• Praying for change/God's plan
    110 replies, posted
I once prayed for change... Got 20 pennies. No, but seriously... Praying is nothing other than making yourself feel better, and thinking that everything will get better... I learned it the hard way.
[QUOTE=ice445;34437565]I'm not talking about the God presented by the Bible. And how does God have to exist outside of space? Before time sure, but for all we know space has always been here and he just created everything in it. Also, the rest of your argument hinges on the idea that god created all of the matter and particles to interact with each other on a set path. Not necessarily true. He may not know about everything that happens in the future.[/QUOTE] Well can you define what "God" is then if not the God of the bible? Otherwise we're going to have a hard time getting this discussion to go anywhere without defining what we're discussing. Also there was no time before space, and no space before time. Space and time are connected (spacetime), they are not two separate things. And according to modern cosmology, spacetime came into existence at the moment of the big bang.
[QUOTE=Noble;34437457]A triangle that has four angles can't possibly exist.[/QUOTE] If we play by our rules only, then no. But why should we assume that we know the whole truth. A triangle with four angles [I]can[/I] exist if we for example allow more space dimensions than just 3. Or if we lived in a two-dimensional world, a tetrahedron would look like a triangle from a certain angle. Since we would have no understanding of more dimensions than 2, we would just assume that it was a triangle. But when we look at this shape in three dimensions, it becomes apparent that it has more angles than just 3. [img]http://www.coolmath4kids.com/polyhedra/images/polyhedra-tetrahedron.gif[/img] My point is, that we have no reason to assume that we understand the universe fully. Who knows what things might be possible, and what the truth really looks like, if we unfold all the mysteries of the universe.
[QUOTE=Rad McCool;34437989]If we play by our rules only, then no. But why should we assume that we know the whole truth. A triangle with four angles [I]can[/I] exist if we for example allow more space dimensions than just 3. Or if we lived in a two-dimensional world, a tetrahedron would look like a triangle from any direction. Since we would have no understanding of more dimensions than 2, we would just assume that it was a triangle. But when we look at this shape in three dimensions, it becomes apparent that it has more angles than just 3. [img]http://www.coolmath4kids.com/polyhedra/images/polyhedra-tetrahedron.gif[/img] My point is, that we have no reason to assume that we understand the universe fully. Who knows what things might be possible, and what the truth really looks like, if we unfold all the mysteries of the universe.[/QUOTE] I don't think anyone is arguing that we understand the universe fully or that we know "the whole truth". Also I'm not really following your example. It still doesn't change the fact that a triangle with 4 angles still would not (and logically could not) exist. It would just mean that the person living in the 2d world mistook something to be a triangle that actually wasn't a triangle.
[QUOTE=Noble;34438111]I don't think anyone is arguing that we understand the universe fully or that we know "the whole truth".[/QUOTE] So you admit that while praying and at the same time accepting a divine plan is contradicting to us, it doesn't have to be to a higher deity? [QUOTE=Noble;34438111]It would just mean that the person living in the 2d world mistook something to be a triangle that actually wasn't a triangle.[/QUOTE] But to him it [I]was[/I] a triangle. To him the third dimension doesn't exist. He can't comprehend or even imagine the true shape of the triangle. In the same way we might not be able to comprehend a 7 sided cube. But that doesn't mean that it can't exist. Anyway, it's just an example of how deceiving our minds can be when it comes to "perfectly clear and logical" matters.
[QUOTE=Rad McCool;34438308]So you admit that while praying and at the same time accepting a divine plan is contradicting to us, it doesn't have to be to a higher deity?[/quote] So in other words, god isn't limited to human logic? I thought that's something I addressed in one of my earlier posts... [quote]But to him it [I]was[/I] a triangle. To him the third dimension doesn't exist. He can't comprehend or even imagine the true shape of the triangle. In the same way we might not be able to comprehend a 7 sided cube. But that doesn't mean that it can't exist. Anyway, it's just an example of how deceiving our minds can be when it comes to "perfectly clear and logical" matters.[/QUOTE] Yes I do see where you're going with this. But you're talking about the person's interpretation of what their senses are telling them. I'm saying think of the pure idea of the triangle... objectively. Three sides, three angles. If there were more, it wouldn't be a triangle (since a triangle is defined as: "a polygon with three sides and three angles".) Your examples still haven't demonstrated that the existence of a four sided (or four angled) triangle is logically possible, they're just a reminder that the human senses aren't always accurate. The fact that human senses aren't always accurate isn't grounds to make the conclusion that a four-sided triangle (or anything else that is logically impossible) could possibly exist.
Yeaa you're probably right.
I think the implications of God having a plan for everyone would be far greater than just the effectiveness of prayer. If everything was predecided it would make things like laws, the justice system, prisons, and courts all immoral since the criminal would have had no say in his actions and you would essentially be punishing an innocent because of circumstance. As for the specific question on the OP, prayer would only work if it was God's plan for you to pray. But if you prayed, it would be because God planned you to. Additionally, it would only work if God planned for it to.
[QUOTE=Noble;34437929]Well can you define what "God" is then if not the God of the bible? Otherwise we're going to have a hard time getting this discussion to go anywhere without defining what we're discussing. Also there was no time before space, and no space before time. Space and time are connected (spacetime), they are not two separate things. And according to modern cosmology, spacetime came into existence at the moment of the big bang.[/QUOTE] Time is simply energy at the end of the day, and as far as I'm concerned, you can have a bunch of space without energy and matter. Also I'm defining god as the one who created everything or at least started the ball rolling with regards to the universe.
Freewill vs Determinism. Non-calvinistic Christianity vs Calvinistic. Personally, being a non-calvinist Christian (I don't believe that God has declared every single thing that will ever happen, including who he saves and doesn't), I believe in some aspects of mankind having a free will. I do believe that God knows all of the future, His outcome or plan or whatever you will. But I believe that the plan is this - fallen mankind will only be redeemed through Jesus Christ. Whether or not God has a plan for what kind of car you drive, I doubt it. I do believe he is interested in it though. Not in a "You better pick the right car or else you'll crash", but in a personal, friendly way, because He declares himself to be our friend. Often Christians don't go to God in prayer because they think their problems are trivial. But if God is a God of infinite resources and power (and I believe He is), then no problem/prayer is insignificant for Him. As for why all prayers don't get answered, it might be lack of faith (ie, asking without really believing God can provide it), it might be that God knows best, I don't know, and if Christians are HONEST with you, they will tell you the same. "We don't know". But rarely will you get that answer - you'll get "oh, there is sin in your life so God can't heal you or provide this for you or whatever". Really? I am a human, when am I ever sinless? Or you'll get a bunch of reasons that you have no control over. I also think that God does answer prayers in ways we often don't realise. Knowing the future, He can see what we need when we can't. And the Bible makes mention of Him giving us His Spirit, which cries out our needs to Him in "words that cannot be uttered" ,not talking about tongues or whatever, since obviously they are uttered - mostly gibberish IMO, but a prayer from the inner being. In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. - Romans 8:26 A lot of stuff on prayer is Old Covenant law based teaching - do good, get good, do bad, get beat. In other words, you had to be good enough to earn the blessing and favour of God (to some extent). Whereas in the New Covenant, the blessings and favor of God is because of the work of Jesus Christ, not based in any part on our goodness - so blessing and favor flows freely He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? - Romans 8:32 And this, I believe, is the secret to radical, real Christianity. Abandon all laws and tradition. Stop trying to be good, to be moral, to keep the "10 commandments" or "9 commandments" or anything else (there is no real distinction in Exodus between the 10 and the entire 613 commandments of the law. Christians love to make one though). If God can freely give us all things, He can freely give us righteousness, new desires, the ability to love, without our effort. Oh wait - the Bible says that too - For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age - Titus 2:11-12 So Christians who think "We need the 10 commandments in school, or courthouses", are really mislead. We don't need the 10 commandments. We need grace - love - peace. The law doesn't teach those things - it does what a law does - condemns. Which is, and I am sorry, why so many of my brothers and sisters are full of condemnation - because their entire faith is built around law, not love.
[QUOTE=ice445;34439550]Time is simply energy at the end of the day, and as far as I'm concerned, you can have a bunch of space without energy and matter. Also I'm defining god as the one who created everything or at least started the ball rolling with regards to the universe.[/QUOTE] Energy is defined as the "ability a physical system has to do work on other physical systems." Time is defined as: "A nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future." Neither space nor time existed until the moment of the big bang, they both came into existence simultaneously as "space-time". Therefore if god is responsible for starting the ball rolling by creating the singularity that rapidly expanded into our universe at the moment of the big bang, he had to have been acting from some domain is that is outside of space and time. If he is outside of time and space, and is all-knowing (omniscient), it therefore seems nonsensical to think that god is in any way "limited" by time. Also here is a picture that might make the connection between time and space more understandable [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/yihpP.png[/IMG] Time and space are interconnected, they cannot exist separately from one another.
[QUOTE=Noble;34446650]If he is outside of time and space, and is all-knowing (omniscient), it therefore seems nonsensical to think that god is in any way "limited" by time.[/QUOTE] Alright we're at the same page here!
There is no evidence that praying works. As for a puppet master's plan, it seems contradictory to have future events set in stone, yet allow people to go around with free will. That's like going back in time to dinosaurs and going 'hey, don't fuck shit up by stepping on the common ancestor of an ant'.
[QUOTE=Jookia;34447947]There is no evidence that praying works. As for a puppet master's plan, it seems contradictory to have future events set in stone, yet allow people to go around with free will. That's like going back in time to dinosaurs and going 'hey, don't fuck shit up by stepping on the common ancestor of an ant'.[/QUOTE] Praying isn't even about evidence
I've heard some argue that it's more supposed to change [i]you[/i] and not God. And for the scientific minded, if praying has a positive impact on a person (leaving considerations as to the cause of this impact on the shelf for a bit) you [i]can[/i] argue for the good of praying. Quite convincingly, too.
[QUOTE=Noble;34446650]Energy is defined as the "ability a physical system has to do work on other physical systems." Time is defined as: "A nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future." Neither space nor time existed until the moment of the big bang, they both came into existence simultaneously as "space-time". Therefore if god is responsible for starting the ball rolling by creating the singularity that rapidly expanded into our universe at the moment of the big bang, he had to have been acting from some domain is that is outside of space and time. If he is outside of time and space, and is all-knowing (omniscient), it therefore seems nonsensical to think that god is in any way "limited" by time. Also here is a picture that might make the connection between time and space more understandable [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/yihpP.png[/IMG] Time and space are interconnected, they cannot exist separately from one another.[/QUOTE] Stop using definitions, god, as well as space AND time are all abstract concepts that cannot be 100% defined. You're telling me the generally accepted idea that space and time is connected, which is great. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. What I was trying to say before was that "time" as we understand it wouldn't be possible without the energy and matter contained in space (which are in many ways the same thing). Space is a entity that is potentially unlimited and something that exists outside of our realm of understanding, aka our space is not THE space. Our space is simply the one that contains energy and matter (at least as far as we know). Basically, the observer arrow on the plane of space in that nice diagram doesn't necessarily have to be there. Also, I'm aware this is kind of debate cheese, as my point hinges around the fact that nothing can be proved, but still.
[QUOTE=Joppari;34450093]Praying isn't even about evidence[/QUOTE] Want a hat for your strawman? [editline]30th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=ice445;34452729]Stop using definitions, god, as well as space AND time are all abstract concepts that cannot be 100% defined. You're telling me the generally accepted idea that space and time is connected, which is great. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. What I was trying to say before was that "time" as we understand it wouldn't be possible without the energy and matter contained in space (which are in many ways the same thing). Space is a entity that is potentially unlimited and something that exists outside of our realm of understanding, aka our space is not THE space. Our space is simply the one that contains energy and matter (at least as far as we know).[/QUOTE] Science can define space and time based on observable results and patterns. God can't. Stop trying to pin the god hypothesis up with other evidence-based laws.
[QUOTE=Jookia;34452878]Want a hat for your strawman? [editline]30th January 2012[/editline] Science can define space and time based on observable results and patterns. God can't. Stop trying to pin the god hypothesis up with other evidence-based laws.[/QUOTE] The evidence is shaky at best. Quantum mechanics breaks traditional physics laws, so how can we possibly know what exists outside of the observable "space" aka universe that we live in?
[QUOTE=ice445;34453439]The evidence is shaky at best. Quantum mechanics breaks traditional physics laws, so how can we possibly know what exists outside of the observable "space" aka universe that we live in?[/QUOTE] I don't know much about quantum mechanics, but I do know that it's been used by some religious and spiritual organizations to push their agendas. As for the rest of your argument, it's invalid. There's zero evidence suggesting that there's an outside of the universe, yet your argument assumes it.
[QUOTE=ice445;34452729]Stop using definitions, god, as well as space AND time are all abstract concepts that cannot be 100% defined. [/quote] Well I don't feel that is true at all. We already have definitions for time and space, and we can define god, as for example "a timeless, immaterial creator of the universe". If we're not defining what we're talking about then we're not going to be able to have a real discussion. [quote]You're telling me the generally accepted idea that space and time is connected, which is great. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's true.[/quote] It actually is verified by about a century of scientific research, it is as close to a proven fact as we can get in science. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_special_relativity[/url] [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvZfx7iwq94&feature=related[/url] - perhaps a more simple explanation of space and time being connected [quote]What I was trying to say before was that "time" as we understand it wouldn't be possible without the energy and matter contained in space (which are in many ways the same thing). Space is a entity that is potentially unlimited and something that exists outside of our realm of understanding, aka our space is not THE space. Our space is simply the one that contains energy and matter (at least as far as we know).[/quote] I wouldn't really call it an "entity" (definition of entity: "something that has a real existence; thing: corporeal entities"). It doesn't exist as some kind of physical substance... more like something along the lines of "the blank area in which matter exists" Here is the dictionary definition of "space": "The infinite extension of the three-dimensional region in which all matter exists." So if space is defined as the region in which all matter exists, there can't be "another space" in which matter does not exist. [quote]Basically, the observer arrow on the plane of space in that nice diagram doesn't necessarily have to be there. [/quote] And what would be the difference between existence and non-existence of a universe with no observer?
[QUOTE=Jookia;34453746]I don't know much about quantum mechanics, but I do know that it's been used by some religious and spiritual organizations to push their agendas. As for the rest of your argument, it's invalid. There's zero evidence suggesting that there's an outside of the universe, yet your argument assumes it.[/QUOTE] My argument assumes a possibility, not a definitive existence. And I simply used quantum mechanics as an example to prove a point. We can only gather so much evidence about these sorts of things as of now and the evidence we have gathered is by no means 100% definitive. Also noble, definitely not trying to say that I'm smarter than every physicist ever, but you have to assume there's a possibility they could have all of it or just a small part of it completely wrong. Also, things can exist without someone there to observe it (this is a philosophical thing more than anything). I know it's a crap argument from a debate perspective and is drifting into philosophical territory, but still.
[QUOTE=ice445;34454753]My argument assumes a possibility, not a definitive existence. And I simply used quantum mechanics as an example to prove a point. We can only gather so much evidence about these sorts of things as of now and the evidence we have gathered is by no means 100% definitive. Also noble, definitely not trying to say that I'm smarter than every physicist ever, but you have to assume there's a possibility they could have all of it or just a small part of it completely wrong. Also, things can exist without someone there to observe it (this is a philosophical thing more than anything). I know it's a crap argument from a debate perspective and is drifting into philosophical territory, but still.[/QUOTE] Logic is about not making unfounded assumptions. So stop using it as part of an argument and wasting everybody's time.
[QUOTE=Jookia;34455140]Logic is about not making unfounded assumptions. So stop using it as part of an argument and wasting everybody's time.[/QUOTE] Unfounded assumptions. Right. Because obviously science is never wrong.
Guys, this is a debate about whether God has a plan vs praying changing things, isn't it?
[QUOTE=ice445;34456868]Unfounded assumptions. Right. Because obviously science is never wrong.[/QUOTE] Science being wrong doesn't justify your unfounded assumptions.
[QUOTE=ice445;34456868]Unfounded assumptions. Right. Because obviously science is never wrong.[/QUOTE] Science allows itself to be improved and tweaked as new evidence is discovered. Assuming things based on evidence is not unfounded. Of course nothing is 100% provable or disprovable, but that doesn't mean we should consider every little possibility when there's no evidence to back it up.
[QUOTE=Jookia;34458633]Science being wrong doesn't justify your unfounded assumptions.[/QUOTE] The only "unfounded" assumption I made was that physicists have the potential to be wrong. I'm not saying it's likely, or even that they are, just that it's possible. But anyway, as that other guy said, thread is off track to some degree. From now on I'll just agree that God existed outside of the space-time intersection that we inhabit, so this doesn't continue to drift into hardcore philosophy.
[QUOTE=Bean Shoot;34458733]Science allows itself to be improved and tweaked as new evidence is discovered. Assuming things based on evidence is not unfounded. Of course [b]nothing is 100% provable or disprovable[/b], but that doesn't mean we should consider every little possibility when there's no evidence to back it up.[/QUOTE] I actually have to disagree with this part I highlighted. You can actually prove claims such as "there are no prime numbers whose square root is a rational number" (to use the example from Iron Chariots) or prove that there are no 4-sided triangles (the discussion I was having with Rad McCool on the previous page). Though I agree with your points about science otherwise. [QUOTE=ice445;34459715]The only "unfounded" assumption I made was that physicists have the potential to be wrong. I'm not saying it's likely, or even that they are, just that it's possible. But anyway, as that other guy said, thread is off track to some degree. From now on I'll just agree that God existed outside of the space-time intersection that we inhabit, so this doesn't continue to drift into hardcore philosophy.[/QUOTE] I think that Einstein's relativity has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt at this point, with about a century of scientific research. Many people seem to think that time or space can exist independently of each other and I think that's something we need to clarify in order to proceed with this discussion. I feel it is relevant to the topic because we would have to understand that god would necessarily have to work outside of time and space in order to create it. So god, being outside of time (and space), would possess foreknowledge of every event before it occurs. So if you want to say that someone praying was part of god's plan, you would have to explain why some truly devoted people pray and receive absolutely no help, living and dying in extreme agony and suffering. And from that point, more questions are raised such as how exactly god is supposed to be "the good guy" for not intervening in a world he created, in which free will (correct me if I'm wrong) can't logically co-exist with his omniscience.
From a certain standpoint, we can follow with the reasoning that every prayer is an unanswered prayer. As good is all powerfull and all knowing, he must know of everything that would lead to the existance of the prayer in the first place and has an option to step in before the prayer actually happens.
[QUOTE=ice445;34459715]The only "unfounded" assumption I made was that physicists have the potential to be wrong. I'm not saying it's likely, or even that they are, just that it's possible. But anyway, as that other guy said, thread is off track to some degree. From now on I'll just agree that God existed outside of the space-time intersection that we inhabit, so this doesn't continue to drift into hardcore philosophy.[/QUOTE] You could be wrong too. In fact you're more likely to be wrong than people who have PhDs and having been researching this topic for years. I think it's 100% safe to say that you are wrong.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.