[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308491]No, he didn't. Your intentionally using one version of the Bible to pick at words. All men had and have free will. No where is this violated.[/QUOTE]
How can you change "the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart" He admitted himself that he did it. Open and shut case. What more can be said. God says he hardened his heart. How can this be false or a play on words.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308525]Actually, I want to correct myself, all major distributed versions of the Bible say God made his heart hard: [URL]http://bible.cc/exodus/9-12.htm[/URL][/QUOTE]
OK so now where do you stand?
[QUOTE=PeanutTHENINJA;24308505]Well, the only reason I beleive in it at all is because there is evidence for it. Not public evidence like "hurr a demon ate a baby" but more like this:
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=884943[/url][/QUOTE]
see a psychologist. facepunch is not a mental doctor.
[editline]02:22AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mudbone;24308526]How can you change "the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart" He admitted himself that he did it. Open and shut case. What more can be said. God says he hardened his heart. [b]How can this be false or a play on words.[/b]
OK so now where do you stand?[/QUOTE]
its a metaphor. youre not supposed to interpret it literally. :downs:
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308520]there is absolutely no way for god to know everything, and at the same time, for humans to have free will. they are mutually exclusive, just as going to the left, means you cannot go to the right at the same time.[/QUOTE]
Why not? Why can't God know everything and they still have free will?
I find the majority of Christians to be really sensible people. Its only the small majority that give it a bad name. Religion in these times have done more than good really and it teaches good values as long as its not taken out of context.
If God is all powerful, can he create a being MORE powerful than himself?
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308560]Why not? Why can't God know everything and they still have free will?[/QUOTE]
because then god would know what we would be doing before we did it. which means that what we will do next, is predetermined, and only appears as free will to us.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308551]see a psychologist. facepunch is not a mental doctor.[/QUOTE]
Because I posted that thread in Conspiracies and the Paranormal because I wanted a mental doctor :downs:
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308477]oh please don't start the fucking it's just a theory argument. we have mountains of evidence that all clearly point to the big bang. this is no where near the same fucking thing as me saying it was created by a man who lives out of time and space. the distinction between these two should be fucking clear, the first one has testable and independently verifiable evidence, that points to the big bang, while the second, only has my word.
alright, you can say god created the big bang, but why the fuck would you. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR THAT. the fucking point here is that people keep filling "god" in to everything they don't know. it's moronic, yes, we don't know WHY there was a big bang. was it god? WE DON'T KNOW, given that there is no evidence in either direction, the default position on this would be that no, it wasn't god.
oh and the bolded section is the part that clearly demonstrates you have absolutely no grasp of how the scientific process works.[/QUOTE]
I understand what you're saying, although the language is a but unnecessary. I may have worded it a bit wrong. But, you say I have no knowledge of scientific process. Doesn't the scientific method require experimentation to be proven true? So until the LHC can make a 'miniature big bang' successfully and show us, both are hypothesis, and open to argument.
(I'm retarded, like I've said and that's what I thought the LHC was supposed to do. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry but you still get my point.)
Yes, the Big Bang hypothesis is more stacked by evidence, but people have their right to believe. Personally I believe in the Big Bang, and in evolution and am a man with heavy faith in science. However, I respect others ideas and try to see from their point of view why they would argue against things. Is that not in the spirit of this thread?
And thanks for the Fixed. I think you're actually right with that one.
[QUOTE=TheBatman;24308567]If God is all powerful, can he create a being MORE powerful than himself?[/QUOTE]
can god create a stone he cannot move?
the idea of an all powerful being just creates a whole shit ton of paradoxes. seems terribly out of place in a universe that has no paradoxes.
[QUOTE=hehe;24308562]I find the majority of Christians to be really sensible people. Its only the small majority that give it a bad name. Religion in these times have done more than good really and it teaches good values as long as its not taken out of context.[/QUOTE]
We do not need Christianity to teach us good values. If history teaches us anything its that religion enslaves people and causes people to do terrible things in the name of whatever god they chose. I would like to think after all of humanity we could just get together without god and say "ok guys lets not kill each other or steal everyone's shit."
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24308373]That's an interesting thought. Are you trying to replace anything with the idea of God? Do you have some emotional vested interest in God existing?
I mean, the Christian books are obviously wrong. People's selected belief displays that everyone realizes this on one level or another. It's the teachings and values that people take away from it. That's why I'm sure theistic debates have no bearing in logic, for Atheists or Theists. It's core values and motives, and those are pretty hard to talk about. For anyone. I think you can be moral and just without God. Human beings are thinking beings, we don't need some patriarch to tell us what's right and wrong and hold our hands. And saying that we do is just degrading and short changes us.[/QUOTE]
I don't really have any huge gaps in my life, that I can distinguish. My home life was pretty good, in my opinion, I have friends, a goal in life, etc... I suppose my main reason for wanting God is that such a reality would mean happiness or peace for anyone would never have to end. Also, the human mind probably can't perceive what's beyond life without an afterlife besides "black". And that's just depressing. Pondering that in itself would upset me to no end.
Anyways, thank you kindly to all who participated in this debate. If anyone would like to continue, by all means do so. But I am compelled by the sleep god to go hit the hay. I bid you all a good night.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308569]because then god would know what we would be doing before we did it.[/QUOTE]
I believe this entirely, and believe he knows your heart before you commit your actions, but I still feel that we have free will. Pardon me if I just sound ignorant based on the logic of it, but that's just me, I suppose.
[editline]11:28PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mudbone;24308585]We do not need Christianity to teach us good values. If history teaches us anything its that religion enslaves people and causes people to do terrible things in the name of whatever god they chose. I would like to think after all of humanity we could just get together without god and say "ok guys lets not kill each other or steal everyone's shit."[/QUOTE]
lol, you're an optimistic fellow, aren't you?
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24308594]I don't really have any huge gaps in my life, that I can distinguish. My home life was pretty good, in my opinion, I have friends, a goal in life, etc... I suppose my main reason for wanting God is that such a reality would mean happiness or peace for anyone would never have to end. Also, the human mind probably can't perceive what's beyond life without an afterlife besides "black". And that's just depressing. Pondering that in itself would upset me to no end.[/QUOTE]
What's even more depressing is finding out everything you thought was true turned out to be a lie. That's the worse possible thing that can ever happen. Something like this not involving religion happened but I wont go on about it. If anyone really has to know they can pm me or whatever.
Yeah I'm losing sleep on this deal, it was a good time spender, take care everyone, sleep well.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308608]I believe this entirely, and believe he knows your heart before you commit your actions, but I still feel that we have free will. Pardon me if I just sound ignorant based on the logic of it, but that's just me, I suppose.
[editline]11:28PM[/editline]
lol, you're an optimistic fellow, aren't you?[/QUOTE]He is entirely correct in the sense that Christianity is not a necessary condition of morality.
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24308581]I understand what you're saying, although the language is a but unnecessary [b]cry me a river[/b]. I may have worded it a bit wrong. But, you say I have no knowledge of scientific process. Doesn't the scientific method require experimentation to be proven true? So until the LHC can make a 'miniature big bang' successfully and show us, both are hypothesis, and open to argument.
(I'm retarded, like I've said and that's what I thought the LHC was supposed to do. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry but you still get my point.)
Yes, the Big Bang hypothesis is more stacked by evidence, but people have their right to believe. Personally I believe in the Big Bang, and in evolution and am a man with heavy faith in science. However, I respect others ideas and try to see from their point of view why they would argue against things. Is that not in the spirit of this thread?
And thanks for the Fixed. I think you're actually right with that one.[/QUOTE]
the LHC will test for the higgs boson particle, which is predicted to exist by the standard model. it has nothing to do with creating a miniature big bang.
I'd consider my mother to be a sensible Christian (Catholic). She knows what she believes, but doesn't spout out everything she believes to everyone she sees. My father on the other hand is not very sensible. Every fucking conversation you have with him, he brings God into the conversation. you could be talking about cheeseburgers and he'll first turn it into a "damn liberals don't want us eating cheeseburgers" to a "God hates liberals, God is a conservative" conversation. Me and my mother pretty much ignore him.
[QUOTE=Mudbone;24308585]We do not need Christianity to teach us good values. If history teaches us anything its that religion enslaves people and causes people to do terrible things in the name of whatever god they chose. I would like to think after all of humanity we could just get together without god and say "ok guys lets not kill each other or steal everyone's shit."[/QUOTE]
Religions are more of a springboard for teaching good values. Yes you dont need it, but having some kind of story gives people hope.
People take it religions out of context, that's why through history they get a bad name. Still, it shouldn't be ruined for the rest of them who wish to follow it.
The Columbine massacre is an example of people taking atheism/Darwinism out of context.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24308659]the LHC will test for the higgs boson particle, which is predicted to exist by the standard model. it has nothing to do with creating a miniature big bang.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for explaining that. I've a lot to learn.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308608]I believe this entirely, and believe he knows your heart before you commit your actions, but I still feel that we have free will. Pardon me if I just sound ignorant based on the logic of it, but that's just me, I suppose.
[editline]11:28PM[/editline]
[b]lol, you're an optimistic fellow, aren't you?[/b][/QUOTE]
sweden is near half athiestic, and extremely non religious, they seem to be doing fine. you don't need a god, for you to not be a dick and steal and kill people.
as for the first part, "i believe we can choose our actions, but they are already predetermined." makes no sense.
[QUOTE=hehe;24308663]Religions are more of a springboard for teaching good values. Yes you dont need it, but having some kind of story gives people hope.
People take it religions out of context, that's why through history they get a bad name. Still, it shouldn't be ruined for the rest of them who wish to follow it.
The Columbine massacre is an example of people taking atheism/Darwinism out of context.[/QUOTE]Except the Columbine shooters motivation had fuck all to do with atheism or Darwinism, they were simply psychologically screwed up.
[QUOTE=hehe;24308663]Religions are more of a springboard for teaching good values. Yes you dont need it, but having some kind of story gives people hope.
People take it religions out of context, that's why through history they get a bad name. Still, it shouldn't be ruined for the rest of them who wish to follow it.
The Columbine massacre is an example of people taking atheism/Darwinism out of context.[/QUOTE]
This is actually one of my personal beliefs.
Other than the Columbine massacre thing. Those kids were bonkers.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308624]Yeah I ran into someone who actually knew what he was talking about now im backed into a corner and have nothing to say. Going back to stormfront, later. [/QUOTE]
Fixed
ninja'd
[editline]02:35AM[/editline]
my automerge! no!
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24308426]We've done well for 8 pages so far.
Care to contribute your opinions? The debate is open and welcome to new ideas.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24308436]You're just making it worse by posting, really.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24308475]Not if he gets into the discussion, I said the same thing really.[/QUOTE]
My opinion, on religion entirely:
On beliefs, I don't really care what anyone else believes as long as they don't try to force it onto me. I am Agnostic Atheist. I don't believe in "god"(Yahweh/Allah/Jehova/Etc,) gods or prophets. Jesus may have existed, but as a someone who had a mental ailment coincidentally related to God and dying for mankind's "sins." Maybe a god or gods exist, in some strange way (Like, for example, in that episode of Futurama where Bender is a god and then meets god or a god as a galaxy speaking in binary, then in english.) Of course, there would [i]have[/i] to be an explanation on the origin of a god. Arrogant atheists discuss me, as they make us all look like assholes; like how one crazy religious person can make their entire group look insane.
I have friends who are also Atheists (But I fear they are only atheist because of the whole "angsty-teen rebelling against religious parents" formula.) I am an Atheist because I never had any strong feelings towards being a "believer." Both of my parents are Catholic, neither of them fully devoted or the "lordy lordy" type. Up until recently, though, as my mom is now seeking redemption for all of her "sins" (Fucking over my Father, sister and I.) Aside from that, my Father never tried to force religion on me when I was little, so I was very open minded.
I wondered about how we were made. I asked my dad, and he didn't give me much of an answer besides "Your mom gave birth to you." During this time, when my mom was taking me to school I asked her "Who made us?" she told me "God did" and since I always thought 'A creator has to have been created' I asked "Then who made god?" She was silent during the entire walk to school. After that, my mind had been changed forever by a simple thought and question. Again, at this time, I saw many programs by Carl Sagan and others, finding out more about Earth, life on it, and the universe. I wondered what a star really was, since my mom told me they were angels. A ball of light? A big shiny diamond in space? Or another sun like ours? I was never entirely sure until I got older.
Stepping away from personal matters like that, I believe that religious people should be able to discuss their beliefs with one another without conflict (IE: Jews and Muslims, Christians and Catholics, Muslims and Hindus, etc.) I believe that in order for us to progress as a Race we must drop our hatreds for one another (This based around religious, political, and cultural beliefs) and set goals that will benefit all of humanity. Er, since I was little I've been thinking about how other religious people discuss things with one another. When it comes to religion and opinions I try to come to a consensus rather than something one sided. Thinking about the variables, possibilities/probabilities of someone leaning towards yes or no, and so on. I also believe that people can learn about morals/ethics with or without religion, but it all depends on who teaches it to them and how they learn it.
[QUOTE=hehe;24308663][b]Religions are more of a springboard for teaching good values. Yes you dont need it, but having some kind of story gives people hope.[/b]
People take it religions out of context, that's why through history they get a bad name. Still, it shouldn't be ruined for the rest of them who wish to follow it.
The Columbine massacre is an example of people taking atheism/Darwinism out of context.[/QUOTE]
not really. you really don't need it, it really doesn't help anything. the golden rule pretty much explains it pretty well, without the need for angels and demons.
[QUOTE=Mudbone;24308710] [quote=amcwatters]Yeah I ran into someone who actually knew what he was talking about now im backed into a corner and have nothing to say. Going back to stormfront, later.[/quote] Fixed.[/QUOTE]
Dude, it's 12:30 or 1:30 there. Most people would want to sleep.
[QUOTE=hehe;24308663][b]Religions are more of a springboard for teaching good values. Yes you dont need it, but having some kind of story gives people hope.[/b]
People take it religions out of context, that's why through history they get a bad name. Still, it shouldn't be ruined for the rest of them who wish to follow it.
The Columbine massacre is an example of people taking atheism/Darwinism out of context.[/QUOTE]
not really. you really don't need it, it really doesn't help anything. the golden rule pretty much explains it pretty well, without the need for angels and demons.
columbine had nothing to do with religion. get your head out of your ass.
-snip-
[QUOTE=TAU!;24308725]Maybe a god or gods exist, in some strange way (Like, for example, in that episode of Futurama where Bender is a god and then meets god or a god as a galaxy speaking in binary, then in english)[/QUOTE]
Maybe not a god that created us, but a massive intelligence?
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