know how to draw at all and just envy anyone that can do better than they can.
[editline]10th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Femedic;37159198]i use so many different types of images for reference, bases, photos, other people's work, just anything to help me with the image i want to draw, but yeah, i think i'll give the more realistic anatomy a try later.[/QUOTE]
It's good to gather a lot of images to use for reference for what you want to draw, keep that habit.
But learn to draw real people before you continue drawing cartoon figures. Any proper comic artist and animator will tell you that you need to know how to draw a real human being before you can properly draw a cartoon human.
[QUOTE=Chaplin;37159147]I suggest just using pictures of people as reference for positions than bases.
Hell, I don't suggest using bases at all. If you really want a position just use one of these as a ref:
[img]http://beyouonlybetter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/istockphoto_5597539-wooden-drawing-doll.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
i have one of those. he is very un-balanced and prone to face-planting into as many things as it possibly can, unless you make it do aeroplane arms. its old. very old.
I think I'm gonna do a series of fast and loose portraits of some of the mug shots in [url=http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1203421&page=5]this thread[/url] soon. some of them look so fucking fun to draw.
[img_thumb]http://images.jailbase.com/arrested/fl-vcc/2012-03-01/michael-wantland-869028.pic1.jpg[/img_thumb][img_thumb]http://images.jailbase.com/arrested/fl-vcc/2012-07-27/joseph-proudfoot-880210.pic1.jpg[/img_thumb][img_thumb]http://images.jailbase.com/arrested/tx-dc/2012-07-17/charles-fryar-12048338.pic1.jpg[/img_thumb][img_thumb]http://images.jailbase.com/arrested/fl-bso/2012-08-07/william-lockard-571205898.pic1.jpg[/img_thumb]
and my personal favourite: [img_thumb]http://images.jailbase.com/arrested/oh-btso/2012-06-28/richard-o-keeton-160667-001.pic1.jpg[/img_thumb]
we should choose one and all try to draw it the best tomorrow, yeah? it'll be fun
[QUOTE=dgg;37159199]DON'T USE BASES.
It's that simple. Just don't ever use them. You will not improve and you will keep drawing sylized cartoon stuff before even knowing how to properly draw a human, and you will struggle to get better.
Right now you are not very good at drawing. You really aren't. You can't draw long strokes, only skribbly sketchy ones, you draw cartoon characters but you don't know how to draw a human being which you need to know first. You need to practice on real human beings instead of focusing on cartoon characters that allows you to make a fuckton of excuses to make yourself feel better about your not all that good work, because you can just go "oh, but no, that's just my style" and "oh, but they are supposed to be like that". You'll give yourself a metric ton of reasons to not improve, and dumb people will praise your work because they are equally as terrible or doesn't know how to draw at all and just envy anyone that can do better than they can.
[editline]10th August 2012[/editline]
It's good to gather a lot of images to use for reference for what you want to draw, keep that habit.
But learn to draw real people before you continue drawing cartoon figures. Any proper comic artist and animator will tell you that you need to know how to draw a real human being before you can properly draw a cartoon human.[/QUOTE]
Here seems to be the only place i can get any attention for my work. do you have any idea how much it hurts when shitty sonic OCs or TRACES of ALREADY traced bases get more views/likes/comments than something you worked your ass off over? I post a picture which i took at least five days to draw and get FUCKING NOTHING in the way of recognition, i have 2 followers on that site, and one of them is my boyfriend! i know that i need to improve, and i can certainly draw much better than i did in art classes 2 years ago, its just so annoying, i am learning about anatomy, slowly, and getting used to a drawing tablet which is bigger than my face, telling me straight out that i can't draw? that hurt. i know that tough love is a thing here, (Robbobin :L). i came here for help on my art, and treating me like Andrew Dobson/ Tom Preston or whatever the bloody hell his name is really isn't what i was going for.
so what you're saying is i should keep doing the learning i was already doing? okay
when did i say that this is my style? with Billie? that was a doodle, not intended to be anything important, i just wanted to see how he'd turn out if i cut myself off from any forms of referencing.
[editline]10th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Robbobin;37159297]I think I'm gonna do a series of fast and loose portraits of some of the mug shots...choose one and all try to draw it the best tomorrow, yeah? it'll be fun[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://mugshotrow.com/"]psst.... over here[/URL]
[IMG]http://mugshotrow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/mf.jpg[/IMG]
Believe me a year ago I remember ranting at people saying we should be kinder and more sensitive, it's pretty funny that I'd be finding myself in this position, but giving feedback that's honest, informative, helpful AND kind takes a hell of a lot of time and patience, just because it's so hard to find the right words. It's absolutely not meant personally and receiving criticism is always hard even when it is sensitive. Criticism here isn't meant to be brutal or anything close to a series of put-downs, but it's just objective (or tries to be) and honest.
But yeah, try your best to stop caring about praise because if you go out looking for it, it's really really meaningless and easy to find (just not in this thread) and remember most of us just want to see members become better artists as fast as possible!
[QUOTE=Femedic;37159376]Okay, okay. Here seems to be the only place i can get any attention for my work. do you have any idea how much it hurts when shitty sonic OCs or TRACES of ALREADY traced bases get more views/likes/comments than something you worked your ass off over? I post a picture which i took at least five days to draw and get FUCKING NOTHING in the way of recognition, i have 2 followers on that site, and one of them is my boyfriend! i know that i need to improve, and i can certainly draw much better than i did in art classes 2 years ago, its just so annoying, i am learning about anatomy, slowly, and getting used to a drawing tablet which is bigger than my face, telling me straight out that i can't draw? that hurt. i know that tough love is a thing here, (Robbobin :L). i came here for help on my art, and treating me like Andrew Dobson/ Tom Preston or whatever the bloody hell his name is really isn't what i was going for.[/QUOTE]
How much time you sink into a drawing isn't an indicator of how good it is. Quite the contrary, the more time you spend doing a drawing, the worse it usually becomes, you sit there fiddeling with details and adjusting single strokes or adding useless freckles. You spend time on things that don't improve your artwork and many times degrade it. You polish stuff that is better left rough. (seriously, none of the drawings you posted should take 5 days, they should take at most 1 hour)
The more you practice, study and learn, the faster you'll draw and it will be more precise and look better. And don't ever sit and fiddle with a drawing for hours just to add in details that doesn't say anything about the characters personality or backstory. Do what's important and leave it. The more time you spend making new drawings instead of adding tidbits to one drawing, the more you'll improve.
Also if you seek attention and likes then art is not the way to go. Make stuff you want to make and make the process of drawing the reward. Enjoying drawing is what you should aim for, not enjoying getting publicity and honor for making a drawing like a bazillion other people also do.
People that get tons of favs and likes on their Sonic base traces are people that actively go onto other peoples equally shitty drawings, tell them how fucking cool they are and how they favourited their drawings and then tell them that they also made drawings like that and ask them for favs and likes and comments. They also go around forums shitposting their drawings trying to draw as much attention as possible from people equally as terrible as them.
If you're jealous of shitty people getting favourable replies from shitty people, then you either haven't thought about it, or you are equally as shitty.
Though love is very much a thing here and you'll hate the living shit out of it at first, but you'll grow accustomed to it. A tip is to just care about the constructive and helpful parts and ignore everything else. We're just random people you don't know on the internet, why should we mean anything to you?
[QUOTE=Robbobin;37159297]I think I'm gonna do a series of fast and loose portraits of some of the mug shots in [URL="http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1203421&page=5"]this thread[/URL] soon. some of them look so fucking fun to draw.
[img_thumb]http://images.jailbase.com/arrested/fl-vcc/2012-03-01/michael-wantland-869028.pic1.jpg[/img_thumb][img_thumb]http://images.jailbase.com/arrested/fl-vcc/2012-07-27/joseph-proudfoot-880210.pic1.jpg[/img_thumb][img_thumb]http://images.jailbase.com/arrested/tx-dc/2012-07-17/charles-fryar-12048338.pic1.jpg[/img_thumb][img_thumb]http://images.jailbase.com/arrested/fl-bso/2012-08-07/william-lockard-571205898.pic1.jpg[/img_thumb]
and my personal favourite: [img_thumb]http://images.jailbase.com/arrested/oh-btso/2012-06-28/richard-o-keeton-160667-001.pic1.jpg[/img_thumb]
we should choose one and all try to draw it the best tomorrow, yeah? it'll be fun[/QUOTE]
sea pirates
they are in the wrong era
I say we do the far right mugshot unless anyone else has any strong feelings otherwise. everyone try to draw it tomorrow, however you want.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;37159569]Believe me a year ago I remember ranting at people saying we should be kinder and more sensitive, it's pretty funny that I'd be finding myself in this position, but giving feedback that's honest, informative, helpful AND kind takes a hell of a lot of time and patience, just because it's so hard to find the right words. It's absolutely not meant personally and receiving criticism is always hard even when it is sensitive. Criticism here isn't meant to be brutal or anything close to a series of put-downs, but it's just objective (or tries to be) and honest.
But yeah, try your best to stop caring about praise because if you go out looking for it, it's really really meaningless and easy to find (just not in this thread) and remember most of us just want to see members become better artists as fast as possible![/QUOTE]
i don't go out looking for it, believe me, i stopped about a month after joining DA. I mean, some of my pieces got favourited, but only by the people who had created the base, or the images i had drawn inspiration from, so that doesn't really count.
There seems to be no point if the only people who seem to say anything about my work are my friends and family. they are terrible at being critics, since to them, everything i draw is 'brilliant', and 'amazing' and 'oh how i wish i could draw the way you do'. I know my work is bad, i look at some things i have drawn, or even while i am drawing it, and think 'what on earth is this meant to be?', then i toss it aside, and save it for later when i can maybe rescue it. I have one picture of a HL2 Combine Elite that i am truly happy with. It's just from the shoulders up, but i like it. I'll find it for you.
DGG means to say that tough love is a thing FOR SOME PEOPLE here. It's not an overarching, subforum-wide attitude; a fair few are pretty openly kind in the way they deal with people. You've just got to find ways to take on what both 'types' are saying because if you start working in the industry I'm pretty sure you'll get people who are harsh and people who are mellow.
don't worry, no matter how much I like a piece at the time, the next day I'll still find things about it that I hate. I did two of these 2m tall chalk self-portraits that took about 15 hours each a couple of years ago, thought they were brilliant until I looked at them the next day and actually felt embarrassed to look at them. ultimately this is a good thing though; identifying what's wrong with your work is imo the only skill you need to be a good artist.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;37159735]don't worry, no matter how much I like a piece at the time, the next day I'll still find things about it that I hate. I did two of these 2m tall chalk self-portraits that took about 15 hours each a couple of years ago, thought they were brilliant until I looked at them the next day and actually felt embarrassed to look at them[/QUOTE]
it's alllllllllllways helpful to go away for a bit several times during an image and then come back after your eyes have freshened up a bit. I do the same thing, working for hours on a painting then come back a while later when its time to submit it online or give it to a friend and I see dozens of awful things
[QUOTE=dgg;37159601]How much time you sink...[/QUOTE]
I like this. This is nice. This is the kind of thing i was hoping for.
Its not that I've spent forever giving someone a mustache or something, it's that i sit there, surrounded by concepts, some rattling around in my head, some on paper. i can have a concept brewing for weeks before letting it out, i then spend time figuring out what exactly is is the character(s) in question will be doing. when i finally have that figured, i plan where they'd be, what they'd be wearing, who they'd be with etc. then when i have that checked, i begin mapping everything out. i put the wire bodies, the scenery, and then the clothes and details, then i colour and shade. it takes me a very long time to do this. i have become afraid of getting something wrong and being ridiculed for it, and am sure i have developed some form of ocd, since i am never happy with how the pictures turn out, often changing them months after they were finished- if they were finished. i'm a slow worker because of this. i have the urge to draw ghouls based on my own face now, but its nearly 3am. bugger.
Don't overthink your artwork; that's my biggest fault too. it's the reason i've previously posted so little stuff, and why a-level art was one of the most stressful experiences of my life. i hate doing shitty artwork but it's better to be prolific and maybe produce lots of really shitty pieces and a couple of good ones than dwell too much and ultimately fail to live up to your plans 90% of the time. I think literally every piece i've done that's been at all successful happened because i just stopped thinking or caring if i do a shitty job and just jump in.
I agree; I think it's better to pump out a lot of stuff and critique each one (when you're done go back and write down what you like, what you don't, what could be done better, etc) rather than spend hours tweaking each every little thing.
Obviously, in 'The Industry', depending on your job, you may well have to make sure everything is pixel-perfect. But at this stage when we're most of us are developing our basic skills, it's better not to be too pedantic.
That's my opinion, anyway. Remember to always critique your own stuff; unless you're looking back and judging what you've done you won't learn nearly as fast.
[QUOTE=Femedic;37159821]I like this. This is nice. This is the kind of thing i was hoping for.
Its not that I've spent forever giving someone a mustache or something, it's that i sit there, surrounded by concepts, some rattling around in my head, some on paper. i can have a concept brewing for weeks before letting it out, i then spend time figuring out what exactly is is the character(s) in question will be doing. when i finally have that figured, i plan where they'd be, what they'd be wearing, who they'd be with etc. then when i have that checked, i begin mapping everything out. i put the wire bodies, the scenery, and then the clothes and details, then i colour and shade. it takes me a very long time to do this. i have become afraid of getting something wrong and being ridiculed for it, and am sure i have developed some form of ocd, since i am never happy with how the pictures turn out, often changing them months after they were finished- if they were finished. i'm a slow worker because of this. i have the urge to draw ghouls based on my own face now, but its nearly 3am. bugger.[/QUOTE]
With concepts you should just get a little notebook that fits in your pocket, or a dedicated sketch block, and just draw down your concepts. Don't draw them well, just draw them so you know what it is. When you've got your concepts down on paper you can improve them more easily and you will keep them pure (you don't forget parts and add other parts because you kept it in your head).
Also, while all of this is good stuff, it isn't what you should be doing right now. You're pouring buckets of water of your head. You're doing way to much research without having any way to properly use it. It's like when people want to make a game and make up these big ass fanfic stories for them, but they haven't given a second thought to how the game should be played, just the story. Yeah, great, you made up a whole story you could make a game out of, but you don't know how to actually make a game nor do you know what makes a game.
You need to lube yourself up and do lots of things wrong. If you do something wrong you learn. You can't learn if you avoid wrong doing. Without doing something the wrong way you can never know how to do it the right way. Because without wrong there is no right, and nobody is perfect on the first try. We fail, learn from our failures, and then fail even more, learn even more, and then we do something that is almost perfect, but not quite, and we never will, because that's impossible and wouldn't be fun.
Also, don't change your work after you've decided it's done. If you want to change something, draw it from scratch again, don't modify your work. Leave it as it is. You will learn absolutely nothing from modifying your work at a later time, you will learn heaps more if you try to re-draw it from scratch and fix what you think is wrong with it, you will also see if you have improved and you can look back on your old work like it actually was.
[editline]10th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Maloof?;37159991]Obviously, in 'The Industry', depending on your job, you may well have to make sure everything is pixel-perfect. But at this stage when we're most of us are developing our basic skills, it's better not to be too pedantic.[/QUOTE]
The end result needs to be as good as possible.
But the process up to a perfect result is filled with ten to hundreds of different sketches, revisions, doodles and brainfarts.
The most important skill one can have in any art-business is making sketches. Just sketch the shit out of anything. Anything that comes to mind should be put down on paper.
All that overplanning is what is holding you back. Mistakes are part of the learning process, if you're trying desperately to avoid them you're just burning up time. It's like you want to jump over a ditch or something, you need to test yourself and be confident and you'll probably make it, as opposed to being so afraid of falling in that you spend days calculating trajectories and taking a 5km run up to it that will probably just tire you out before you actually get to doing it.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;37159919]Don't overthink your artwork; that's my biggest fault too. it's the reason i've previously posted so little stuff, and why a-level art was one of the most stressful experiences of my life. i hate doing shitty artwork but it's better to be prolific and maybe produce lots of really shitty pieces and a couple of good ones than dwell too much and ultimately fail to live up to your plans 90% of the time. I think literally every piece i've done that's been at all successful happened because i just stopped thinking or caring if i do a shitty job and just jump in.[/QUOTE]
A-Level art was hell for me too, i chose Alice in wonderland and making childhood things dark and twisted as my theme (i'm annoyed i didn't know about McGee's version), my teacher told me to use...the guy who makes cartoon characters 'do' things together, i forget the artists name, but being the very sheltered person i was, i found it horrible that she would want me to draw such filth. i would draw and paint anything i could whenever i could. we were told tracing is bad, but were allowed to use our imagination. i kid you not, the AS kids would trace from the projector, and the one time i drew the hatter, the hare and the mouse as zombies, the teacher told me off, and i had to go back to copying the images in the books i had. the teacher called out in the middle of the lesson, having looked through one of the AS student's folders, and told us that we should be working at the same level as them. at least 6 tables were covered in work, and all of it completely perfect. it must've been witchcraft, or these people do not sleep.
[QUOTE=MakoSkyDub;37160068]All that overplanning is what is holding you back. Mistakes are part of the learning process, if you're trying desperately to avoid them you're just burning up time. It's like you want to jump over a ditch or something, you need to test yourself and be confident and you'll probably make it, as opposed to being so afraid of falling in that you spend days calculating trajectories and taking a 5km run up to it that will probably just tire you out before you actually get to doing it.[/QUOTE]
THIS EXACTLY
Try not to be afraid of making mistakes.
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