• Necrophilia Should be Morally Permissible
    148 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;34430870]I want to get better at recognising fallacies, and I think this thread is good practice. Appeal to ridicule, you aren't adding anything to the discussion, you're presenting no arguments other than claiming that the OP is a troll and that his arguments are invalid. [url]http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html[/url] Strawman and red herring. He never mentioned a funeral, so you're bringing in other factors that aren't necessarily part of the discussion. [url]http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html[/url] [url]http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html[/url] Poisoning the well/personal attack. That is literally just an insult and it doesn't argue anything at all. [url]http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html[/url] [url]http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html[/url][/QUOTE] I care. I am now going to read about fallacies too.
[QUOTE=Thaard;34431586]No one cares. Also, how is a funeral not linked to dead people? This is a discussion, not a "find the fallacy" thread.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure if this is a fallacy in itself, but I find that pointing out fallacies in discussions is a very useful way to keep track of when people are bullshitting and when they've actually got a point. The funeral bit is irrelevant because nobody ever implied that it should be morally permissible to screw someone's mum at a funeral. Even the wording is used to manipulate and construe the original claims as something they were not. Also known as a red herring. Basically he equated "sex with corpses" to "screwing your dead mum at a funeral". The manipulated version includes other things like, is it okay to have sex at a funeral? And would you like to see someone fuck your mom at a funeral? What if she was dead at the time? It's just a ridiculous scenario that was made up for no reason. In a debate, you should care if people are pulling bullshit out of their asses.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;34432396]Basically he equated "sex with corpses" to "screwing your dead mum at a funeral". The manipulated version includes other things like, is it okay to have sex at a funeral? And would you like to see someone fuck your mom at a funeral? What if she was dead at the time? It's just a ridiculous scenario that was made up for no reason.[/QUOTE] Yeah, whilst I wouldn't be too angered that someone would have sex with my mother's corpse, if they decided to do it at the funural, I would probably say something like "maybe now is not the best time.", because other people would be there and they probably wouldn't take it too well.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;34432396]I'm not sure if this is a fallacy in itself, but I find that pointing out fallacies in discussions is a very useful way to keep track of when people are bullshitting and when they've actually got a point. The funeral bit is irrelevant because nobody ever implied that it should be morally permissible to screw someone's mum at a funeral. Even the wording is used to manipulate and construe the original claims as something they were not. Also known as a red herring. Basically he equated "sex with corpses" to "screwing your dead mum at a funeral". The manipulated version includes other things like, is it okay to have sex at a funeral? And would you like to see someone fuck your mom at a funeral? What if she was dead at the time? It's just a ridiculous scenario that was made up for no reason. In a debate, you should care if people are pulling bullshit out of their asses.[/QUOTE] Not really, since any corpse would be free pickings if necrophilia became legal. Who would stop people from digging up your moms(or any other relative) grave and screwing the shit out of her? The necrophilia-cops? [QUOTE=Patriarch;34432598]Yeah, whilst I wouldn't be too angered that someone would have sex with my mother's corpse, if they decided to do it at the funural, I would probably say something like "maybe now is not the best time.", because other people would be there and they probably wouldn't take it to well.[/QUOTE] Geez, talk about respect for the dead..
[QUOTE=Thaard;34432608]Geez, talk about respect for the dead..[/QUOTE] The dead are dead, and therefore don't require respect.
It isn't necessarily about respecting their bodies, it's about respecting the meaning behind those bodies and their lives. I wouldn't like somebody jizzing on a picture of my mum any more than I'd like somebody fucking her corpse.
[QUOTE=Patriarch;34432650]The dead are dead, and therefore don't require respect.[/QUOTE] Who are you to judge? If I want to pay respect to my parents who have fed and nurtured me from I was a little shit, are you going to refuse me to do it? Go to your parents now, and say that you have no problems with some dude digging them up after they're dead and fucking them in every orifice.
[QUOTE=Thaard;34432691]Who are you to judge? If I want to pay respect to my parents who have fed and nurtured me from I was a little shit, are you going to refuse me to do it? Go to your parents now, and say that you have no problems with some dude digging them up after they're dead and fucking them in every orifice.[/QUOTE] That's memory of them, and I will agree that the memory of people is important, because it's related to how we view them. Going up to a grieving widow and saying "Your husband sucked dick in the bathroom of various bars" would be an awful thing to do, because the person who said it would be trying to deframe the image we have of the dead man with a lie. (I realise that I never specificed that it was a lie, but it was.) But a body is basically an object, or a person who can no longer think or act. People are far too anal when it comes to bodies, especially in terms of "respecting" them, which is really just superstition. I don't care what happens to my body when I die, because it won't really affect the memory people hold of me.
[QUOTE=Patriarch;34432770]That's memory of them, and I will agree that the memory of people is important, because it's related to how we view them. Going up to a grieving widow and saying "Your husband sucked dick in the bathroom of various bars" would be an awful thing to do, because the person who said it would be trying to deframe the image we have of the dead man with a lie. (I realise that I never specificed that it was a lie, but it was.) But a body is basically an object, or a person who can no longer think or act. People are far too anal when it comes to bodies, especially in terms of "respecting" them, which is really just superstition. I don't care what happens to my body when I die, because it won't really affect the memory people hold of me.[/QUOTE] So if someone dug up a relative, had sex with it, filmed and put it up on the internet. You wouldn't have any problem with it?
New excuse for a rape? "I thought she was dead!"
[QUOTE]Who are you to judge? If I want to pay respect to my parents who have fed and nurtured me from I was a little shit, are you going to refuse me to do it?[/QUOTE] Nobody is saying you can't do whatever it is you think it takes to pay respect to your parents. Where the hell did you get the idea that you would not be allowed to respect your parents? [QUOTE="Thaard"]Go to your parents now, and say that you have no problems with some dude digging them up after they're dead and fucking them in every orifice. [/QUOTE] This is also something I notice very often. When people want to mock another person's controversial views, they tell them to go say it to someone who definitely will disapprove. That proves nothing. Unless of course you assume that his parents know all truth, but they don't. [QUOTE=Thaard;34432608]Not really, since any corpse would be free pickings if necrophilia became legal.[/QUOTE] What, so now we're discussing how the law would handle legalizing sex with corpses? There's been no discussion of that so far, but here's another fallacy! [url]http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html[/url] The false dilemma, you're assuming that there are only two options: Either all sex with the dead is illlegal, or you're legally allowed to have sex with all corpses in all situations. There could be a law against digging up people who have been buried. And there could be a law against sex acts at a funeral. In that case, it would just be the regular cops.
[QUOTE=Thaard;34432918]So if someone dug up a relative, had sex with it, filmed and put it up on the internet. You wouldn't have any problem with it?[/QUOTE] Not me personally, but I would ask that they remove it because other familt members may be offended by it. It isn't like being offdended by having your religion insulted, because I can understand why someone would be offended by this.
[QUOTE=Thaard;34432918]So if someone dug up a relative, had sex with it, filmed and put it up on the internet. You wouldn't have any problem with it?[/QUOTE] Also keep in mind that just because something is offensive, doesn't mean that it automatically is also morally wrong and that it should be illegal. I don't think Patriarch is telling the truth if he denies feeling bad about this, but feeling bad about something doesn't mean it is morally wrong. I'm sure there's a lot on the internet that you have a problem with, and there's also a lot that I have a problem with, but that does not mean I think they should be illegal or that they are immoral. And once again you're bringing up a red herring. Filming it and putting it up on the internet is a different discussion.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;34433007] I don't think Patriarch is telling the truth if he denies feeling bad about this, but feeling bad about something doesn't mean it is morally wrong.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't be happy with it completely, but I wouldn't feel anger. I would feel a bit annoyed and disturbed, but nothing more.
Aye, that's what I expected. And I'm sure we all feel that about a huge bunch of things, but we don't label all those things as immoral or illegalize them :/
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;34432947]Nobody is saying you can't do whatever it is you think it takes to pay respect to your parents. Where the hell did you get the idea that you would not be allowed to respect your parents? This is also something I notice very often. When people want to mock another person's controversial views, they tell them to go say it to someone who definitely will disapprove. That proves nothing. Unless of course you assume that his parents know all truth, but they don't. What, so now we're discussing how the law would handle legalizing sex with corpses? There's been no discussion of that so far, but here's another fallacy! [url]http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html[/url] The false dilemma, you're assuming that there are only two options: Either all sex with the dead is illlegal, or you're legally allowed to have sex with all corpses in all situations. There could be a law against digging up people who have been buried. And there could be a law against sex acts at a funeral. In that case, it would just be the regular cops.[/QUOTE] Haha, and cops are not overworked with cases of the "living" already? Do you know how many people die each day? Do you think the police have that kind of resources to not only to uphold the law of the living but also the dead? You don't know how society works do you? Also, please drop the pseudo-intellectual fallacy crap, mr. Refer to links. [QUOTE=Patriarch;34432974]Not me personally, but I would ask that they remove it because other familt members may be offended by it. It isn't like being offdended by having your religion insulted, because I can understand why someone would be offended by this.[/QUOTE] They wouldn't remove it, because it's legal! If they want to insult you, they could just dig up your relative and taunt you.
[QUOTE=Thaard;34433055]They wouldn't remove it, because it's legal! If they want to insult you, they could just dig up your relative and taunt you.[/QUOTE] Yes, I know. I would [i]ask[/i] them to remove it, saying something like "Whilst I'm not offended by this, there would be many members in my family who would be."
[QUOTE=Patriarch;34433078]Yes, I know. I would [i]ask[/i] them to remove it, saying something like "Whilst I'm not offended by this, there would be many members in my family who would be."[/QUOTE] Yes, that's what I'm getting to. It would be impossible to regulate! You can't just stick a note on the grave saying "Don't violate my mothers corpse please". It wouldn't work!
[QUOTE=Mr Kodiak;34425599]For the purposes of this thread, morally permissible will be referred to as the base line, whereas it is not restricted or forbidden in a society to commit the act of necrophilia.[/quote] I'd also like to point this out, paraphilias aren't actions. Even though some definitions on the web says otherwise about necrophilia, a paraphilia is an [I]attraction[/I] towards something. Thus, necrophilia would be [I]"a morbid and esp. erotic attraction toward corpses"[/I]. So talking about [I]"the act of necrophilia"[/I] doesn't make any sense. The act of having sex with a corpse would be the correct way of saying it.
[QUOTE=Thaard;34433096]Yes, that's what I'm getting to. It would be impossible to regulate! You can't just stick a note on the grave saying "Don't violate my mothers corpse please". It wouldn't work![/QUOTE] You're getting too meticulous about this. The original question was "should necrophillia be morally permissible", to which I said yes. You are now imagining a society in which it was made legal. If it was though, I would assume that we as a society would have reached a point where we were okay with it.
[QUOTE=Thaard;34433055]Haha, and cops are not overworked with cases of the "living" already? Do you know how many people die each day? Do you think the police have that kind of resources to not only to uphold the law of the living but also the dead? You don't know how society works do you?[/QUOTE] So you're saying that the law is made so it conveniently ignores things that the cops don't have time for? So basically the law prioritizes things so that there is enough time and resources to do it? So, a lack of enforcement resources is a good reason to have flawed laws? And what do you mean they don't have the resources to uphold the law with the dead? They already do, as necrophilia is illegal. Thus they have to deal with it every time someone does have sex with a corpse. [quote]Also, please drop the pseudo-intellectual fallacy crap, mr. Refer to links.[/quote] Why should I stop mentioning fallacies? A fallacy is [I]"faulty reasoning; misleading or unsound argument"[/I] It's basically an error in reasoning. Why would I stop pointing out errors in reasoning? [QUOTE]They wouldn't remove it, because it's legal! If they want to insult you, they could just dig up your relative and taunt you.[/QUOTE] You're not making a point here, indeed they wouldn't have to remove it, just like other stuff on the internet. He said he would [I]ask[/I] that they would remove it. Refusing to do that would make them assholes. If they want to insult you, they can send you messages that are insulting. That is already legal.
-snip-
[QUOTE=Jonii;34425640]Let's not forget that news story about the woman who was impregnated by a corpse at the morgue, too.[/QUOTE] Holy shit, wow. Source?
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;34433195]So you're saying that the law is made so it conveniently ignores things that the cops don't have time for? So basically the law prioritizes things so that there is enough time and resources to do it? So, a lack of enforcement resources is a good reason to have flawed laws? And what do you mean they don't have the resources to uphold the law with the dead? They already do, as necrophilia is illegal. Thus they have to deal with it every time someone does have sex with a corpse. Why should I stop mentioning fallacies? A fallacy is [I]"faulty reasoning; misleading or unsound argument"[/I] It's basically an error in reasoning. Why would I stop pointing out errors in reasoning? You're not making a point here, indeed they wouldn't have to remove it, just like other stuff on the internet. He said he would [I]ask[/I] that they would remove it. Refusing to do that would make them assholes. If they want to insult you, they can send you messages that are insulting. That is already legal.[/QUOTE] Firstly, I'm saying that the law always prioritizes "bigger" cases, but I'm not saying it's a good thing. Now you're putting words into my mouth(isn't that something you accused me of doing mr fallacy)? If necrophilia was legal/regulated, it would be a minor case in contrast to a murder, rape or worse. It would be down there with petty theft and larceny. Secondly, pointing out fallacies the way you do, doesn't add anything to the discussion. Also, there are many assholes on the internet. Believing they would just take the video down is just too gullible of you. They fucked your dead mother! Insulting with text is not as insulting as a video of someone screwing a dead relative.
[QUOTE=Thaard;34433317]Firstly, I'm saying that the law always prioritizes "bigger" cases, but I'm not saying it's a good thing.[/QUOTE] Alright. Well, I just don't think it'd be a problem. I'm not sure if this is true, but I don't think the problem of necrophilia is that big of a problem in the first place. If people were allowed to do it, just not with buried people and in public places, then it would still give the police [I]less[/I] to deal with. Personally I have no idea, I can't really figure out how a person would go through with it, as most people get buried or cremated. [QUOTE]Now you're putting words into my mouth(isn't that something you accused me of doing mr fallacy)?[/QUOTE] Where do I do this? If you're referring to my first 4 questions, those were [I]questions[/I]. I didn't claim that you think enforcement resources is a good reason to have flawed laws, I [I]asked[/I] you if you thought so. [quote]If necrophilia was legal/regulated, it would be a minor case in contrast to a murder, rape or worse. It would be down there with petty theft and larceny.[/quote] Well, I guess, yeah. Actually, I think that's how it should be treated. I think I see corpses as the property of that dead person's relatives. So stealing and doing whatever to the corpse would actually [I]be[/I] theft and larceny. [quote]Secondly, pointing out fallacies the way you do, doesn't add anything to the discussion.[/quote] But I think that it is useful to point out in debates when faulty reasoning is being used. That's what debating is for, finding the truth. Pointing out fallacies is just a way to cut through the faulty reasoning. [QUOTE]Also, there are many assholes on the internet. Believing they would just take the video down is just too gullible of you. They fucked your dead mother! Insulting with text is not as insulting as a video of someone screwing a dead relative.[/QUOTE] I don't get how you got to this. I don't think legalizing sex with corpses would lead to people digging up your dead relatives, fucking them, filming it, uploading it to the internet, and then using it to insult/taunt you. Wouldn't that just be some kind of harrassment anyways?
ITT sociopaths think that necrophilia is fine to participate in
[QUOTE=Jasun;34433615]ITT sociopaths think that necrophilia is fine to participate in[/QUOTE] How am I a sociopath? All I'm saying that I don't believe that there is anything inherently wrong with someone having sexual intercourse with a body.
[QUOTE=Jasun;34433615]ITT sociopaths think that necrophilia is fine to participate in[/QUOTE] Again you're just throwing insults at the people that don't agree with you. You're not providing any reasons why we're not right, and that's exactly why it's a fallacy. Now you're just drawing a baseless conclusion that everyone who disagrees with you on this subject must be sociopaths. See how that is faulty reasoning? Isn't it [I]obvious[/I] how that sort of logic doesn't work? It's exactly the same as saying [I]"Everyone who doesn't agree with me are stupid"[/I].
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;34433585]Alright. Well, I just don't think it'd be a problem. I'm not sure if this is true, but I don't think the problem of necrophilia is that big of a problem in the first place. If people were allowed to do it, just not with buried people and in public places, then it would still give the police [I]less[/I] to deal with. Personally I have no idea, I can't really figure out how a person would go through with it, as most people get buried or cremated.[/quote] Wait until a loved one dies, and then come back to me. You'll see. I have a father that works as a cop, and all the time they have to put cases on the side/hold, to work on "bigger cases". Don't know how it is elsewhere, but almost everywhere I've seen, cops are underpaid. [quote] Where do I do this? If you're referring to my first 4 questions, those were [I]questions[/I]. I didn't claim that you think enforcement resources is a good reason to have flawed laws, I [I]asked[/I] you if you thought so.[/quote] Well, then I answered it in the last post. [quote] Well, I guess, yeah. Actually, I think that's how it should be treated. I think I see corpses as the property of that dead person's relatives. So stealing and doing whatever to the corpse would actually [I]be[/I] theft and larceny.[/quote] Yea, but for me it would be much worse. If you treasure a piece of jewelry more than the corpse of your loved ones, you should seriously check yourself. [quote] But I think that it is useful to point out in debates when faulty reasoning is being used. That's what debating is for, finding the truth. Pointing out fallacies is just a way to cut through the faulty reasoning. [/quote] You should counter with your own opinions, instead of spouting pre written text from links you've found on a website. Just saying this and that is a fallacy whilst pointing to links, makes you kind of a douche. It would be like me posting words from a thesaurus, just to make it like I'm intellectually superior to you. [quote] I don't get how you got to this. I don't think legalizing sex with corpses would lead to people digging up your dead relatives, fucking them, filming it, uploading it to the internet, and then using it to insult/taunt you. Wouldn't that just be some kind of harrassment anyways?[/QUOTE] Another thing you could consider, is if a famous movie star died, and suddenly scores of graverobbers would dig up the grave and sell the corpse to some highest bidding corpsefucker. The whole thing about legalizing something as taboo as necrophilia isn't as "black & white" as people think it is. [QUOTE=Jasun;34433615]ITT sociopaths think that necrophilia is fine to participate in[/QUOTE] More like disconnected from general society.
[QUOTE=Thaard;34433845]More like disconnected from general society.[/QUOTE] This is right, that is wrong. This is right, that is wrong. Obey, obey, obey.
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