• The Sensible Christian: Is it possible?
    565 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24307447]Then they're going to roast in hell for being good, sensible people.[/QUOTE] I hear this argument so many times it's getting cliche. Your idea of Christianity does not represent the majority.
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;24307475]I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn't trying to say anyone questioning my or anyone else's beliefs is close minded, [B]I'm trying to say that people are entitled to their beliefs[/B]. If they don't want to take the time to make good decisions on the subject that's their choice, but no matter how much time you have it doesn't give you the right to tell others that they can't have their beliefs.[/QUOTE] Yes they are. However, if you start a thread saying "Hey, let's discuss our beliefs" I'm not going to take "Let's just respect each other's beliefs" as an argument.
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[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;24307527]I hear this argument so many times it's getting cliche. Your idea of Christianity does not represent the majority.[/QUOTE] It's not my beliefs. It's cataloged pretty well right there in the bible. EDIT: Mah automerge
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24307528]Yes they are. However, if you start a thread saying "Hey, let's discuss our beliefs" I'm not going to take "Let's just respect each other's beliefs" as an argument.[/QUOTE] Okay, you filthy, slimy, no-good atheist son of a bitch. Yeah, uh, disrespecting each other's beliefs isn't going to work out very well for a DISCUSSION. Maybe a wrestling match.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24307435]And this is where Locke-esque ideals come into play. The scenario you described interferes with one's right to life.[/QUOTE] I'm a Christian, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_life]live in America[/url], but I still don't believe in right to life or human rights. No where are we declared rights in life as much as humanity likes to say we have human rights, which are all self-declared. I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it's stated we have the right to live, as far as I understand in Christianity - it's a privilege. If I'm incorrect or uninformed, I'm fine and grateful if someone can correct me otherwise.
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24307467]People's beliefs have a direct bearing on what they do. EDIT: You don't start a "Let's discuss Christianity" thread and then use the "why can't we all respect each others beliefs" argument.[/QUOTE] Until one's beliefs actually DO manifest in actions, why should you do anything about them? Slippery slope logical fallacy. All it takes is one radical bombing then they all start doing it? Pardon me, but in an amusing coincidence, I'm playing the devil's advocate. [QUOTE=amcwatters;24307556]I'm a Christian, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_life"]live in America[/URL], but I still don't believe in right to life or human rights. No where are we declared rights in life as much as humanity likes to say we have human rights, which are all self-declared. I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it's stated we have the right to live, as far as I understand in Christianity - it's a privilege. If I'm incorrect or uninformed, I'm fine and grateful if someone can correct me otherwise.[/QUOTE] My apologies, I should have said that I wasn't basing that off of any religious text. I realize that one's right to life isn't stated in the Bible beyond the commandment prohibiting murder. I agree with philosopher John Locke in that some rights are inherent and obvious simply because a person is alive. They should have the right to stay alive.
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24307528]Yes they are. However, if you start a thread saying "Hey, let's discuss our beliefs" I'm not going to take "Let's just respect each other's beliefs" as an argument.[/QUOTE] A sensible person also knows when to use their opinions am I right? If I have a friend who's a florist, and I have a burning hate for flowers, do I hold back or say "I FUCKING HATE FLOWERS!" and ruin her shop?
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24307556]I'm a Christian, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_life]live in America[/url], but I still don't believe in right to life or human rights. No where are we declared rights in life as much as humanity likes to say we have human rights, which are all self-declared. I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it's stated we have the right to live, as far as I understand in Christianity - it's a privilege. If I'm incorrect or uninformed, I'm fine and grateful if someone can correct me otherwise.[/QUOTE] It used to be considered a privilege but with the rise of modern Western culture it's definitely (and rightfully) seen as a right.
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[QUOTE=amcwatters;24307556]I'm a Christian, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_life"]live in America[/URL], but I still don't believe in right to life or human rights. No where are we declared rights in life as much as humanity likes to say we have human rights, which are all self-declared. I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it's stated we have the right to live, as far as I understand in Christianity - it's a privilege. If I'm incorrect or uninformed, I'm fine and grateful if someone can correct me otherwise.[/QUOTE] I have to disagree with you on so much of this post. We as a society have the capabilities to provide a good life for the vast majority of people, if not all people around the world. There are clear laws that define human rights and these laws should be respected beyond any others. The bible and many other religious books emphasize life as a gift and it should be cherished, yet they contradict themselves by saying its ok to die in the name of their god as they will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven. The concept of rewards is older than the human species and is a strong force to keep people in line with their religions.
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24307552]It's not my beliefs. It's cataloged pretty well right there in the bible. EDIT: Mah automerge[/QUOTE] Protestants seem to be pretty keen on making their own interpretations of the Bible, or at least not using it as the end all be all for morality.
[QUOTE=kellybear;24307553]Okay, you filthy, slimy, no-good atheist son of a bitch. Yeah, uh, disrespecting each other's beliefs isn't going to work out very well for a DISCUSSION. Maybe a wrestling match.[/QUOTE] You say "Let's discuss our beliefs" and then you say "Let's not discuss our beliefs, let's all just hold hands in harmony." So what is it? I mean, I "respect people's beliefs" all the time. My friends have different beliefs. If they say "hey, let's discuss them" I'm going to discuss them. "Let's not discuss" isn't valid when you're discussing something. you understand? There's a time and a place for just respecting people's opinions.
I propose we rename this thread to "Religion: a Calm and Well-Spoken Debate and Discussion". It's seemed to have done better then most other flamefests on religion.
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24307528]Yes they are. However, if you start a thread saying "Hey, let's discuss our beliefs" I'm not going to take "Let's just respect each other's beliefs" as an argument.[/QUOTE] If it was in response to something specific about christian beliefs I would agree with you. However, what I was initally responding to was some one claiming that beliefs should be controlled.
it depends on what your definition of a christian is most of the time, the sensible Christians just disregard everything written in the bible; so while they may be sensible people, they're not really Christians and are more likely deists
[QUOTE=Bobv2;24307622]You say "Let's discuss our beliefs" and then you say "Let's not discuss our beliefs, let's all just hold hands in harmony." So what is it? I mean, I "respect people's beliefs" all the time. My friends have different beliefs. If they say "hey, let's discuss them" I'm going to discuss them. "Let's not discuss" isn't valid when you're discussing something.[/QUOTE] Are you stupid or just trying to rile us up? I'm not suggesting we all hug and make babies together out of play-doh and legos, but we shouldn't be assholes to each other. The point of discussion is to discuss, not bicker, and being aggressive and rude amounts to bickering. Discussion is civilized. We can respect each other's beliefs while talking about them, it's not that hard if you have any social skills at all.
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[QUOTE=Azurionas;24307628]I propose we rename this thread to "Religion: a Calm and Well-Spoken Debate and Discussion". It's seemed to have done better then most other flamefests on religion.[/QUOTE] Actually most of religious discussions on fp are rather decent, just sometimes people refuse to accept when they are wrong, or to acknowledge faults in their arguments. GMod_Fan77 did this a lot, I haven't seen him in these sorts of arguments recently though, and he seems to be getting more... sensible? I don't know.
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;24307629]If it was in response to something specific about christian beliefs I would agree with you. However, what I was initally responding to was some one claiming that beliefs should be controlled.[/QUOTE] I never meant that. I'm just saying, if you want to discuss something, you'd better be prepared to defend what you have to say. I'm not for discussion turning into fights, but it's kind of aggravating to be accused of advocating thought control and being some sort of thought Nazi when all I'm trying to do is understand. I'm just saying, if you want me to not question your beliefs, don't ask me to question your beliefs.
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;24307666]And just what is wrong with discussing our beliefs while holding hands in harmony?[/QUOTE] when people disagree it tends to get in the way of holding hands in harmony.
[quote=kellybear]Are you stupid or just trying to rile us up? I'm not suggesting we all hug and make babies together out of play-doh and legos, but we shouldn't be assholes to each other. The point of discussion is to discuss, not bicker, and being aggressive and rude amounts to bickering. Discussion is civilized. We can respect each other's beliefs while talking about them, it's not that hard if you have any social skills at all. [/quote] I have a feeling he may be trolling (for lack of a better word, trying to aggrivate just because.) On the other hand this may be his opinion, that should be respected. But not necessarily acknowledged. Bob, what's your opinion on the matter?
[QUOTE=kellybear;24307648] The point of discussion is to discuss, not bicker, and being aggressive and rude amounts to bickering. Discussion is civilized. We can respect each other's beliefs while talking about them, it's not that hard if you have any social skills at all.[/QUOTE] You see though this little snip of your post contains a generalization. You say respect eachothers beliefs. I have a lack of beliefs, which is not a belief in anything. You may hold beliefs but I do not, but just because you consider what I think to be a belief does not make it so. Everything I use in a discussion is supported by evidence which has and is being rigorously tested and confirmed. I do not have a belief in the Scientific Method, I trust the scientific method to get the job done.
[QUOTE=superdinoman;24307603]We as a society have the capabilities to provide a good life for the vast majority of people, if not all people around the world.[/QUOTE] As a society, we still can't do that. [QUOTE=superdinoman;24307603]There are clear laws that define human rights and these laws should be respected beyond any others.[/QUOTE] This is self-declaration, it's the same principle as me walking into a candy shop and saying I have the right to purchase anything in the store, when the business has the right to deny you service. [QUOTE=superdinoman;24307603]The bible and many other religious books emphasize life as a gift and it should be cherished, yet they contradict themselves by saying its ok to die in the name of their god as they will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven.[/QUOTE] This isn't a contradiction, it's the honor bound viewpoint many Americans have with serving the country. [QUOTE=superdinoman;24307603]The concept of rewards is older than the human species[/QUOTE] Technically speaking, no it's not, but the final statement I can agree with.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;24307668]Actually most of religious discussions on fp are rather decent, just sometimes people refuse to accept when they are wrong, or to acknowledge faults in their arguments. GMod_Fan77 did this a lot, I haven't seen him in these sorts of arguments recently though, and he seems to be getting more... sensible? I don't know.[/QUOTE] Probably more frustrated, which wouldn't surprise me. Cause you guys are great at making arguments.
[quote=Kybalt]Actually most of religious discussions on fp are rather decent, just sometimes people refuse to accept when they are wrong, or to acknowledge faults in their arguments. GMod_Fan77 did this a lot, I haven't seen him in these sorts of arguments recently though, and he seems to be getting more... sensible? I don't know.[/quote] I think I remember Dr. Freeman being a source of a lot of trouble. Also, cannot get enough of this damn quote system. It is pretty awesome.
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[QUOTE=Bobv2;24307672]I never meant that. I'm just saying, if you want to discuss something, you'd better be prepared to defend what you have to say. I'm not for discussion turning into fights, but it's kind of aggravating to be accused of advocating thought control and being some sort of thought Nazi when all I'm trying to do is understand. I'm just saying, if you want me to not question your beliefs, don't ask me to question your beliefs.[/QUOTE] I'm asking you, by all means, to question my beliefs. And, for the third time, I apologize for misunderstanding your point, if that's what you're referring to by the 'thought control' part.
[QUOTE=Azurionas;24307628]I propose we rename this thread to "Religion: a Calm and Well-Spoken Debate and Discussion". It's seemed to have done better then most other flamefests on religion.[/QUOTE] This wasn't so bad, I can sort of agree with that, but it's pushing it for me.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24307689] Technically speaking, no it's not, but the final statement I can agree with.[/QUOTE] It is, you can go to any animal and a reward will always be a powerful thing. Why do you think dogs are easy to train?
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