• Praying for change/God's plan
    110 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Hidole555;34418964]I disagree with the idea that prayer has no effect. From my view, when you use prayer as a way of just pouring out what you really want to say, but don't want to say to others, it has the same effect as talking to a doll or stuffed animal. Of course you won't get a direct response, but just you talking and you perceiving that someone that understands you is listening is enough to make anyone feel better.[/QUOTE] This is dangerous though. When you pray, all you're going to hear back is what you think anyway. This creates a dangerous feedback loop where you become locked into whatever you thought when you first prayed.
[QUOTE=Joppari;34419260]No, praying is productive, if you believe in it.[/QUOTE] No it isn't. It's basically saying "God, this problem is out of my hands/I'm to inept to deal with it myself, so I need you to fix it."
[QUOTE=Patriarch;34420851]No it isn't. It's basically saying "God, this problem is out of my hands/I'm to inept to deal with it myself, so I need you to fix it."[/QUOTE] And even then, lo and behold, he won't fix it.
Every second spent praying is a second spent not fixing the problem.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;34421080]Every second spent praying is a second spent not fixing the problem.[/QUOTE] Every second praying is a second of peace of mind from an unfixable problem.
[QUOTE=Ylsid;34347068]As proven, praying for someone to recover from HIV doesn't work (HIV "prayer" doctors anyone?), but medical treatment does. Why people believe praying works when it clearly doesn't is beyond my understanding.[/QUOTE] Then comes the "Oh he didn't truly deserve it/ he didn't ask it with all his faith/ its not god's plan" excuse. That is one of the reasons why I choose to stray away from all that nonsense. Praying for things and answers is as good as staying on the same place doing nothing.
[QUOTE=Rad McCool;34421252]Every second praying is a second of peace of mind from an unfixable problem.[/QUOTE] Bullshit. Even if a problem is unfixable you can still ruminate on how it managed to become unfixable in the first place, or how to prevent people in the future from making those same mistakes.
[QUOTE=st0rmforce;34413074]What if a person praying for something is part of God's plan?[/QUOTE] So God's already planned out for someone to die while begging on their hands and knees for his mercy?
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;34421712]Bullshit. Even if a problem is unfixable you can still ruminate on how it managed to become unfixable in the first place, or how to prevent people in the future from making those same mistakes.[/QUOTE] You don't get my point. People use praying as a solace. It's a comfort. It brings hope to your heart, knowing that no matter how bleak a situation might be, God will always be there. We all have our ways of calming our minds. Most people of our generation like to play video games. Some like to drive. Some like to just have a beer. And some people pray. You're gonna condemn everyone who doesn't help fixing the problems? How much have [I]you[/I] contributed to medical research lately? Praying is just as "pointless" as sitting by a computer.
[QUOTE=Rad McCool;34423220]You don't get my point. People use praying as a solace. It's a comfort. It brings hope to your heart, knowing that no matter how bleak a situation might be, God will always be there. We all have our ways of calming our minds. Most people of our generation like to play video games. Some like to drive. Some like to just have a beer. And some people pray. You're gonna condemn everyone who doesn't help fixing the problems? How much have [I]you[/I] contributed to medical research lately? Praying is just as "pointless" as sitting by a computer.[/QUOTE] No one is claiming that by playing games, drinking, or sitting at a computer that they are having any sort of effect on fixing a problem. On the other hand many people who pray seriously believe that it is actually going to have an effect, like praying for someone's cancer to go away or praying for relief for victims of a natural disaster. If someone is in a tough situation and you want to feel like you're helping, saying you'll pray for them isn't helping with anything, and you should instead do something that is going to have an effect if you actually want to help them. I'm also mainly trying to look at it on theological grounds in this thread, by saying that even if you believe in god, what good is it to ask him to change something? He knows the future and whether or not something bad is going to happen. Why ask him to change something that inevitably must occur in the future? This would break his omniscience, as he would be wrong about his previous vision of the future.
I kind of like the type of thing in that movie The Adjustment Bureau. I think God would want nothing but good. Why a dual-natured world was created, who knows, but it does, and if "God is love," then God is a force of good. If human choice screws something up, God can maybe adjust something to make some good out of it. Honestly, I love speculating on this kind of thing, but I'll never say "this is the answer" because we really don't have any idea of whether "God's will" is a plan or an idea of what should happen.
I am a Christian (and not all others will have the same beliefs as I do) but I believe God has a plan, but we have free will to go in whatever direction we choose. Garden of Eden as an example... God's plan was for Adam and Eve to live with him in the garden forever but they chose to disobey him (free will) and so God faced them with new plans. God has an ultimate and uniform overall plan for people who worship him. The paths they take are different but as a Christian I am obligated to say "but there is only ONE large path and that is through Jesus" What I mean is somebody may touch or help people through music, another through medicine, another through counselling and stuff. but hey, don't take my word for absolute truth. I'm still figuring it out and I am in no way an apologetic.
[QUOTE=Mr. Sun;34425801]I am a Christian (and not all others will have the same beliefs as I do) but I believe God has a plan, but we have free will to go in whatever direction we choose. Garden of Eden as an example... God's plan was for Adam and Eve to live with him in the garden forever but they chose to disobey him (free will) and so God faced them with new plans. God has an ultimate and uniform overall plan for people who worship him. The paths they take are different but as a Christian I am obligated to say "but there is only ONE large path and that is through Jesus" What I mean is somebody may touch or help people through music, another through medicine, another through counselling and stuff. but hey, don't take my word for absolute truth. I'm still figuring it out and I am in no way an apologetic.[/QUOTE] How do we have free will if god knows the future though? (I've posted this several times before on various threads but I'll repost it here because it seems to be appropirate) [quote]God timelessly knows choice "C" that a human would claim to "make freely". If C is in the timeless realm, then it is now-necessary that C. If it is now-necessary that C, then C cannot be otherwise (this is the definition of “necessary”). That is, there are no actual "possibilities" due to predestination. If you cannot do otherwise when you act, you do not act freely (Principle of Alternate Possibilities) Therefore, when you do an act, you will not do it freely.[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will#.22God_is_outside_of_time.22[/url] And wouldn't god also have already known Adam and Eve were going to disobey him and cause the Fall of Man if he knew the future?
[QUOTE=Mr. Sun;34425801]I am a Christian (and not all others will have the same beliefs as I do) but I believe God has a plan, but we have free will to go in whatever direction we choose. Garden of Eden as an example... God's plan was for Adam and Eve to live with him in the garden forever but they chose to disobey him (free will) and so God faced them with new plans. God has an ultimate and uniform overall plan for people who worship him. The paths they take are different but as a Christian I am obligated to say "but there is only ONE large path and that is through Jesus" What I mean is somebody may touch or help people through music, another through medicine, another through counselling and stuff. but hey, don't take my word for absolute truth. I'm still figuring it out and I am in no way an apologetic.[/QUOTE] You know, the pope has said that all religions are a way to God. [QUOTE]And wouldn't god also have already known Adam and Eve were going to disobey him and cause the Fall of Man if he knew the future?[/QUOTE] It's a story written by humans to convey some key messages about their beliefs in God. The ancient Jews pretty much thought if you did what God wanted, you were rewarded with a good life, and if you didn't, you and your offspring suffered bad consequences. Same thing happens here.
[QUOTE=Jonii;34425991]You know, the pope has said that all religions are a way to God.[/quote] That sounds nice and everything but pretty much every religion contradicts each other, meaning they obviously all can't be correct. Even his own religion does teach that "no one goes to the father except through [Jesus]", and that an eternity of torture awaits those who don't agree, so I'm afraid that unless that quote from the pope is out of context, he is just talking out of his ass. [quote]It's a story written by humans to convey some key messages about their beliefs in God. The ancient Jews pretty much thought if you did what God wanted, you were rewarded with a good life, and if you didn't, you and your offspring suffered bad consequences. Same thing happens here.[/QUOTE] Sure, that's what I was getting at, that it's just a story written by humans. I was mainly bringing that up to address a literal interpretation of Genesis (which many people do still somehow believe).
[QUOTE=Noble;34426094]That sounds nice and everything but pretty much every religion contradicts each other, meaning they obviously all can't be correct. Even his own religion does teach that "no one goes to the father except through [Jesus]", and that an eternity of torture awaits those who don't agree, so I'm afraid that unless that quote from the pope is out of context, he is just talking out of his ass.[/quote] Well, I personally was taught to take any type of scripture in a contextual sense, like with the Adam and Eve myth thing. The gospels were written by a human being or groups of human beings and then four of the many, many gospels were chosen by the Church to be the four Evangelical Gospels we all know of. I think the "no one goes to the Father" is from... John, I think? John is [i]filled[/i] with symbols and words that try to get across things about Jesus' teachings. For instance, the three wise men in the Christmas story represent gentiles from across the globe to signify that Jesus came for the sake of everyone. So basically, Jesus' main teachings were "God is like an all loving father, not a punisher, so love everyone, jew or gentile, unconditionally, and if they wrong you, you can always forgive them for anything." So I take "no one goes to the Father except through me" as "no one goes to God except through love." As long as you love other people, I think God would accept you. Otherwise you get that cartoon clip where the guy at heaven's gate says "Oooooh, so close. Sorry, the correct religion was actually [whatever]."
[QUOTE=Jonii;34425991]You know, the pope has said that all religions are a way to God. It's a story written by humans to convey some key messages about their beliefs in God. The ancient Jews pretty much thought if you did what God wanted, you were rewarded with a good life, and if you didn't, you and your offspring suffered bad consequences. Same thing happens here.[/QUOTE] What the pope says does NOT apply to all Christian beliefs. Its not like hes absolutely right just because he dedicates his life to his religion the same way a pastor isn't instantly enlightened as soon as he takes the job. The bible says there is only one way into heaven and that is through Jesus Christ. I am confused why you say he thinks all religions are a way to God because it clearly says that isn't true in the NT. Unless... the Pope says the bible isn't true in which case WHY IS HE THE POPE? [QUOTE=Jonii;34426330]Well, I personally was taught to take any type of scripture in a contextual sense, like with the Adam and Eve myth thing. The gospels were written by a human being or groups of human beings and then four of the many, many gospels were chosen by the Church to be the four Evangelical Gospels we all know of. I think the "no one goes to the Father" is from... John, I think? John is [i]filled[/i] with symbols and words that try to get across things about Jesus' teachings. For instance, the three wise men in the Christmas story represent gentiles from across the globe to signify that Jesus came for the sake of everyone. So basically, Jesus' main teachings were "God is like an all loving father, not a punisher, so love everyone, jew or gentile, unconditionally, and if they wrong you, you can always forgive them for anything." So I take "no one goes to the Father except through me" as "no one goes to God except through love." As long as you love other people, I think God would accept you. Otherwise you get that cartoon clip where the guy at heaven's gate says "Oooooh, so close. Sorry, the correct religion was actually [whatever]."[/QUOTE] Your theology sounds a lot like Rob Bell's. This whole very controversial theology of yours is widely opposed. I would love to take the time to explain to you how God's judgement in a way is love but that sparks so many side topics and everything that it's best left to a pastor or somebody else with actual solid knowledge and practice with the subject. And you brought up the topic of symbolism used by Jesus... oh man, yeah. that is a whole new kind of thread... and a 4 hour explanation later. Basically, all the different views of when symbolism is used is why we have such different beliefs among Christians and so many denominations. So I get what you mean and respect that and will let you believe what you want since I don't think this subject is necessary to our own salvation.
[QUOTE=Mr. Sun;34426345]What the pope says does NOT apply to all Christian beliefs. Its not like hes absolutely right just because he dedicates his life to his religion the same way a pastor isn't instantly enlightened as soon as he takes the job. The bible says there is only one way into heaven and that is through Jesus Christ. I am confused why you say he thinks all religions are a way to God because it clearly says that isn't true in the NT.[/QUOTE] The very fact that it's religion doesn't mean it's absolutely wrong, either. Religions try to interpret the movements of our lives, world, and universe while giving a guideline as to how to live your life as a good person. Most of them boil down to "Be the absolute best person that you can be, and if you really need reasons to do that, here's what we think they are." The pope is also Catholic, so of course his words don't spread to every Christian belief. But even every Catholic is going to have a different interpretation of everything than another Catholic. The pope's just someone to keep structure and guide our thinking. His job is to think about these things and represent the Roman Catholic Church to the rest of the world. I think it's good that he's maintaining that spiritual growth in any form can be a way to God.
[QUOTE=Jonii;34426421]The very fact that it's religion doesn't mean it's absolutely wrong, either. Religions try to interpret the movements of our lives, world, and universe while giving a guideline as to how to live your life as a good person. Most of them boil down to "Be the absolute best person that you can be, and if you really need reasons to do that, here's what we think they are." The pope is also Catholic, so of course his words don't spread to every Christian belief. But even every Catholic is going to have a different interpretation of everything than another Catholic. The pope's just someone to keep structure and guide our thinking. His job is to think about these things and represent the Roman Catholic Church to the rest of the world. I think it's good that he's maintaining that spiritual growth in any form can be a way to God.[/QUOTE] Yeah I agree with you. Religion isn't inherently bad (like it is depicted in that Spoken Word video that went viral) but it does do a LOT for helping along the "good fight of faith" ya know? Definitely guidelines and those are good regardless of the situation. I agree that it gives order and structure to the church.
[QUOTE=Noble;34425961]How do we have free will if god knows the future though? (I've posted this several times before on various threads but I'll repost it here because it seems to be appropirate) [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will#.22God_is_outside_of_time.22[/url] And wouldn't god also have already known Adam and Eve were going to disobey him and cause the Fall of Man if he knew the future?[/QUOTE] God works on a higher plane than us. He doesn't have to make sense to [I]our[/I] primitive logic rules. Expand your mind!
[QUOTE=Rad McCool;34428815]God works on a higher plane than us. He doesn't have to make sense to [I]our[/I] primitive logic rules. Expand your mind![/QUOTE] God sounds like a massive twat. If he ever expects to empathise with him, then he needs to speak our language. He's God; I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard for him to do.
[QUOTE=Rad McCool;34428815]God works on a higher plane than us. He doesn't have to make sense to [I]our[/I] primitive logic rules. Expand your mind![/QUOTE] If God is outside of logic then we can't use logic to prove his existence either. That claim would therefore invalidate the work of all those theologians who have tried to prove god using logic and reason, and would leave us with no justification to believe in god outside of revelation (the bible). That brings up further issues because there are thousands of religions that all claim to be true, and at that point you can't use logical arguments to show why your god is any more reasonable to believe in than the rest. So it is unlikely that any theologian is going to agree with the claim that god is outside of logic. Here is an analogy from a site: [quote]There is a new kind of computer virus called SnurfelzXXX. Someone says that SnurfelzXXX is so unlike any other computer virus that it could not have been made on any computer that follows any of the rules of computation. They say that it must have been written on some unknown type of machine that works in a way that is somehow beyond anything we can know about computation so that none of the rules we use apply. They also say that it must have been written in a programming language called C++ as this is the only logical choice for someone who wants to write this sort of virus. This claim does not make any sense. I know that some computer programmers will be sceptical about the idea that a particular language would be needed to write a given virus, but that is not the point. The claim's insistence that a computer can exist that is 'beyond anything we can know about computation' is probably incoherent, but let us look beyond that and pretend that it is not a problem. A more difficult problem is the claim's assertion that the C++ language would be needed to write the virus. Really? According to whose rules? The rules of normal computation? We have just been told that that the computer on which this was all done is beyond those rules![/quote] [url]http://www.paul-almond.com/AgainstTheIdeaThatGodIsSuperiorToLogic.htm[/url] - you should give the whole page a read if you have time. It thoroughly addresses the "god is superior to logic" claim.
[QUOTE=Noble;34344107]This is a debate about prayer and not the existence of god or whether or not it's a fairy tale. Is praying for something to change contrary to God's will? For example, if a Christian prays for their relative's cancer to go away, are they really just asking God to change his mind about his plan? When I hear about someone praying it makes me wonder, do they really think God responds to prayer by thinking: "Gee, I was planning on letting them die slowly from a disease, but now that you mention it... I think I'll miraculously cure them"? And on top of that, how is it even logically possible for God to change his mind about his plan? Since God is supposed to be omniscient (all knowing), that means he knows the past, present, and future. For him to change his mind as a result of your prayers, that would mean he was wrong about his earlier vision of what would happen in the future (which contradicts his ability to know everything). So my question is, is there a point to praying for God to change something, even from a religious view that assumes God exists?[/QUOTE] You can't define god's abilities. He could be all knowing only in regards to cupcakes for all we know. So prayer could do anything from absolutely nothing to convincing him that he made a mistake; which then compels him to change it. It also possibly annoys him to the point where he kills another person, there's literally no way to know.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34420874]And even then, lo and behold, he won't fix it.[/QUOTE] Depends what you pray for
[QUOTE=ice445;34429759]You can't define god's abilities. He could be all knowing only in regards to cupcakes for all we know. So prayer could do anything from absolutely nothing to convincing him that he made a mistake; which then compels him to change it. It also possibly annoys him to the point where he kills another person, there's literally no way to know.[/QUOTE] If we're talking about the god of the Bible, then sure we can define his abilities. It says [url="http://churchlayman.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/god-is-omniscient-he-sees-and-knows-everything/"]all over the scriptures[/url] that God literally knows everything about everything. Are we in agreement that god, if he exists, created space and time in the Big Bang? If this is the case, that means God obviously had to have existed outside of time and space in order to create time and space. Given that God would be outside of space and time, he wouldn't observe time and events the way we do. Time is just a concept we have within the universe that is relative to the observer. If god exists outside of this universe (as he created it, he would have to), then time doesn't apply to him. He would see all events, past, present, and future, all simultaneously. This would include, for example, foreknowledge of children dying of disease despite their family praying for God to save them. It would be a logical contradiction for God to change his mind about something because that would break his omniscience. Here is a logical formulation for why God is unable to change his mind/have free will: [quote] Yesterday God infallibly believed T. (Supposition of infallible foreknowledge as a subset of omniscience) If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. (Principle of the Necessity of the Past) It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. (1, 2) Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. (Definition of “infallibility”) If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. (Transfer of Necessity Principle) So it is now-necessary that T. (3, 4, 5) If it is now-necessary that T, then God cannot do otherwise. (Definition of “necessary”) Therefore, God cannot do otherwise. (6, 7) If God cannot do otherwise when God does an act, God does not act freely. (Principle of Alternate Possibilities) Therefore, when God does an act, God will not do it freely. (8, 9) Therefore, an omniscient god cannot have free will. (1, 10)[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will#General_proof[/url]
The whole argument of "It worked, God wanted it. It didn't work, God wanted it" is stupid. No matter what happens they will always just say it's what God wanted, which means it is an unfalsifiable and unquantifiable statement. No matter what happens, people see it as evidance. If you asked a Christian or any other religous person if Superman or Batman or any other sort of fictional Character existed, they would say no. If you asked them if there is a possibility they could exist, they would also say no. God could create a Batman or a Superman or whatever, so they have to believe it is possible. They cannot say that God would not do that as they do not know what God wants. God already knew what Adam & Eve would do before they did, and what Lucifer would do when her rebelled, but he didn't stop it. He knew that it wasn't their fault, but still punished them. He already knows his own choices before he does them. What God does is already planned out for him, so he has no free will - and neither would anyone if God existed and is how people say he is (Omniscient, Omnipotent etc) Praying would be useless, as everything would already be planned out by God. He knows everything that ever will happen, so he already knows what you will do before you do it - which either means everything is part of God's plan or it doesn't matter if he has a Plan as he already knows it won't work.
[QUOTE=Rad McCool;34428815]God works on a higher plane than us. He doesn't have to make sense to [I]our[/I] primitive logic rules. Expand your mind![/QUOTE] how convenient [editline]28th January 2012[/editline] besides I can just say "god doesn't exist because of higher-order logic, which us mere mortals cannot begin to comprehend" cuts both ways
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;34437013] besides I can just say "god doesn't exist because of higher-order logic, which us mere mortals cannot begin to comprehend" cuts both ways[/QUOTE] I'm just saying that you can't disprove, nor prove, God's existence. And certainly not by using simple logic. It's like trying to prove/disprove string theory using classical physics. You won't get anywhere since you are thinking and reasoning in a way that's fundamentally wrong related to the problem.
[QUOTE=Rad McCool;34437252]I'm just saying that you can't disprove, nor prove, God's existence. And certainly not by using simple logic. It's like trying to prove/disprove string theory using classical physics. You won't get anywhere since you are thinking and reasoning in a way that's fundamentally wrong related to the problem.[/QUOTE] Sure you can disprove his existence. A triangle that has four angles can't possibly exist. In a similar way, neither can an all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing god co-exist with evil.
[QUOTE=Noble;34435248]If we're talking about the god of the Bible, then sure we can define his abilities. It says [url="http://churchlayman.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/god-is-omniscient-he-sees-and-knows-everything/"]all over the scriptures[/url] that God literally knows everything about everything. Are we in agreement that god, if he exists, created space and time in the Big Bang? If this is the case, that means God obviously had to have existed outside of time and space in order to create time and space. Given that God would be outside of space and time, he wouldn't observe time and events the way we do. Time is just a concept we have within the universe that is relative to the observer. If god exists outside of this universe (as he created it, he would have to), then time doesn't apply to him. He would see all events, past, present, and future, all simultaneously. This would include, for example, foreknowledge of children dying of disease despite their family praying for God to save them. It would be a logical contradiction for God to change his mind about something because that would break his omniscience. Here is a logical formulation for why God is unable to change his mind/have free will: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will#General_proof[/url][/QUOTE] I'm not talking about the God presented by the Bible. And how does God have to exist outside of space? Before time sure, but for all we know space has always been here and he just created everything in it. Also, the rest of your argument hinges on the idea that god created all of the matter and particles to interact with each other on a set path. Not necessarily true. He may not know about everything that happens in the future.
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