• The Sensible Christian: Is it possible?
    565 replies, posted
Im a Christan and i don't tell people "OMG NO GAY MARRIAGE!" i support gay marriage and i express my opinion, But i don't try to force it on people.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24308291]But that's precisely the basis; we don't know. At least as far as I'm concerned.[/QUOTE] but we DO know that it came from the big bang.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24308291]But that's precisely the basis; we don't know. At least as far as I'm concerned.[/QUOTE] Nor will we probably ever, at least not in our general lifetimes.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308298]You've got no manners, either. If you understood Exodus, you'd understand that God had wanted his people out of Egypt. Aaron and Moses confront the pharaoh and he refuses to do so, so he brings destruction upon Egypt which only after then does he release the Israelites. [b]The pharaoh brought it upon himself.[/b][/QUOTE] apparently he also brought it on his first born and all of his citizens who had virtually no input on the situation. [editline]02:07AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Azurionas;24308307]Nor will we probably ever, at least not in our general lifetimes.[/QUOTE] dont under estimate science and progress, 50 years ago blacks were still segregated in the USA, and no one had been to the moon.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308303]but we DO know that it came from the big bang.[/QUOTE] Sadly, we don't. We have it theorized based on evidence. This is generally the same as belief in a higher form/deity to non-belief, it's more of a choice than analysis. Until we can go back and observe it, it can't be proven. Also, there's the argument that God created the Big Bang.
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24306304]trinity, you have my respect. It is really sad that this thread is probably gonna be a fight. Hey, I have an idea. Why not everyone post their own personal beliefs? No comments on others on religious respect, because this was posted respectfully and without comtempt for others. But just so show the diverse beliefs of people that cannot be described by simple terms like 'agnostic' 'atheist' 'christian' ect. ect. People are people. They are individual. They don't follow religious beliefs to the letter in every situation. So why not explain your own views?[/QUOTE] I'm a spiritual athiest, I believe in things like angels/demons/ghosts/etc. but not that anything created them, that they are just beings like us.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;24308294]Why should it matter if it's self-declared? Think of it as a mutual agreement on how we should behave towards one another. While it is correct the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights is toothless in the sense that it's not legally binding, the European Convention on Human Rights is binding for all it's member states. In any case, the UDHR has served as the basis for many national constitutions since 1948 and serves as the basis for many international treaties, both of which are enforceable.[/QUOTE] I think the point is really just about what you said - a mutual agreement that we should treat our fellow humans to certain things, but I'm just talking about rights being assigned, they're not rights, it's just a set of agreements based on basic moral judgment. There's not really anything you can do to change my viewpoint on it, in the end, no one can deny humans do not have rights just all the same as I can't prove my God exists by showing you physical details of him or Jesus or something like that.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308317] dont under estimate science and progress, 50 years ago blacks were still segregated in the USA, and no one had been to the moon.[/QUOTE] Oh, I don't. But still, that's one hell of a leap to make, no? Also I don't plan to live past 60, tops.
How can anyone prove it doesn't exist? How can we prove otherwise? If it does exist I've made a mistake. If it doesn't, we have nothing to fight about. Guess we'll just have to wait to find out. I am an agnatheist. I have no idea but I'm sort of aiming toward atheism, I've not been visited by some deity. Religion is just sort of slowing us down.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24308192]Maybe we are fundamentally different. I can be comforted by the idea of a God, and am on a regular basis. That doesn't mean I don't want to do anything with my life... I want to leave this earth having made a difference for future generations. Have left it a better place than it was.[/QUOTE] That's an interesting thought. Are you trying to replace anything with the idea of God? Do you have some emotional vested interest in God existing? I mean, the Christian books are obviously wrong. People's selected belief displays that everyone realizes this on one level or another. It's the teachings and values that people take away from it. That's why I'm sure theistic debates have no bearing in logic, for Atheists or Theists. It's core values and motives, and those are pretty hard to talk about. For anyone. I think you can be moral and just without God. Human beings are thinking beings, we don't need some patriarch to tell us what's right and wrong and hold our hands. And saying that we do is just degrading and short changes us.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;24308294]Why should it matter if it's self-declared? Think of it as a mutual agreement on how we should behave towards one another. While it is correct the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights is toothless in the sense that it's not legally binding, the European Convention on Human Rights is binding for all it's member states. In any case, the UDHR has served as the basis for many national constitutions since 1948 and serves as the basis for many international treaties, both of which are enforceable. On it's own it can also be used as a tool to apply diplomatic pressure on countries violating any part of it.[/QUOTE] i think what he means is that laws and justice are only things we made up, and only things we can enforce. that humans rights dont exist outside of our perception of their existence. although, to me this seems like pointing out the obvious, but i digress.
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24308339]Sadly, we don't. We have it theorized based on evidence. This is generally the same as belief in a higher form/deity to non-belief, it's more of a choice than analysis. Until we can go back and observe it, it can't be proven. Also, there's the argument that God created the Big Bang.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=PeanutTHENINJA;24308351]I'm a spiritual athiest, I believe in things like angels/demons/ghosts/etc. but not that anything created them, that they are just beings like us.[/QUOTE] That they're just.. there? Any ideas on origin, or have they been there forever or what? I kinda like that theory.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308298]You've got no manners, either. If you understood Exodus, you'd understand that God had wanted his people out of Egypt. Aaron and Moses confront the pharaoh and he refuses to do so, so he brings destruction upon Egypt which only after then does he release the Israelites. The pharaoh brought it upon himself.[/QUOTE] 13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. 14 And the LORD said unto [URL="http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/moses.html"]Moses[/URL], Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. What you meant to say was god used his powers to make the pharaoh say no so he could justify his slaughter (oh but hes god he does not need to justify because his ways are higher then ours) So if he wanted them out of Israel he is all powerful He can just pick everything up and move it somewhere else or make them their own new desert to live in. Why not simply do that? Sounds like god gets off on slaughtering people.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308375]i think what he means is that laws and justice are only things we made up, and only things we can enforce. that humans rights dont exist outside of our perception of their existence. although, to me this seems like pointing out the obvious, but i digress.[/QUOTE] No, you're exactly on the dot. [editline]11:12PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Mudbone;24308383]13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. 14 And the LORD said unto [URL="http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/moses.html"]Moses[/URL], Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. What you meant to say was god used his powers to make the pharaoh say no so he could justify his slaughter (oh but hes god he does not need to justify because his ways are higher then ours) So if he wanted them out of Israel he is all powerful He can just pick everything up and move it somewhere else or make them their own new desert to live in. Why not simply do that? Sounds like god gets off on slaughtering people.[/QUOTE] The pharaoh had free will. God didn't control him.
I respect thirty9th for his beliefs and trying to create a peaceful thread revolving around religion, unfortunately it will most likely dive into chaos. Thanks to the "Religious discussion + Internet = Endless flamewar" formula.
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24308339]Sadly, we don't. We have it theorized based on evidence. This is generally the same as belief in a higher form/deity to non-belief, it's more of a choice than analysis. Until we can go back and observe it, it can't be proven. Also, there's the argument that God created the Big Bang.[/QUOTE]It is in [B]no way[/B] the same as a belief in a deity. There is evidence pointing towards the Big Bang being the most likely cause of the Universe's birth. Belief in a deity is just that, a belief.
Additionally, if you want to state it that way, why even bother plotting human existence? God can control everything, so why bother? He gave humans free will.
[QUOTE=TAU!;24308406]I respect thirty9th for his beliefs and trying to create a peaceful thread revolving around religion, unfortunately it will most likely dive into chaos. Thanks to the "Religious discussion + Internet = Endless flamewar" formula.[/QUOTE] We've done well for 8 pages so far. Care to contribute your opinions? The debate is open and welcome to new ideas.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308386]No, you're exactly on the dot. [editline]11:12PM[/editline] The pharaoh had free will. God didn't control him.[/QUOTE] 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. "[U] the LORD[/U] hardened Pharaoh's heart, " no actually it looks like god did control him. Sorry pal.
[QUOTE=TAU!;24308406]I respect thirty9th for his beliefs and trying to create a peaceful thread revolving around religion, unfortunately it will most likely dive into chaos. Thanks to the "Religious discussion + Internet = Endless flamewar" formula.[/QUOTE] You're just making it worse by posting, really.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308360]I think the point is really just about what you said - a mutual agreement that we should treat our fellow humans to certain things, but I'm just talking about rights being assigned, they're not rights, it's just a set of agreements based on basic moral judgment. There's not really anything you can do to change my viewpoint on it, in the end, no one can deny humans do not have rights just all the same as I can't prove my God exists by showing you physical details of him or Jesus or something like that.[/QUOTE]What to you would constitute a right? [QUOTE=Kybalt;24308375]i think what he means is that laws and justice are only things we made up, and only things we can enforce. that humans rights dont exist outside of our perception of their existence. although, to me this seems like pointing out the obvious, but i digress.[/QUOTE]That is indeed pointing out the obvious, the same as saying an idea is not a physically tangible object you can whack someone on the head with.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308436]You're just making it worse by posting, really.[/QUOTE] Not if he gets into the discussion, I said the same thing really.
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24308339]Sadly, we don't. [b]We have it theorized based on evidence. This is generally the same as belief in a higher form/deity to non-belief, it's more of a choice than analysis. Until we can go back and observe it, it can't be proven.[/b] Also, there's the argument that God created the Big Bang.[/QUOTE] oh please don't start the fucking it's just a theory argument. we have mountains of evidence that all clearly point to the big bang. this is no where near the same fucking thing as me saying it was created by a man who lives out of time and space. the distinction between these two should be fucking clear, the first one has testable and independently verifiable evidence, that points to the big bang, while the second, only has my word. alright, you can say god created the big bang, but why the fuck would you. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR THAT. the fucking point here is that people keep filling "god" in to everything they don't know. it's moronic, yes, we don't know WHY there was a big bang. was it god? WE DON'T KNOW, given that there is no evidence in either direction, the default position on this would be that no, it wasn't god. oh and the bolded section is the part that clearly demonstrates you have absolutely no grasp of how the scientific process works.
[QUOTE=Mudbone;24308434]20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. "[U] the LORD[/U] hardened Pharaoh's heart, " no actually it looks like god did control him. Sorry pal.[/QUOTE] No, he didn't. Your intentionally using one version of the Bible to pick at words. All men had and have free will. Nowhere is this violated.
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24308381]That they're just.. there? Any ideas on origin, or have they been there forever or what? I kinda like that [b]hypothesis[/b].[/QUOTE] fixed
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308419]Additionally, if you want to state it that way, why even bother plotting human existence? God can control everything, so why bother? He gave humans free will.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=amcwatters;24308491]No, he didn't. Your intentionally using one version of the Bible to pick at words. All men had and have free will. No where is this violated.[/QUOTE] Free will doesnt exist, dont be arguing thems phrases round here.
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24308381]That they're just.. there? Any ideas on origin, or have they been there forever or what? I kinda like that theory.[/QUOTE] Well, the only reason I beleive in it at all is because there is evidence for it. Not public evidence like "hurr a demon ate a baby" but more like this: [url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=884943[/url] Also it's more of a mutual thing, calling "Omen" a demon might be insulting to him, I was just using Demons/Angels as examples. As for creation, fuck if I know, if I knew what Omen was/came from believe me I'd tell.
there is absolutely no way for god to know everything, and at the same time, for humans to have free will. they are mutually exclusive, just as going to the left, means you cannot go to the right at the same time.
Actually, I want to correct myself, all major distributed versions of the Bible say God made his heart hard: [url]http://bible.cc/exodus/9-12.htm[/url] This is inferred in plain English as, "But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go."
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