• Transgender Rights
    187 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32967321]I have never played Deus Ex. Also with regards to the enhancement, I meant that a surgery to change the gender is a waste, people can still lead healthy fulfilling lives with their own personal wishes. However one such wish that cannot be implemented is one that is essentially decoration of the outside body that serves no tangible purpose, much like makeup, jewellery, piercings, rich clothes, etc that are wasteful.[/QUOTE] Wasteful how? Your arguments come off subjective, and somewhat bigoted. Usually transsexual procedures are a major personal desire to those who feel like they are not of the correct sex, and do much more than "decoration of the outside body", but make them a much happier person in general. I have a friend who is intersexual, when they were born their parents pretty much were told to pick between male or female for official records. They were raised male, but have always thought themselves to be female and it has become a serious matter in their life. Would you deny them these procedures on the grounds of "needless decoration"?
[QUOTE=mastermaul;32967472]Wasteful how? Your arguments come off subjective, and somewhat bigoted. Usually transsexual procedures are a major personal desire to those who feel like they are not of the correct sex, and do much more than "decoration of the outside body", but make them a much happier person in general.[/QUOTE] Well essentially decoration of the outside body is what it is. They may look different but for all intents and purposes they still have the same biological body as they did before. The procedures would be looked into to see what ways it can actually change the person instead of merely changing their appearance. Followed then by working into preventing it entirely. I fail to see in what way my argument is subjective and bigoted.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32967321]However one such wish that cannot be implemented is one that is essentially decoration of the outside body that serves no tangible purpose, much like makeup, jewellery, piercings, rich clothes, etc that are wasteful.[/QUOTE] Uh... They actually do serve a tangible purpose? Otherwise people wouldn't do it. they all serve the purpose of making someone more physically attractive therefore they have a purpose. If you want to talk about things that are wasteful and serve no tangible purpose like that then I guess you could say that playing video games or posting on Facepunch is wasteful and serves no tangible purpose either, huh? [QUOTE=The one that is;32967390]A man is a man, a woman is a woman, be gay or lesbian if you want, you arn't the other no matter how fucked up in the head you happen to be.[/QUOTE] And why is that? Why do you have to be fucked up in the head to feel uncomfortable in the body you were born in?
transgendered individuals are equal to everyone else, but nobody is obligated to identify them by their preferred genders
[QUOTE=Rubs10;32964779]We should get rid of separate bathrooms entirely.[/QUOTE] This. Why go through the trouble of adding a third bathroom for trans people, when you could just get rid having gender associated bathrooms. It's cheaper, and eliminates all the issues.
[QUOTE=TropicalV2;32968366]transgendered individuals are equal to everyone else, but nobody is obligated to identify them by their preferred genders[/QUOTE] It's kinda a thing of respect. Just because you're not obligated to doesn't mean it's any less rude if you don't.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32964986]We should work on finding out the number of transexxuals that are created every year, followed by finding out how much better they work after surgery and if the advantages are good in the long run. Next we find out how it is without the surgery, and depending upon how much their labour produces compared to those with surgery and determine the costs saved by not having a surgery and see the long term advantages. If it is found that the latter or former is more efficient, go with the one that is. There are also many ways to increase happiness of labourers. For example with rewards for reaching targets, entertainment, consumer goods, food/drink, etc. If the surgery group is found to be more efficient, then work towards slowly reducing the number so as to cure and prevent the condition of gender dysphoria over time so as to reduce the cost of surgeries. You also must consider that whilst it benefits the individual, we must take into account if it benefits everyone.[/QUOTE] Umm, I appreciate your earnest effort. But you're treating it like a entrepreneur for whatever reason. In psychology, "diagnosing" gender dysphoria isn't feasible, because these kinds of things aren't black and white issues. Which means they aren't simple, because humans and their sexuality are very complex. With something like this, the easiest and most effective solution would just be to accept it for what it is, and grant equal rights.
[QUOTE=Onyx3173;32968552]It's kinda a thing of respect. Just because you're not obligated to doesn't mean it's any less rude if you don't.[/QUOTE] i'm not going to tell someone they're rude because they have beliefs that differ from mine some people think that your biological sex is your biological sex
As far as the point on bathrooms, I don't really understand it. Who is the "we". I mean what is being proposed? Is it just people voluntarily moving to a 1 or 3 bathroom setup, or is there some law that requires all new places to just have 1 or 3 bathrooms. Or is this just an idea of things should be done?
If the question is "should so-and-so have equal human rights," then the answer is always the same as this: Are they a human?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32967321]decoration of the outside body that serves no tangible purpose, much like makeup, jewellery, piercings, rich clothes[/QUOTE] There's nothing wrong with those things either.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32967321]I have never played Deus Ex. Also with regards to the enhancement, I meant that a surgery to change the gender is a waste, people can still lead healthy fulfilling lives with their own personal wishes. However one such wish that cannot be implemented is one that is essentially decoration of the outside body that serves no tangible purpose, much like makeup, jewellery, piercings, rich clothes, etc that are wasteful.[/QUOTE] So you'd be perfectly fine if everyone walked around wearing rags and a lot of women went around noticably less hot than before? Look, some things have no real purpose at all ever, like the novelty Minecraft foam pickaxe. It's just nice to have them.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32967321]I have never played Deus Ex. Also with regards to the enhancement, I meant that a surgery to change the gender is a waste, people can still lead healthy fulfilling lives with their own personal wishes. However one such wish that cannot be implemented is one that is essentially decoration of the outside body that serves no tangible purpose, much like makeup, jewellery, piercings, rich clothes, etc that are wasteful.[/QUOTE] and? What the hell are you arguing for here? Utilitarianism? People don't dictate their lives according to what provides a "tangible benefit" to society.
I dislike transgenders purely from a man's perspective. You're dating this chick and all, but then she has a dick. Some will enjoy that, but not me. Other than that, why can't they have rights? Who cares how you dress or act. Oh right, stupid people do.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32975409]I dislike transgenders purely from a man's perspective. You're dating this chick and all, but then she has a dick. Some will enjoy that, but not me. Other than that, why can't they have rights? Who cares how you dress or act. Oh right, stupid people do.[/QUOTE] You're thinking of transsexuals. Transgendered people have undergone or are undergoing a procedure that will make them biologically closer to the gender they weren't born as.
[QUOTE=shozamar;32975681]You're thinking of transsexuals. Transgendered people have undergone or are undergoing a procedure that will make them biologically closer to the gender they weren't born as.[/QUOTE] Both of your definitions there are wrong. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism[/url] Also will you please stop acting like transgendered people are going to try to trick you into sleeping with them and then spring the fact they may (depending on their pre-op/post-op status) have a penis on you. Could you also all please take a moment to consider how hard it is to find serious relationships as a transsexual (especially pre-op, but due to social attitudes sometimes post-op aswell), because I can assure you that it's much harder, and overall being transgendered takes a real toll on your mental state. Sometimes it feels like people treat transgendered people like emotionless objects, and it's complete bullshit because you're constantly subjected to huge barrages of emotion, especially as transitioning takes ages which can be incredibly distressing at times. I think that some people here need to take a minute to sit back and think of exactly how badly a person has to hate being their sex in order to want to change it, and therefore realise just how horrible an experience it is.
For me the difference lies in their bodies. A biologically and externally male individual should still be listed and counted as a male individual irregardless of his wishes. Same reasoning obviously goes for an externally female person who sees themself as male. But the moment they get SRS they are viable in my book to be listed as their new gender. This isn't something to stop said person from refering to themselves as her or he, but this is something to kinda avoid the entire problem of a separate third gender into which many seem to be positioning themselves. Of course that doesn't deny them any rights in my book.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;32975923]This isn't something to stop said person from refering to themselves as her or he, but this is something to kinda avoid the entire [B]problem of a separate third gender into which many seem to be positioning themselves.[/B][/QUOTE] How is third gender a problem? I know a person who's genderqueer and completely happy with it.
I'm transgendered and it's very difficult. I only recently have started to dress according to my gender. I'm very anxious while walking around in school, coming sweaty to class. I also get weird looks and laughs from people, and I had some people ask "is it a boy or a girl?", or even directly "are you a boy or a girl?", refusing to answer them. I think people really need to think about how transgendered people feel, and employers/officials/etc should treat people according to their gender, not what sex is written in their documents. [QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32975409]I dislike transgenders purely from a man's perspective. You're dating this chick and all, but then she has a dick. Some will enjoy that, but not me.[/QUOTE] Generalizing much? I'm not out to trick someone into seeing a dick.
Everyone has a right to be happy; it's as simple as that. Problem is, most people underestimate the courage required to transition genders, as well as being too ingrained in the societal concept of the gender binary to understand the feelings of people who don't conform with the norm.
Treat them like the normal functioning members of society they are.
Transgender people have the right to live a happy life free of discrimination because they're humans and all humans deserve the right to live a happy life free of discrimination.
[QUOTE=J. Jett;32976179]I'm transgendered and it's very difficult. I only recently have started to dress according to my gender. I'm very anxious while walking around in school, coming sweaty to class. I also get weird looks and laughs from people, and I had some people ask "is it a boy or a girl?", or even directly "are you a boy or a girl?", refusing to answer them. I think people really need to think about how transgendered people feel, and employers/officials/etc should treat people according to their gender, not what sex is written in their documents. Generalizing much? I'm not out to trick someone into seeing a dick.[/QUOTE] To put it simple - the cost, ease, and relative expectations from the majority. If you have external male sexual organs, then you have nothing to do on a female toilet irregardless of what your mind tells you you are. Likewise the same. If you have sex reassignment surgery, then be free to go there as you wish and most likely people won't raise an eyebrow either. The third gender itself brings a slew of other problems ranging from cost, to an actual even grater ostracism of transgender people. If employers were suddenly forced to provide areas for this gender, I could see many refusing to hire them on the grounds of their inability to provide said facilities for them. As far as I know (I may be mistaken obviously) the majority of transgender people do not see themselves as a third gender but the opposite gender they are biologically. Keep in mind I'm not talking about the personal views of the person in question - if they believe themselves to be a completely different gender, than so be it. But from a certain standpoint they cannot throw incumbent costs at the majority of society. Same goes for certain societal expectations.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;32977708]If you have external male sexual organs, then you have nothing to do on a female toilet irregardless of what your mind tells you you are. Likewise the same. If you have sex reassignment surgery, then be free to go there as you wish and most likely people won't raise an eyebrow either.[/QUOTE] So a transwoman who wears girls clothing and identifies as a girl shouldn't go to the girls toilets because they have male genetalia? I've had this problem before, there's no way I'm ever going into a guys toilet while I'm dressed up as a girl.
You're externally still a man. In most cases you cannot expect other woman to be fine with this. In a sense, wearing female clothes while externally still male in public is your own decision, one that should not have much effect on other people. In a sense it comes to a conflict of your right against the rights of others. Imagine if you were working at a company and did this and other female employees complained. The employer would most likely be forced to warn you about this behavior and if you continued to do it, fire you. To be honest in some cases and some countries an employer could most likely fire you for not adhering to dresscode, most of all if you were to be dealing with other people. After you get the surgery it's a completely different ballgame of course. Don't take me wrong - I'm not going against your personal inner beliefs. This is more or less a conflict of interests, rights and expectations dealing with the external side of things.
Why is it a different ballgame after the surgery? It's not like I'm running into the girls bathroom with my dick out and waving it in peoples' faces. I go into a private cubicle sit down and do my business. I look like a girl and I am not going to put myself at risk by going into the guys bathroom.
So it's completely fine and different only after a surgery is done? Why? Nobody's looking inside of your pants or anything.
[QUOTE=Keyblockor;32964333]I'll treat them like people with no discrimination, but I must admit if i'm going to be going out with a woman and to find out she used to be a man i'd be freaked out and exit the relationship immediately, apologizing profusely for my actions.[/QUOTE] Is this really something that is restricted to trans* people, though? If you strongly wanted a family of your own blood, and dated someone who was infertile , is that not analogous? Or was homosexual, or a criminal, or a republican and so on? [editline]27th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Metanar;32977897]Why is it a different ballgame after the surgery? It's not like I'm running into the girls bathroom with my dick out and waving it in peoples' faces. I go into a private cubicle sit down and do my business. I look like a girl and I am not going to put myself at risk by going into the guys bathroom.[/QUOTE] I feel this distinction is entirely constructed (I mean, what isn't, but this in particular is very apparent), because there are plenty of unisex toilets around the world. I find the whole "well rapes will increase" argument is fucking bullshit, because it paints trans* people as these kind of ill psychotic creatures, not to mention there is virtually no protection to stop a man actually going into a female bathroom anyhow. [editline]27th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Metanar;32975835]Also will you please stop acting like transgendered people are going to try to trick you into sleeping with them and then spring the fact they may (depending on their pre-op/post-op status) have a penis on you.[/QUOTE] Absolutely. I'm not trans* myself, but I at least begin to conceptualize the entire brutal minefield of what someone has to go through just to find a connection with an exist complex of oppression. There are plenty of cases where a trans person has been viciously attacked after telling people that aspect of their identity, whether that's at the start of a relationship or further down. An open question to the trans* people writing here, how do you identify with the gender that is disparate to your external sex? Is it a matter of feeling more feminine than masculine, or sexual attraction, or? I've always been interested in how trans* interweaves with the gender binary, because it's not a binary, and I'm not sure how you locate yourself on that spectrum?
[QUOTE=J. Jett;32976179]I'm transgendered and it's very difficult. I only recently have started to dress according to my gender. I'm very anxious while walking around in school, coming sweaty to class. I also get weird looks and laughs from people, and I had some people ask "is it a boy or a girl?", or even directly "are you a boy or a girl?", refusing to answer them. I think people really need to think about how transgendered people feel, and employers/officials/etc should treat people according to their gender, not what sex is written in their documents.[/QUOTE] That argument doesn't work. It follows under the logic of: I make choice X People don't accept choice X People should accept choice X The fallacy is that the conclusion comes completely from your opinion of choice X. Your opinion of choice X has nothing to do with whether people should accept choice X, unless you consider yourself to be a moral authority. To go further, you need to make clear the means to achieve your goal. Education, media, law? It could be all three, or any combination. Would you support a law requiring all transgendered (or all people in general) to be called by the gender they wish to be called? Is this just an "ought" remark where you are just stating an opinion and aren't proposing and means to achieve the end? Like when someone says "people ought to have more manner", they clearly aren't implying any means to achieve that end or that it would be useful to try to attain that goal. When it comes to social issues though, it is quite different, and when someone says "people ought not to be racist", they follow it up with means to achieve that end.
[QUOTE=Pepin;32980927]That argument doesn't work. It follows under the logic of: I make choice X People don't accept choice X People should accept choice X The fallacy is that the conclusion comes completely from your opinion of choice X. Your opinion of choice X has nothing to do with whether people should accept choice X, unless you consider yourself to be a moral authority. To go further, you need to make clear the means to achieve your goal. Education, media, law? It could be all three, or any combination. Would you support a law requiring all transgendered (or all people in general) to be called by the gender they wish to be called? Is this just an "ought" remark where you are just stating an opinion and aren't proposing and means to achieve the end? Like when someone says "people ought to have more manner", they clearly aren't implying any means to achieve that end or that it would be useful to try to attain that goal. When it comes to social issues though, it is quite different, and when someone says "people ought not to be racist", they follow it up with means to achieve that end.[/QUOTE] I don't think she is making a logical formal argument - merely sharing her narrative of experience.
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