• The Sensible Christian: Is it possible?
    565 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24306531]God is an alpha male figure, taking advantage of our natural desire to follow a strong and beneficent leader and our ability to create models of people inside our minds. By using the system we use to empathize with other people we can create our own illusion of a person, God.[/QUOTE] This would explain why virtually all of the gods ever presented possessed human elements, varying from greed and jealousy to mercy and kindness. A real god would probably be so alien to us we wouldn't understand it at all. Hell, it would probably be imperceptible. [QUOTE=Bobv2;24306846]"Leave people to believe whatever they want, that's all there is to it okay?" I have no fucking clue how people can say this. People's beliefs are very important. Knowing what motivates people is very important. [highlight]Your stance on whether we should stone people to death or not is very important.[/highlight] EDIT: And it's very aggravating trying to understand people (E.G. being the open minded person they want me to be) when you hit this wall of shit.[/QUOTE] Basically what this man is saying is that it's not just your actions that matter, it's the reasoning behind them, and that having faith in a set of rules laid down in a book that may or may not be untrue will nonetheless have an effect on your decisions. In other words, people act on their beliefs, and this isn't always for the good of all mankind. Though to be fair, organized religion is only part of the problem here, and it is a problem that will never be completely solved; there will always be some dumbass who thinks it's ok to fuck people over. [QUOTE=superdinoman;24306950]The subconscious processes and gives information to the "main" conscious mind which is technically "you". The you who receives the information is given a select amount of "choices" from the subconscious but the subconscious is what makes the true decision before the main conscious is able to process the data. There really is no choice as all choice is chosen by the subconscious which runs off of past experiences and current stimuli. Thought, consciousness, local awareness, and choice are all illusions generated by a complex problem solver. Also known as monkey see, monkey do.[/QUOTE] So what you're saying is because of the limits placed upon us by our imperfect forms, we can't have access to all the information. We can only access information readily accessible to humans. There is an upper limit to just how much free will we have, and that upper limit will always be related to how much information we are able to gather and process. Damn, I never thought of it that way. That is quite amazing. Also your avatar is familiar.
[QUOTE=kellybear;24307119]If there is a god and he's as amiable a guy as he's described, I'm sure he'd accept a critical thinker over a blind sheep any day[/QUOTE] If God is as he's described in the Bible we are each and every one of us damned to hell.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24307134]If God is as he's described in the Bible we are each and every one of us damned to hell.[/QUOTE] And if there's any hope of anyone ever ending up in heaven, he's not.
[QUOTE=kellybear;24307119]If there is a god and he's as amiable a guy as he's described, I'm sure he'd accept a critical thinker over a blind sheep any day[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure that if God exists I'm going to Hell.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24306931]I don't understand your point. Are you advocating control of beliefs? i.e. people shouldn't be allowed to be a Christian? Or am I misunderstanding you?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=1STrandomman;24306938]The problem is that as long as you're human your view is biased. Of course you think everyone's views need to change, they don't match yours. So who gets to decide who gets to keep their beliefs and who doesn't? Besides, the truth usually isn't that black and white.[/QUOTE] Herping and derping. I would change my opinion in a heartbeat if evidence were to suggest that they were wrong. You see, the difference between me and you is that I've formulated my opinions from taking as much as I can in, and pulling it all together with hours of contemplation. You base yours on a thousand year old book. It kind of sucks to have an outlook on life I've been carefully crafting and updating all of my life toppled by "you're just close minded." It's extremely aggravating and I understand why people want to punch things sometimes when they hear it. It's a load of horse shit, and I can't believe people still accept it as a valid argument. So I contest that [B]you're[/B] the one who's closed minded, and when you think about it, it makes perfect sense. I do nothing but try to understand your side, and when I question it all's I get back is "You're just not opening your eyes, man." I don't get all hissy and defensive when someone's presented me with an interesting, new, solid opinion that compromises mine. It's an opportunity to be enlightened. And this isn't just you. It's all Christians. There's good in most of them, but good doesn't always mean smart. So, yeah. Come up with something better.
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;24307132]This would explain why virtually all of the gods ever presented possessed human elements, varying from greed and jealousy to mercy and kindness. A real god would probably be so alien to us we wouldn't understand it at all. Hell, it would probably be imperceptible. Basically what this man is saying is that it's not just your actions that matter, it's the reasoning behind them, and that having faith in a set of rules laid down in a book that may or may not be untrue will nonetheless have an effect on your decisions. In other words, people act on their beliefs, and this isn't always for the good of all mankind. Though to be fair, organized religion is only part of the problem here, and it is a problem that will never be completely solved; there will always be some dumbass who thinks it's ok to fuck people over. So what you're saying is because of the limits placed upon us by our imperfect forms, we can't have access to all the information. We can only access information readily accessible to humans. There is an upper limit to just how much free will we have, and that upper limit will always be related to how much information we are able to gather and process. Damn, I never thought of it that way. That is quite amazing. Also your avatar is familiar.[/QUOTE] God would be as perceptible to us as the red blood cells coursing through your veins are of you. Interesting thought. Not actual God as commonly believed, but Godlike entity would be collective of humans? Interesting thought.
[QUOTE=kellybear;24307119]If there is a god and he's as amiable a guy as he's described, I'm sure he'd accept a critical thinker over a blind sheep any day[/QUOTE] That's usually how I comfort myself. He'd be proud of me for thinking so hard about this stuff, right?
[QUOTE=kellybear;24307144]And if there's any hope of anyone ever ending up in heaven, he's not.[/QUOTE] I don't know. I can think of a few warlords who would make the cut.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24307134]If God is as he's described in the Bible we are each and every one of us damned to hell.[/QUOTE] lol. How do you think me, being someone who loves to try to devote his time to God (although admittedly I'm awful at doing that to the degree I'd like), sees most of Facepunch users?
[QUOTE=Ender_Wiggin;24307169]That's usually how I comfort myself. He'd be proud of me for thinking so hard about this stuff, right?[/QUOTE] Unless God's a bugger lover.
[QUOTE=kellybear;24307144]And if there's any hope of anyone ever ending up in heaven, he's not.[/QUOTE] Well sins are a fact of life. I mean as long as people repent they are forgiven, right?
[QUOTE=Ender_Wiggin;24307169]That's usually how I comfort myself. He'd be proud of me for thinking so hard about this stuff, right?[/QUOTE] I've a Mormon friend who describes it thus: If God sees that you have put thought into it and arrived at your own conclusion rather than hearing something from another and instantly believing it, and you are genuinely good-hearted and have done good for other people out of selflessness and not desire to earn something material for yourself, he will accept you as his own, knowing that in the end of all things, you have seen the light in meeting him.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24307190]Unless God's a bugger lover.[/QUOTE] :smug:
[QUOTE=Ender_Wiggin;24307169]That's usually how I comfort myself. He'd be proud of me for thinking so hard about this stuff, right?[/QUOTE] No, you'd just go to Hell. But there's no reason to worry about that if Hell doesn't exist, which I don't believe it does. [b]EDIT:[/b] I need to shut my fat fucking meme-avatar mouth
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24307188]lol. How do you think me, being someone who loves to try to devote his time to God (although admittedly I'm awful at doing that to the degree I'd like), sees most of Facepunch users?[/QUOTE] I don't know, and I really don't care. The thoughts of people afraid of their own shadows don't much concern me.
The title is already a huge spit in the face.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24307209]I don't know, and I really don't care. The thoughts of people afraid of their own shadows don't much concern me.[/QUOTE] Sometimes at night while I'm getting water I see my shadow and jump a little
[QUOTE=kellybear;24307090]Free will is more "there" on a level of social interaction. How we walk, how we talk, that sort of thing - that's controlled by our subconscious. But our conscious mind controls how we use the tools the subconscious gives us. [/QUOTE] You act like they are separate entities, both are in the brain operating at the same time, the subconscious is the [I]real[/I] conscious mind that gives all the information to the primary conscious that you would consider to be you. [QUOTE=jjsullivan;24307106]I have been taught about this in one of my drama classes, if you record yourself 10 times picking up an apple or some sort of object, it will be a different way almost every single time. If you think about it more the action will seem more frequent.[/QUOTE] This is because the conscious mind has to interpret information from the subconscious, as the information fires back and forth and takes slightly different paths the brain will replicate the process as best it can. However many other factors add into the body position, thoughts, and amount of force applied to do said actions. [QUOTE=thirty9th;24307130]So you believe that human decision is the product of their environment? Process of empathy, gotcha.[/QUOTE] Its nature through nurture, with the experiences and stimuli combined with it. Thats what makes us who we are. [QUOTE=FlakAttack;24307132] So what you're saying is because of the limits placed upon us by our imperfect forms, we can't have access to all the information. We can only access information readily accessible to humans. There is an upper limit to just how much free will we have, and that upper limit will always be related to how much information we are able to gather and process. Damn, I never thought of it that way. That is quite amazing. Also your avatar is familiar.[/QUOTE] The brain is such an amazing organ. Its good to see someone beginning to grasp the concepts.
[QUOTE=kellybear;24307195]I've a Mormon friend who describes it thus: If God sees that you have put thought into it and arrived at your own conclusion rather than hearing something from another and instantly believing it, and you are genuinely good-hearted and have done good for other people out of selflessness and not desire to earn something material for yourself, he will accept you as his own, knowing that in the end of all things, you have seen the light in meeting him.[/QUOTE] And in my mind God is actually George Carlin who got the job after Douglas Adams used the babel fish to make him vanish in a puff of logic. Unfortunately that has no bearing on anything.
[QUOTE=kellybear;24307195]I've a Mormon friend who describes it thus: If God sees that you have put thought into it and arrived at your own conclusion rather than hearing something from another and instantly believing it, and you are genuinely good-hearted and have done good for other people out of selflessness and not desire to earn something material for yourself, he will accept you as his own, knowing that in the end of all things, you have seen the light in meeting him.[/QUOTE] I guess I'm not so lost after all.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24307130]So you believe that human decision is the product of their environment?[/QUOTE] Interesting that we both came to very similar conclusions. I think the man might be on to something. [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24307167]God would be as perceptible to us as the red blood cells coursing through your veins are of you. Interesting thought. Not actual God as commonly believed, but Godlike entity would be collective of humans? Interesting thought.[/QUOTE] I was going more for us mistaking some universal force (like quantum mechanics) for a god but that is an equally interesting alternative.
I'm a sensible Christian. Do I win anything?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24307209]The thoughts of people afraid of their own shadows don't much concern me.[/QUOTE] I really have no clue where you're getting that one, this time. [QUOTE=Paravin;24307214]The title is already a huge spit in the face.[/QUOTE] Yep.
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24307150]Herping and derping. I would change my opinion in a heartbeat if evidence were to suggest that they were wrong. You see, the difference between me and you is that I've formulated my opinions from taking as much as I can in, and pulling it all together with hours of contemplation. You base yours on a thousand year old book. It kind of sucks to have an outlook on life I've been carefully crafting and updating all of my life toppled by "you're just close minded." It's extremely aggravating and I understand why people want to punch things sometimes when they hear it. It's a load of horse shit, and I can't believe people still accept it as a valid argument. So I contest that [B]you're[/B] the one who's closed minded, and when you think about it, it makes perfect sense. I do nothing but try to understand your side, and when I question it all's I get back is "You're just not opening your eyes, man." I don't get all hissy and defensive when someone's presented me with an interesting, new, solid opinion that compromises mine. It's an opportunity to be enlightened. And this isn't just you. It's all Christians. There's good in most of them, but good doesn't always mean smart. So, yeah. Come up with something better.[/QUOTE] Hissy and defensive? I'm sorry if I came across as any of the adjectives you put forth. I didn't mean to be defensive, I'm gathering information here. Also, I didn't say you were close-minded. I'm trying to understand the point you put forth. Obviously I misunderstood.
[QUOTE=kellybear;24307217]Sometimes at night while I'm getting water I see my shadow and jump a little[/QUOTE] Sometimes I wake up at night and stare in horror at the curtains fluttering in my peripheral vision. But only when I get really fucking whacked out.
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24307150] And this isn't just you. It's all Christians. There's good in most of them, but good doesn't always mean smart.[/QUOTE] It's true that they may have different understandings of life, but most of the time it doesn't mean that they want to kill you of a different viewpoint. It doesn't necessarily mean they have any kind of agenda at all, if you speak to them normally with religion out of the picture a normal christian will speak to you as any other sensible human being would. Now, I do not say this in ignorance of extremists. Whatsoever.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24307230]And in my mind God is actually George Carlin who got the job after Douglas Adams used the babel fish to make him vanish in a puff of logic. Unfortunately that has no bearing on anything.[/QUOTE] That's true, but as Mormons are seen as having some of the strictest interpretations of the Bible, I feel that his opinion and conclusion on the subjects of heaven and hell weighs a little heavier. I dunno, maybe I'm just stupid and trying to participate in a debate for smart people.
[QUOTE=Paravin;24307214]The title is already a huge spit in the face.[/QUOTE] Tongue in cheek, my friend. I meant no offense.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24307254]Sometimes I wake up at night and stare in horror at the curtains fluttering in my peripheral vision. But only when I get really fucking whacked out.[/QUOTE] Sometimes I fantasize about girls' feet, why are we discussing things that happen on occasion
[QUOTE=Ender_Wiggin;24307233]I guess I'm not so lost after all.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but in addition, being agnostic all your life doesn't accomplish anything religiously speaking either.
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