• The Sensible Christian: Is it possible?
    565 replies, posted
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;24332392]what do you mean?[/QUOTE] Like I said, the watchmaker analogy is debatable at best, and then there's the bible, which while scholars have done a lot of research on it, will always be seen by it's detractors as "some book dumb people wrote a long time ago."
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;24332497]Like I said, the watchmaker analogy is debatable at best, and then there's the bible, which while scholars have done a lot of research on it, will always be seen by it's detractors as "some book dumb people wrote a long time ago."[/QUOTE] well there are many bibles so having a bible i would not put as proof
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;24329112]I don't think I'd go so far as shoving it down other's throats. Also, what scientific facts are christians denying? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is evolution, and really I'm pretty sure that genesis was more of a metaphor than a literal account.[/QUOTE] Jesus defied gravity and shit when he walked on water. Bringing people back to life is also impossible. So is feeding thousands of people with a couple of fish and some bread. [editline]07:13AM[/editline] [QUOTE=thirty9th;24331918]Actually it's quite absurd to claim anything as fact. To say that it's absolutely impossible that new evidence will ever arise to the contrary is quite... illogical.[/QUOTE] It's not illogical. There's a higher probability that gravity turns out to be wrong than evolution. There is a theoretical chance that evolution might be wrong, but in reality there's no doubt.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;24333194]Jesus defied gravity and shit when he walked on water. Bringing people back to life is also impossible. So is feeding thousands of people with a couple of fish and some bread. [editline]07:13AM[/editline] It's not illogical. There's a higher probability that gravity turns out to be wrong than evolution. There is a theoretical chance that evolution might be wrong, but in reality there's no doubt.[/QUOTE] well turning someone back to life i think could be done with the right technology
I like how people are trying to have a proper religion-related discussion here and some twats come along to just try to rip the whole thing down.
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;24331900]I didn't reply last time as it was a rather incoherent post, I had assumed you either didn't understand what I wrote or were a troll. Clearly it was the former. I didn't say the big bang didn't happen, and as the section in the bible on creation is not a literal account, it's not in the book "made up at a time when you could convince the average person on the street that the world was flat." In the midst of this, you've completely missed the point I was trying to make. My point was that in most arguments, christians claim that the very fact that anything exists at all is proof that something created it. Then the other side says "if God didn't need a creator, why does the universe?" Ultimately, they both require something not have a creator. [b]In my philosophy, those two things are the same.[/b] Now if you want to make another post, please take as much time as you need to come up with one that isn't disrespectful to the other people in the discussion, whether they're christian or not. Not to mention they really don't seem that well thought out...[/QUOTE] okay i can see your point, but the fact is that those two aren't the same. there is no evidence that the universe was created, therefore there is no evidence for a creator. arguing this any further would be pointless. [editline]04:42AM[/editline] [QUOTE=thirty9th;24331918]Actually it's quite absurd to claim anything as fact. To say that it's absolutely impossible that new evidence will ever arise to the contrary is quite... illogical.[/QUOTE] okay i dont think you read my post very well because if you did you would have clearly seen that evolution is a fact. in the same way that the law of gravity is a fact. it happens, we can observe it. would you tell me that its absurd to claim the law of gravity as a fact?
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;24321736]alot of us have but there are people that dont have the time to think. just saying they are wrong isnt going to change there minds.[/QUOTE] Don't have time to think? If you believe that there is a universal dictator, twisting and controlling everything in existant should make time to actually question their beliefs. At least seeding the idea of doubt may possibly make them "make time".
If we have a god of any form then he's a shitty sadistic downs god.
[QUOTE=Kingy_who;24334194]If we have a god of any form then he's a shitty sadistic downs god.[/QUOTE] that just means he loves us :downs:
[QUOTE=Kingy_who;24334194]If we have a god of any form then he's a shitty sadistic downs god.[/QUOTE] I'm god. Anyways, I don't see the problem with religion as long as it isn't mixed up with politics; in fact I think religion brings much good to people.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;24333573]well turning someone back to life i think could be done with the right technology[/QUOTE] your bare hands=/=the right technology. [editline]10:50AM[/editline] [QUOTE=MrJazzy;24334845]I'm god. Anyways, I don't see the problem with religion as long as it isn't mixed up with politics; in fact I think religion brings much good to people.[/QUOTE] false hope?
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;24316517]I highly recommend you read the thread, as it's actually quite a good read.[/QUOTE] not interested in theology atm
[QUOTE=DrBreen;24336502]not interested in theology atm[/QUOTE] then why are you in this thread at all
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;24334845]I'm god. Anyways, I don't see the problem with religion as long as it isn't mixed up with politics; in fact I think religion brings much good to people.[/QUOTE] Not always. Ever heard of those morons who think prayer is more effective than medicine?
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24334018]okay i dont think you read my post very well because if you did you would have clearly seen that evolution is a fact. in the same way that the law of gravity is a fact. it happens, we can observe it. would you tell me that its absurd to claim the law of gravity as a fact?[/QUOTE] I would say it's absurd for you to have no doubt in the validity of the law of gravity. It appears to us now as a fact, but who's to say in 50 years we won't have equipment that proves the existence of another force that gravity is merely a part of? It's wrong and un-scientific not to question everything. It was a well-known fact a few hundred years ago that the earth was flat. They could observe the supposed 'flatness' of the horizon. Accepting gravity and other laws as immutable fact simply because they are supposed to be fact sort of defeats the purpose of thinking critically. Also, on a side note, do you trust in your senses? Do you believe everything that you observe is 100% correct and undeniable? Are the human senses infallible and perfect? Is human technology even infallible and perfect?
Why does one side have to be 100% right? I believe in the idea of evolution and the big bang and such, but where did the matter that originally existed come from? I don't personally think it was a giant bearded man in the sky but there was something that for a second made the impossible possible.
Let me pose this question to you. The Sensible Muslim: Is it possible?
[QUOTE=sp00ks;24333194]Jesus defied gravity and shit when he walked on water. Bringing people back to life is also impossible. So is feeding thousands of people with a couple of fish and some bread. [editline]07:13AM[/editline] It's not illogical. There's a higher probability that gravity turns out to be wrong than evolution. There is a theoretical chance that evolution might be wrong, but in reality there's no doubt.[/QUOTE] That's the point; Jesus was able to do those things because he was God in human form.
[QUOTE=trent_roolz;24339222]Why does one side have to be 100% right? I believe in the idea of evolution and the big bang and such, but where did the matter that originally existed come from? I don't personally think it was a giant bearded man in the sky but there was something that for a second made the impossible possible.[/QUOTE] Quantum fluctuations [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo&p=D62809AD452EDB98&playnext=1&index=2[/url] [editline]07:37PM[/editline] [QUOTE=1STrandomman;24343844]That's the point; Jesus was able to do those things because he was God in human form.[/QUOTE] And you have absolutely no evidence to back that up. Faith is the exact opposite of science.
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;24343844]That's the point; Jesus was able to do those things because he was God in human form.[/QUOTE] or it never happened because the bible is not proof. scientology has a bible, so does every other religion. we are able to tell that the christian religion was based on the sun god religion and other religions. so in fact there would be a higher chance that the sun god is real then there would be a christian god.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24338723]I would say it's absurd for you to have no doubt in the validity of the law of gravity. It appears to us now as a fact, but who's to say in 50 years we won't have equipment that proves the existence of another force that gravity is merely a part of? It's wrong and un-scientific not to question everything. It was a well-known fact a few hundred years ago that the earth was flat. They could observe the supposed 'flatness' of the horizon. Accepting gravity and other laws as immutable fact simply because they are supposed to be fact sort of defeats the purpose of thinking critically. Also, on a side note, do you trust in your senses? Do you believe everything that you observe is 100% correct and undeniable? Are the human senses infallible and perfect? Is human technology even infallible and perfect?[/QUOTE] okay i cannot make this any clearer. the law of gravity is simply how we describe gravitation. that x amount of mass will produce y amount of gravitational attraction. this is a constant thing, its not an explanation for WHY it happens, it's an explanation of WHAT happens. are you with me so far? Then, in the same exact way, evolution is a fact. while the exact processes and what not are theories that explain WHY and HOW it happens, the fact of evolution is just that life will change and adapt to it's environment. yes in the 1600s the people who fucking sailed across the seas and had to experience the curvature of the earth for themselves, thought the earth was flat. nope. try again. the greeks had even calculated the roundness of the earth a thousand years before or so. i dont even know what your last question is asking. scientific experimentation is precises, they include what their margin of error is calculated to be and stuff. what do i need to trust my senses for? obviously i do to an extent, but this is also why we have radiometric dating and microscopes, and telescopes, just because our senses arent good enough.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24306135]What, they aren't preachy, whiny, annoying people with an odd fashion sense that occasionally whip people they don't like? [editline]03:56AM[/editline] What, so you respect the sabbath? Graven images should be a criminal offense? Worshiping a God other than the abrahamic one is bad? The ten commandments are a load of shit.[/QUOTE] Well you can think those are but if they didn't exist then people would think it's okay to murder, steal, lie and cheat. And not get into trouble because people would think it's the norm to do those nasty things to one another.
[QUOTE=keatinator;24345499]Well you can think those are but if they didn't exist then people would think it's okay to murder, steal, lie and cheat. And not get into trouble because people would think it's the norm to do those nasty things to one another.[/QUOTE] no. you dont need religion to not be a dick. however, it does help justify being a dick, ie: gay rights, stemcell research.
[QUOTE=keatinator;24345499]Well you can think those are but if they didn't exist then people would think it's okay to murder, steal, lie and cheat. And not get into trouble because people would think it's the norm to do those nasty things to one another.[/QUOTE] no before the 10 commandments no one did any of those things. infact Caveman had the least amount of crime. other non christians also didnt steal. you dont need a bible to know not to be bad. ok i have a village and i dont want to be killed and i dont want my family killed so murder is wrong, i like my things so stealing is wrong as well
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24345555]no. you dont need religion to not be a dick. however, it does help justify being a dick, ie: gay rights, stemcell research.[/QUOTE] I wasn't talking about that stuff though, all I said was that if the commandments weren't made up then people would more likely think it would be okay to kill, lie, cheat and steal etc.
[QUOTE=keatinator;24345697]I wasn't talking about that stuff though, all I said was that if the commandments weren't made up then people would more likely think it would be okay to kill, lie, cheat and steal etc.[/QUOTE] no because they already know its wrong. its not a book that tells people its the environment they are raised in that makes that. you could be a christian and if you have to you would steal.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;24345177]or it never happened because the bible is not proof. scientology has a bible, so does every other religion. we are able to tell that the christian religion was based on the sun god religion and other religions. so in fact there would be a higher chance that the sun god is real then there would be a christian god.[/QUOTE] I will not deny there are similarities between christianity and other religions. That said, you clearly don't have the knowledge of history required to properly form the arguments you're trying to make. I'm not claiming to be an expert here either, but I can tell you that christianity was not based on paganism. [QUOTE=wikipedia]Early Christianity arose as a movement within first century [URL="http://www.facepunch.com/wiki/Judaism"][COLOR=#0645ad]Judaism[/COLOR][/URL], following the teachings of [URL="http://www.facepunch.com/wiki/Jesus_of_Nazareth"][COLOR=#0645ad]Jesus of Nazareth[/COLOR][/URL]. As such, Christianity developed within the matrix of Judaism, relatively independent from pagan religious beliefs and customs.[/QUOTE] As I've said before, it's not the simple fact that there is a collection of teachings that proves it's truth, it's that there are scholars studying the bible, it's origins, and the history involved that shows that if nothing else, a great volume of it is true. In spite of that, it's detractors, whom lack a proper understanding of history, will always see it as a "book of fairytales" without bothering to do any research.
No amount of biblical scholars or historians will ever come close to proving any god in any way. Why do I need to study it in depth to say it's all bullshit? Is the evidence hidden somewhere in the book, and no one ever tells anyone else about it? [editline]09:08PM[/editline] [QUOTE=keatinator;24345697]I wasn't talking about that stuff though, all I said was that if the commandments weren't made up then people would more likely think it would be okay to kill, lie, cheat and steal etc.[/QUOTE] That is nowhere near true. There is a clear evolutionary advantage in not killing and raping everything. Being able to cooperate is an advantageous trait, so it would've survived. No need for divine dictators.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;24346312]No amount of biblical scholars or historians will ever come close to proving any god in any way. Why do I need to study it in depth to say it's all bullshit? Is the evidence hidden somewhere in the book, and no one ever tells anyone else about it?[/QUOTE] Because if you don't study the subjects involved then you have no knowledge of the subject with which to base your arguments. That's like saying, why do I have to study math to say it's stupid?
Me and OP share the same point of view. Believe in a God, but he doesn't control life. It seems like most "atheists" these days are proud of avoiding brainwash or something. It's stupid.
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