[QUOTE=DogGunn;23634800]Nope haha.[/QUOTE]
Alright, never mind then.
Generally I agree with you, government does alright, but there are times when they hide too much. Protection laws for whistleblowing of this sort are a good thing, as even though this singular event might be a negative thing, generally whistleblowing of this type is well-meant.
Like I was saying, I don't believe that any of it poses an immediate security concern, or reveals current positions of security forces. So it's not too bad, even if it might do some harm.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;23634763]Maybe you progressed too much for your own good? haha
Maybe you need someone to tell you that the Government is not out to get you or its citizens?[/QUOTE]
Well ours is certainly not out to help us. Nowadays it's all about special interest groups and voting through appalling short term plans that are not feasible in the long run, to garner voter support and gain political standing for career purposes. America has turned into a giant machine whether people like to accept it or not. It's not producing for the greater good of the people, instead it is one giant feedback loop, growing bigger and bigger to support the greedy cogs that keep it churning.
If wikileaks throws out an occasional thing whatever, they shouldn't get punishment. But publishing all this? In my opinion there should be some consequences.
[QUOTE=Sottalytober;23634903]If wikileaks throws out an occasional thing whatever, they shouldn't get punishment. But publishing all this? In my opinion there should be some consequences.[/QUOTE]
Why should they? They didn't post a synthesis guide for VX or anything imminently harmful like that. If you're going to say something like that, at least give a reason other than, "They published a lot of pages."
[QUOTE=DogGunn;23634763]Maybe you need someone to tell you that the Government is not out to get you or its citizens?[/QUOTE]Is that what you think people are worried about? How about the countless incidents in which the government tries to cover up civilian deaths, the fact that no one in the military ever gets held responsible for mistakes or wrongful deaths in the same name of secrecy and security (unless its friendly fire and even then its kind of unpredictable).
Maybe people just give a shit about civilians and innocent people and property owners in other countries than you apparently do.
Not to mention, I don't think our government has any right to lie to us (when they're the ones we trust to hold a public record in the first place), even in the name of security or to keep people calm. Transparency helps expose the lies and liars and I can't see who would have a problem with that.
Honestly, i'm with the US military on this one. Anything that can hurt the US military that is leaked on to the internet for all to see is not good. Do i think it was wrong? Hell yeah it was wrong. People die in war ok? Shit happens! Because these documents were released its going to give muffinhead liberals more room to bitch about the war and about how many innocents we are killing.
[QUOTE=Simpleboo;23634978]Honestly, i'm with the US military on this one. Anything that can hurt the US military that is leaked on to the internet for all to see is not good. Do i think it was wrong? Hell yeah it was wrong. People die in war ok? Shit happens! Because these documents were released its going to give muffinhead liberals more room to bitch about the war and about how many innocents we are killing.[/QUOTE]
Because none of that matters at all to you? We should just keep fighting a war where the only really target we had has more than likely vacated the country? Would you care more if it were American civilians who were dying?
We've caused enough death, there's not much reason to stay other than to make sure the place doesn't collapse when we leave, and we don't need all the troops we have there to do that.
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;23635012]Because none of that matters at all to you? We should just keep fighting a war where the only really target we had has more than likely vacated the country? Would you care more if it were American civilians who were dying?
We've caused enough death, there's not much reason to stay other than to make sure the place doesn't collapse when we leave, and we don't need all the troops we have there to do that.[/QUOTE]
how are civilan casualties relevant to the leaked documents? isn't it about the war effort itself?
besides, if the people were to know, what could they do? whether they know or they don't it's not like they can do anything about it. what is it that makes it better for the people to know? you could say it's for a greater good for the people to know the truth or whatever, but really. it's not like we could do anything about it. you'd say to yourself "oh okay, I feel better to know now" but the next month you'd probably forget about the whole thing
[QUOTE=DogGunn;23634520]You don't have a problem with a Government becoming transparent on their secret weapons?
There are certain things that need to be hidden in order for national safety.[/QUOTE]
Maybe if we didn't make enemies with people we wouldn't have to have so many secrets.
To be honest, yeah this is terrible, but each time wikileaks posts new videos and information all he does is making his own country and its troops look horrible. That's bad for PR, both troop moral and citizen moral. And really, if you thought that in a war you only shoot the enemy and have this super human instinct to define between a gunman and a civilian, you are delusional, especially in places such as Afghanistan.
War has always been terrible, and quite frankly I won't be surprised or shocked to find out even if they were shooting a bunch of children. War makes you insane, war makes you dump almost all of your morals down the toilet. It makes any man a trigger happy madman. Some people do that to avoid the terrible reality of war, that you can get a bullet through your skull any second by an enemy sniper, or how you can't sleep at night fearing you'll get a mortar shell right through your tent.
[QUOTE=Sleepy Head;23635151]how are civilan casualties relevant to the leaked documents? isn't it about the war effort itself?
besides, if the people were to know, what could they do? whether they know or they don't it's not like they can do anything about it. what is it that makes it better for the people to know? you could say it's for a greater good for the people to know the truth or whatever, but really. it's not like we could do anything about it. you'd say to yourself "oh okay, I feel better to know now" but the next month you'd probably forget about the whole thing[/QUOTE]
He brought them up, I was simply respond to this.
With people knowing, this will allow people to know truths, and possibly raise efforts to actually make change. I'm also not certain that every senator or member of congress has had access to these documents, so they may be a wakeup call for them, too. It also provides documentation of official misconduct, and provides a route for charges to be filed that may not have otherwise gone through.
[editline]|||[/editline]
"Those policies are at a critical stage and these documents may very well underscore the stakes and make the calibrations needed to get the policy right more urgent," said Democrat Senator John Kerry.
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10758578[/url]
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;23635479]He brought them up, I was simply respond to this.
With people knowing, this will allow people to know truths, and possibly raise efforts to actually make change. I'm also not certain that every senator or member of congress has had access to these documents, so they may be a wakeup call for them, too. It also provides documentation of official misconduct, and provides a route for charges to be filed that may not have otherwise gone through.
[editline]|||[/editline]
"Those policies are at a critical stage and these documents may very well underscore the stakes and make the calibrations needed to get the policy right more urgent," said Democrat Senator John Kerry.
[URL]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10758578[/URL][/QUOTE]
Okay, my bad on the first part.
But still, we're establishing this debate on the phrase "the people". It's a very loose word, what exactly does this phrase represent? The general public? Senate? The House?
Also, what do you mean by change? You mean that if the general public realizes the truth, perhaps they'll make an effort to contact senate/representatives in order to encourage them to fix the issue? Okay, that I can see. I was just interested in what people are saying that makes it better for us to know the truth, because without any sort of physical action or response I think it makes the whole point of knowing the truth pointless.
[QUOTE=brainmaster;23634093]
[B]What's so bad about that?[/B]
Some of the logs are pretty sensitive and quite frankly, if I were a president, I wouldn't want people to know about how my troops failed to teach the afghan police on how to deal with tense situation, like that time when 2 Afghan police officers killed 2 civilians. Not only is it bad PR, but it strains political ties.
.[/QUOTE]
That's what's good about it, the people have the right to know if their government lets them down or not.
[QUOTE=Simpleboo;23634978]Honestly, i'm with the US military on this one. Anything that can hurt the US military that is leaked on to the internet for all to see is not good. Do i think it was wrong? Hell yeah it was wrong. People die in war ok? Shit happens! Because these documents were released its going to give muffinhead liberals more room to bitch about the war and about how many innocents we are killing.[/QUOTE]
"Muffinhead liberals"
I assume you're a conservative. And with all this support for a big government with big secrets you're not a very [i]good[/i] conservative.
[QUOTE=Sleepy Head;23635622]Okay, my bad on the first part.
But still, we're establishing this debate on the phrase "the people". It's a very loose word, what exactly does this phrase represent? The general public? Senate? The House?
Also, what do you mean by change? You mean that if the general public realizes the truth, perhaps they'll make an effort to contact senate/representatives in order to encourage them to fix the issue? Okay, that I can see. I was just interested in what people are saying that makes it better for us to know the truth, because without any sort of physical action or response I think it makes the whole point of knowing the truth pointless.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that sort of thing, if it's as bad as people are saying, maybe this will be something that actually energizes people to protest again, and actually get out there and do some fucking activism.
The Government works for its citizens, not the other way around. OP's comment that if he was President he wouldn't want these documents leaked because of ensuing bad PR is tough - provided these documents won't endanger the lives of soldiers there's no reason for the public not to know about fuck ups.
It's a bit like the UK expenses scandal - politicians didn't want us to know something but they were wrong to try and hide it.
While i don't think the government should be hiding things like failure to train Afghan, or Iraqi police (although it's got to be tough when you don't know who in your ranks could possibly be planning to defect at a moments notice) i think that certain things should be punishable for leaking.
Things that put troops in danger, or could potentially give the opposing forces an upper hand should definitely be a punishable offense, but things that are after the fact, i feel, should be free game.
If a US Army squad fucked up and leveled a school instead of an enemy stronghold, someone should be held accountable.
I know accidents happen, but sometimes people need to be made responsible for what they do.
I think that aspect of it is good.
American's should know what is actually happening.
Not the brief clips of what CNN, or Fox is willing to tell us in America.
The less the news gets filtered, through hosts and reporters, the more accurately American's can understand the conflict, and decide how to feel on it.
It's only good to let people make up their minds with the real facts, instead of being spoon-fed what someone [i]thinks[/i] should be news.
[editline]03:39AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sickle;23634662]Oh hey guys it's secret our ENEMIES ARE GOING TO FIND IT AND KILL US.
No not really. Not with the 3 trillion wasted on our defense, that's for sure. Not with us being the biggest political influence. Not with us basically being the god of countries.
The public has a right to know the atrocities committed.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between things that are going to happen and things that have happened.
:foxnews: In other news today, Owner of Wisleblowing site Wikileaks have been killed, The CIA says they were not involved and are killing anyone who has ever gone on website... IN REMEMBRANCE! :foxnews:
[QUOTE=newbs;23634714]the state of rational ignorance in which the average american lives in.[/QUOTE]
Kansas? :v:
[QUOTE=Best4bond;23635820]:foxnews: In other news today, Owner of Wisleblowing site Wikileaks have been killed, The CIA says they were not involved and are killing anyone who has ever gone on website... IN REMEMBRANCE! :foxnews:[/QUOTE]
Nah, he died in a car accident :rolleye:
[QUOTE=Splurgy_A;23635853]Kansas? :v:[/QUOTE]
You mean Texas, I assume?
[QUOTE=Craptasket;23634182]People need to know the truth[/QUOTE]
Avatar couldn't possibly fit better.
I half trust them half think they make shit up, just seems fishy that a bunch of nameless guys stumble across 90,000 documents that are totally top secret and leak them out.
[QUOTE=Sift;23636071]I half trust them half think they make shit up, just seems fishy that a bunch of nameless guys stumble across 90,000 documents that are totally top secret and leak them out.[/QUOTE]
Are you stupid?
[editline]10:43AM[/editline]
They get sent them, they're just the messengers.
[editline]10:43AM[/editline]
Sure, they made up 90000 documents just so they could release them to the world, good one.
[QUOTE=Sift;23636071]I half trust them half think they make shit up, just seems fishy that a bunch of nameless guys stumble across 90,000 documents that are totally top secret and leak them out.[/QUOTE]
The documents have been checked by 3 international media houses, The "Guardian" (UK), die "New York Times" (USA) and the Spiegel (DE). All of them said that the documents are real.
Wikileaks is impartial. Whether it was illegal, immoral, bad PR or shocking, information should not be covered up. However, it should be taken like any other source: Always possibly open to bias and misinformation.
I'm making a torrent of it now.
All laws of man be damned, the truth must always be free.
All I care about is how they obtain all their documents.
[QUOTE=brainmaster;23634093]
[B]What's so bad about that?[/B]
Some of the logs are pretty sensitive and quite frankly, if I were a president, I wouldn't want people to know about how my troops failed to teach the afghan police on how to deal with tense situation, like that time when 2 Afghan police officers killed 2 civilians. Not only is it bad PR, but it strains political ties.[/QUOTE]
It would be wrong to hide just because it is a failure.
Cannot always win, that should be understood.
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