• The Sensible Christian: Is it possible?
    565 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24307939]then why are you replying to me. i said, "[b]if you base the concept of someone being sensible, on them being rational,[/b] then no, being a sensible Christian is not possible." [editline]01:40AM[/editline] given that, rational is a synonym for logical, they are believing in something without evidence to support it. this is illogical.[/QUOTE] That makes as much sense as, "If you base an animal on being a tiger, then no, a chicken is not an animal."
[QUOTE=Mudbone;24307898] Like it or not the Westburo baptist church actually preach just whats in the bible, that's what makes it even sicker and funny. I see them as hero's for what they are doing. They are exposing the bible for what it really is. [/QUOTE] Not true. I listened to a bit of one of their "sermons" and all he did was make claims that Bush's advisors were posessed by angels and other non biblical claims. As for your other claims, it is true that you can support any point of view from the bible by cherrypicking verses. However, to treat anyone badly, whether they be homosexual, of another race or religion, or even if they're just being an asshole, is unchristian. Or so Jesus taught.
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24307955]I think that's a bit generalizing. What defines 'real' followers of any religion? Isn't the name for it, simply that- a name? Can't one follow parts of the Bible, as many have admitted (and I would call them Christians if they accept the title) there are parts of the Bible that are to be treated with a grain of salt, and thus still be considered Christians? Is the name not for those who follow the same general beliefs, and from there have their own personal takes and opinions on such?[/QUOTE] So what your saying is Christains should just pick and choose what they like and throw out the rest. What does the bible say about this? All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16Keyword [U]ALL SCRIPTURE[/U] So why have it in a book if it is not meant to be followed? What point does it have? A perfect book must be perfect and have everything it needs and nothing it does not. "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." ([URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa013.html#15"]Isaiah 13:15-16[/URL]) Is this the book you want to base your life on?
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24307970]I think the intentions of human rights ideals and laws are great, they work towards fantastic things, but I'm saying we don't have rights, not that they should be done away with.[/QUOTE]Why would you say we do not have rights?
[QUOTE=Mudbone;24307965]I'm fairly knowledge in the bible, Its history and early church history. However I'm not going to pull one up dig through the pages and type out what I can copy and paste. Instead of you just bashing how about you explain what was wrong with what I said? or can you?[/QUOTE] I'm not even going to bother because you're so childish it's funny. If you really think Christianity preaches racism, you might as well get off and go back to your roleplaying Garry's Mod server.
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24307925]However, that's what this all boils down to. You have faith that there is a God. I guarantee that this has to do with something abstract, not logical. That's the thing, human beings have a knack of turning abstract things into real actions. It's not rational inquiry that led you to believe this, it's a philosophical question. I'm beginning to think that this is what it's all about. You see, with things like abortion and the like, opinions are based on logical thinking and certain facts. The question remains, what need is there to believe in a God? Why did you think I was being some sort of thought Nazi when I was pointing out the flaws? Why selectively believe certain scriptures over the others? When you try to discuss something like this, that's what it really boils down to. It's a pretty deep question, and being accused of being closed minded seems like a straw man for another motive. So really the motive of this thread seems less to me as a "let's discuss our beliefs" and more of a discussion of "why can't you just accept me for my beliefs?" thread. In all honesty, I can. I do it all the time. I know religious people and we get along just fine in mutual acceptance. But when you go "let's discuss" and I do and then you turn around and then suggest I'm closed minded for questioning your beliefs, it's just frustrating and confusing. There's a time and place for simple acceptance, but this isn't one of them. Also, that rant was directed more to the guy calling me names.[/QUOTE] Right, back to the discussion at hand. "What need is there to believe in a God?" However much I may be conforming to textbook psychology studies, I do feel the need to believe that the physical world is not the limit of existence. I hope and dream that the world created by sensory input is not the edge of the universe. I want to enjoy life, and I want to enjoy whatever is or is not waiting after that life ends. Maybe one's decision of faith should be based on whether that individual needs to believe something more?
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;24307996]Good night all, I hope none of your opinions have changed by morning. [editline]12:43AM[/editline] [img]http://www.facepunch.com/image.php?u=259068&dateline=1266814267[/img]:hf:[img]http://www.facepunch.com/image.php?u=126341&dateline=1275786074[/img][/QUOTE] Sleep well, guy who taught me how to quote properly :3:
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24305921]Maybe. Listed below are my views of the world regarding religion. [B]The Purpose of this Thread[/B]: To address both theists, atheists, agnostics and everywhere in between and gather well-reasoned, logical input to better mine and others' views. I'm open to any comment or criticism, so along as it is meant to be helpful or enlightening. [B]1.) Religion =/= Faith[/B] If I had to call myself something, it'd have to be a deist. I believe and have faith that there exists some higher entity that had a hand in the creation of this universe, simply because I feel that it is true, not because a book told me so. The same goes for the divinity of Jesus as my savior. I have read many religious texts, and my gut/instinct/whatever you want to call it screams to me that this is truth. However, I don't condemn others that don't share this belief, and am always open to new evidence that regarding said beliefs. I read the Bible, the Qu'ran and various other religious books as historical documents. However, I don't follow any one faith to the letter set forth in the modern day. [I]I am very distrustful of texts interpreted/translated by humans[/I]. Who's to say a translator or scribe throughout history didn't decide to misconstrue or alter actual divine inspiration for his/her own profit? However, I do agree with certain aspects of certain religions. I like the Ten Commandments, for example. They're sensible, logical and conducive to a stable, peaceful society. [B]2.) All religions worship the same God[/B] One could posit that the need for a deity is/was essential to human nature. Several [I]separate[/I] cradles of civilization emerged early in human history, including Mesopotamia, the African tribes/civilizations, the Aboriginal tribes/civilizations, the Central American civilizations, China, India etc. All of these cradles had one thing in common; they all developed a form of religion that included one or more deities, separately, and presumably, for thousands of years, with [I]no communication between each other[/I]. This could be argued as either divine inspiration or a creation of the human psyche. Since so many civilizations were involved, this is a difficult coincidence to accept for me. [I]But thirty9th, how does one equate religions with multiple deities (e.g. Hinduism) with monotheistic religions (e.g. Christianity)?[/I] This is a region where I break from traditional thought. I believe that polytheistic religions worship [I]different facets or aspects of the same God.[/I] How the human mind chooses to interpret the presence of a deity could have varied from one civilization to the next. [B]3.) My main concerns in life are faith and love[/B] Love is a broad word. It could refer to the feeling a man or woman has towards another man or woman in a romantic sense, or a simply camaraderie and friendship. I believe it is the chief duty of mankind to better the condition of mankind through mutual acceptance and love of others in spite of differences or supposed faults. Love should temper all action, and I believe our earth would be a much better place, would more people realize this. From this, I also posit that free will is very important, if not necessary, to the formation of the best society possible. I agree with philosopher John Locke in the sense that actions are acceptable if they don't interfere with one's life, liberty or property. Militant or violent touting of one's beliefs, I posit, is wrong. If one believes one is correct, one should simply live in that way in the most visible way possible. Lead by example, and if it is truly meant to be, then others will follow. I highly respect Mahatma Gandhi, and he remains to this day one of my greatest inspirations in life. [B]In conclusion[/B], I would like to ask the opinions of Facepunchers and engage in some friendly debate, where possible. If any points are particularly good, I'll add them to the OP. [B]tl;dr I met God in Tibet and he told me that being Christian is the only way to get to Heaven[/B][/QUOTE] A sensible Christian? Kierkegaard. /thread
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;24308029]Why would you say we do not have rights?[/QUOTE] Human rights entails rights were given to humans. If humans give themselves their own rights, it's self-declared, and has no hierarchy of importance or authority. It doesn't mean anything.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24308033]Right, back to the discussion at hand. "What need is there to believe in a God?" However much I may be conforming to textbook psychology studies, I do feel the need to believe that the physical world is not the limit of existence. I hope and dream that the world created by sensory input is not the edge of the universe. I want to enjoy life, and I want to enjoy whatever is or is not waiting after that life ends. Maybe one's decision of faith should be based on whether that individual needs to believe something more?[/QUOTE] This could be true, associated to the fear of death. Maybe for some, they have a 'need' for faith because it means there never truly is a death, just another plane of existence? But that's using the word 'death' as a complete wipe from existence, not the physical death of a person.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308031]I'm not even going to bother because you're so childish it's funny. If you really think Christianity preaches racism, you might as well get off and go back to your roleplaying Garry's Mod server.[/QUOTE] Wouldn't it just be easier if you admitted you cant disprove me and your only using semi witty remarks to make yourself SEEM superior? Anyway I'm done replying to you until you comment on WHY what I say is wrong with evidence.
[QUOTE=Mudbone;24308092]Wouldn't it just be easier if you admitted you cant disprove me and your only using semi witty remarks to make yourself SEEM superior? Anyway I'm done replying to you until you comment on WHY what I say is wrong with evidence.[/QUOTE] lol, Jesus preached racism. Yeah, he hated blacks man, they were trying to steal his holy watermelon. Seriously, grow up. There were a few individuals in here who kept a good serious discussion, and there's folks like you who are just so ignorant, there's no point in correcting you.
[QUOTE=Mudbone;24307898]No it is not possible to be a sensible Christian. Anyone who wheres the title Christain is a raciest, sexist, homophobic asshole, and anyone who denies any of that is not a real christian because they do not follow the bible. I would say less then 1 percent of the population preach the real bible. Like it or not the Westburo baptist church actually preach just whats in the bible, that's what makes it even sicker and funny. I see them as hero's for what they are doing. They are exposing the bible for what it really is. Now a christian will tell you that god was different in the OT but this says different "God is unchangeable. His counsel, nature, motivations, agenda, purpose and character are always the same." [B]Malachi 3:6[/B] I the LORD do not change. So then do you really want to follow a book that preaches things as below? "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. ([URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Sa/1Sa015.html#top"]I Samuel 15:2-3[/URL]) "Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." ([URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Num/Num031.html#16"]Numbers 31:16-18[/URL])[/QUOTE] No one is going to try to prove you wrong because you missed a major point of the thread. I for one am of the disposition that the Bible has been corrupted by man. Please stop trying to seem belligerent, it's quite unbecoming.
[QUOTE=badMedia;24305992]not all religions worship the same god just christianity, islam and judaism[/QUOTE] sikhism as well but were are not crazy As they are.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24308033]Right, back to the discussion at hand. "What need is there to believe in a God?" However much I may be conforming to textbook psychology studies, I do feel the need to believe that the physical world is not the limit of existence. I hope and dream that the world created by sensory input is not the edge of the universe. I want to enjoy life, and I want to enjoy whatever is or is not waiting after that life ends. Maybe one's decision of faith should be based on whether that individual needs to believe something more?[/QUOTE] That's the thing. There's no evidence to support the idea of a God, and even if he did exist, he's obviously apathetic to our existence. We're obviously alone in the world. You're advocating staying in the matrix because it's a happier place to be. So I can't just be comforted by the idea of a God. I believe that people shouldn't purposefully delude themselves just because it's easier living in fantasy. I want to do something, I'm not satisfied by God and I don't understand how anyone could be. I want to find fulfillment in reality. All evidence points to the idea that this is the only life I'm going to have, and I want it to mean something. EDIT: Don't get me wrong. The world is a pretty dark place, but pretending the problem isn't there isn't going to make it go away.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308113]lol, Jesus preached racism. Yeah, he hated blacks man, they were trying to steal his holy watermelon. Seriously, grow up. There were a few individuals in here who kept a good serious discussion, and there's folks like you who are just so ignorant, there's no point in correcting you.[/QUOTE] Don't feed him, man.
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24308146]Don't feed him, man.[/QUOTE] Yeah, my bad.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308031]I'm not even going to bother because you're so childish it's funny. If you really think Christianity preaches racism, you might as well get off and go back to your roleplaying Garry's Mod server.[/QUOTE] ohhh ad hominem arguments... how mature :allears:
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308113]lol, Jesus preached racism. Yeah, he hated blacks man, they were trying to steal his holy watermelon. Seriously, grow up. There were a few individuals in here who kept a good serious discussion, and there's folks like you who are just so ignorant, there's no point in correcting you.[/QUOTE] "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." ([URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd012.html#29"]Exodus 12:29-30[/URL]) So explain to me what the firstborn did to deserve to be killed? Just because they happened to be Egyptian. Sounds raciest to me. Since the bible says god jesus and the holy spirit are one that must been it was part jesus who did it too. Oh lets not forget it was god himself who purposely made the pharaoh's heart harden. What kind of fucking sick and twisted game is he playing? He's like an over sized six year old with real life gi joes.
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24308142]That's the thing. There's no evidence to support the idea of a God, and even if he did exist, he's obviously apathetic to our existence. We're obviously alone in the world. You're advocating staying in the matrix because it's a happier place to be. So I can't just be comforted by the idea of a God. I believe that people shouldn't purposefully delude themselves just because it's easier living in fantasy. I want to do something, I'm not satisfied by God and I don't understand how anyone could be. I want to find fulfillment in reality. All evidence points to the idea that this is the only life I'm going to have, and I want it to mean something. EDIT: Don't get me wrong. The world is a pretty dark place, but pretending the problem isn't there isn't going to make it go away.[/QUOTE] Maybe we are fundamentally different. I can be comforted by the idea of a God, and am on a regular basis. That doesn't mean I don't want to do anything with my life... I want to leave this earth having made a difference for future generations. Have left it a better place than it was. [QUOTE=Mudbone;24308175]"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." ([URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd012.html#29"]Exodus 12:29-30[/URL]) So explain to me what the firstborn did to deserve to be killed? Just because they happened to be Egyptian. Sounds raciest to me. Since the bible says god jesus and the holy spirit are one that must been it was part jesus who did it too. Oh lets not forget it was god himself who purposely made the pharaoh's heart harden. What kind of fucking sick and twisted game is he playing? He's like an over sized six year old with real life gi joes.[/QUOTE] Being Egyptian isn't a race it's a nationality, for one thing. So that dissolves your racist point.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24307939] given that, rational is a synonym for logical, they are believing in something without evidence to support it. this is illogical.[/QUOTE] It is not completely without evidence, however the issue is mainly with the evidence itself. Many christians would view existence itself as proof of God, however, ultimately it leads to what basically amounts the "chicken or the egg" question: what created the universe? If God, what created God? Both resulting answers have the exact same problem. There's also the obvious answer that "the bible is evidence" however this is also rightly questioned. It's basically an old book, what's to prove it wasn't made up? A great deal of study has gone into that subject. I will not attempt to condense it all into one post here, however I can look up articles on the subject if you wish. Really, there's a lot more to this than I can go into in one post, but if you want to debate on the more specific aspects leading to the conclusion that there is a God, I will go into it. In the meantime, I think I'm going to bed.
[QUOTE=Mudbone;24308175]"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." ([URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd012.html#29"]Exodus 12:29-30[/URL]) So explain to me what the firstborn did to deserve to be killed? Just because they happened to be Egyptian. Sounds raciest to me. Since the bible says god jesus and the holy spirit are one that must been it was part jesus who did it too. Oh lets not forget it was god himself who purposely made the pharaoh's heart harden. What kind of fucking sick and twisted game is he playing? He's like an over sized six year old with real life gi joes.[/QUOTE] Hey, wanna disrespect my religion? I don't have a problem ignoring you. Maybe if you read the thread you'd understand one major detail about the Old Testament.
[QUOTE=Mudbone;24308175]"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." ([URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd012.html#29"]Exodus 12:29-30[/URL]) So explain to me what the firstborn did to deserve to be killed? Just because they happened to be Egyptian. Sounds raciest to me. Since the bible says god jesus and the holy spirit are one that must been it was part jesus who did it too. Oh lets not forget it was god himself who purposely made the pharaoh's heart harden. What kind of fucking sick and twisted game is he playing? He's like an over sized six year old with real life gi joes.[/QUOTE] its a metaphor duhhh!
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308207]its a metaphor duhhh![/QUOTE] :iceburn:
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;24308196]It is not completely without evidence, however the issue is mainly with the evidence itself. Many christians would view existence itself as proof of God, however, ultimately it leads to what basically amounts the "chicken or the egg" question: what created the universe? If God, what created God? Both resulting answers have the exact same problem. There's also the obvious answer that "the bible is evidence" however this is also rightly questioned. It's basically an old book, what's to prove it wasn't made up? A great deal of study has gone into that subject. I will not attempt to condense it all into one post here, however I can look up articles on the subject if you wish. Really, there's a lot more to this than I can go into in one post, but if you want to debate on the more specific aspects leading to the conclusion that there is a God, I will go into it. In the meantime, I think I'm going to bed.[/QUOTE] uh, no. the universe came out the big bang. what caused the big bang? we don't fucking know so stop acting like you know because you read it in a book made up at a time when you could convince the average person on the street that the world was flat. [editline]02:01AM[/editline] [QUOTE=amcwatters;24308202]Hey, wanna disrespect my religion? I don't have a problem ignoring you. Maybe if you read the thread you'd understand one major detail about the Old Testament.[/QUOTE] bawww someone insulted me that means i can disregard any argument they made! [editline]02:02AM[/editline] [QUOTE=thirty9th;24308192]Maybe we are fundamentally different. I can be comforted by the idea of a God, and am on a regular basis. That doesn't mean I don't want to do anything with my life... I want to leave this earth having made a difference for future generations. Have left it a better place than it was. [b]Being Egyptian isn't a race it's a nationality, for one thing. So that dissolves your racist point.[/b][/QUOTE] okay this addresses fuck all of his argument. okay so god is nationalist.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308231]uh, no. the universe came out the big bang. what caused the big bang? we don't fucking know so stop acting like you know because you read it in a book made up at a time when you could convince the average person on the street that the world was flat. [editline]02:01AM[/editline] bawww someone insulted me that means i can disregard any argument they made![/QUOTE] Come on Kybalt, he made his point respectfully and politely, and he didn't say he knew. He was pointing out exactly that, I think. That the ideas of origin can be paradoxical. Please don't respond aggressively, that only adds to the probability of a flamewar. Also my back hurts.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308231]uh, no. the universe came out the big bang. what caused the big bang? we don't fucking know so stop acting like you know because you read it in a book made up at a time when you could convince the average person on the street that the world was flat. [editline]02:01AM[/editline] bawww someone insulted me that means i can disregard any argument they made! [editline]02:02AM[/editline] okay this addresses fuck all of his argument. okay so god is nationalist.[/QUOTE] But that's precisely the basis; we don't know. At least as far as I'm concerned.
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24308280]Come on Kybalt, he made his point respectfully and politely, and he didn't say he knew. He was pointing out exactly that, I think. That the ideas of origin can be paradoxical. Please don't respond aggressively, that only adds to the probability of a flamewar. Also my back hurts.[/QUOTE] if you believe in a god that created the universe, then that would imply that you know better then the people who admit that they don't know.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308058]Human rights entails rights were given to humans. If humans give themselves their own rights, it's self-declared, and has no hierarchy of importance or authority. It doesn't mean anything.[/QUOTE]Why should it matter if it's self-declared? Think of it as a mutual agreement on how we should behave towards one another. While it is correct the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights is toothless in the sense that it's not legally binding, the European Convention on Human Rights is binding for all it's member states. In any case, the UDHR has served as the basis for many national constitutions since 1948 and serves as the basis for many international treaties, both of which are enforceable. On it's own it can also be used as a tool to apply diplomatic pressure on countries violating any part of it.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308231]uh, no. the universe came out the big bang. what caused the big bang? we don't fucking know so stop acting like you know because you read it in a book made up at a time when you could convince the average person on the street that the world was flat. [editline]02:01AM[/editline] bawww someone insulted me that means i can disregard any argument they made![/QUOTE] You've got no manners, either. If you understood Exodus, you'd understand that God had wanted his people out of Egypt. Aaron and Moses confront the pharaoh and he refuses to do so, so he brings destruction upon Egypt which only after then does he release the Israelites. The pharaoh brought it upon himself.
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