• Praying for change/God's plan
    110 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Rad McCool;34437252]I'm just saying that you can't disprove, nor prove, God's existence. And certainly not by using simple logic.[/QUOTE] lol where did you hear that think about it for a minute, would you ever independently come up with that idea yourself [editline]30th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Surma;34451557]And for the scientific minded, if praying has a positive impact on a person (leaving considerations as to the cause of this impact on the shelf for a bit) you [i]can[/i] argue for the good of praying. Quite convincingly, too.[/QUOTE] actually no you can't praying for hospital patients statistically produces a slight [I]negative[/I] effect on health
Put some effort in something then pray it goes according to plan. Lazy bums dont get help,only hard working people do.
[QUOTE=ice445;34453439]Quantum mechanics breaks traditional physics laws, so how can we possibly know what exists outside of the observable "space" aka universe that we live in?[/QUOTE] that has nothing to do with quantum mechanics at all you're talking out of your ass
[QUOTE=Levithan;34358050]If god is real, he's a big jerk.[/QUOTE] I disagree, when there is a gun to your head, u will be down on your knees praying. Ever listened to an athiest die and convert because he saw something? He gave an ignorrant and stubborn person their life back for a second chance. I was athiest once. Trust me, there was something personal going on, and there was no way in going back, I got on my knees and prayed. If he was a jerk,I wouldn't be on this computer to thixs day. Now imma youth pastor's partner.
[QUOTE=tanner117;34464775]Ever listened to an athiest die and convert because he saw something?[/QUOTE] nope [editline]30th January 2012[/editline] I'd love to hear your examples, I'm pretty sure they're complete fabrications if they're about famous atheists.
[QUOTE=tanner117;34464775]I disagree, when there is a gun to your head, u will be down on your knees praying.[/quote] No I won't. I'll be either running or struggling to get the gun out of the person's hands. Stopping to pray to an invisible man in the sky is just... not the most intelligent thing to do in that situation. [quote]Ever listened to an athiest die and convert because he saw something? He gave an ignorrant and stubborn person their life back for a second chance.[/quote] I actually haven't. Not even once. Also personally I'd say I'm far from ignorant and stubborn, I'm just waiting to see any empirical evidence for the existence of god, but for me to continue in that direction would be going too far off topic. [quote]I was athiest once. Trust me, there was something personal going on, and there was no way in going back, I got on my knees and prayed. If he was a jerk,I wouldn't be on this computer to thixs day. Now imma youth pastor's partner.[/quote] I'm trying to figure out exactly what you're saying happened. If you're talking about an experience of "seeing" god, how do you know this wasn't a hallucination though?
[QUOTE=Noble;34465322]No I won't. I'll be either running or struggling to get the gun out of the person's hands. Stopping to pray to an invisible man in the sky is just... not the most intelligent thing to do in that situation. I actually haven't. Not even once. Also personally I'd say I'm far from ignorant and stubborn, I'm just waiting to see any empirical evidence for the existence of god, but for me to continue in that direction would be going too far off topic. I'm trying to figure out exactly what you're saying happened. If you're talking about an experience of "seeing" god, how do you know this wasn't a hallucination though?[/QUOTE] Trust me, you will know man.
[QUOTE=tanner117;34469867]Trust me, you will know man.[/QUOTE] Well its funny you say that because I've been a devoted Christian for most of my life and only comparatively recently ceased to believe in God for several reasons (a few: problem of evil, lack of any evidence at all for the existence of God, scientific answers about the natural world replacing "god did it" answers, etc). But I'm not going to go on too much about the existence of god because it's a separate topic
[QUOTE=tanner117;34469867]Trust me, you will know man.[/QUOTE] Trust me, he won't. It's been 4 thousand years, I'm going to go off on a limb and say god doesn't exist. If they did, they'd of provided scientific proof.
[QUOTE=Noble;34461836]I actually have to disagree with this part I highlighted. You can actually prove claims such as "there are no prime numbers whose square root is a rational number" (to use the example from Iron Chariots) or prove that there are no 4-sided triangles (the discussion I was having with Rad McCool on the previous page). Though I agree with your points about science otherwise. I think that Einstein's relativity has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt at this point, with about a century of scientific research. Many people seem to think that time or space can exist independently of each other and I think that's something we need to clarify in order to proceed with this discussion. I feel it is relevant to the topic because we would have to understand that god would necessarily have to work outside of time and space in order to create it. So god, being outside of time (and space), would possess foreknowledge of every event before it occurs. So if you want to say that someone praying was part of god's plan, you would have to explain why some truly devoted people pray and receive absolutely no help, living and dying in extreme agony and suffering. And from that point, more questions are raised such as how exactly god is supposed to be "the good guy" for not intervening in a world he created, in which free will (correct me if I'm wrong) can't logically co-exist with his omniscience.[/QUOTE] Relativity has a lot of evidence to back it up, I'm not denying that. I subscribe to the theory myself. Basically I was arguing from a philosophical perspective, I don't actually believe that space and time are independent and that there's a "greater" space. Basically I was just inserting the usual skeptic argument, where you can't even prove that what you're observing actual physical matter, or that your memory works correctly at all. Tl;dr, my point was simply there's no way to know the answer to a question like this or the question of god's existence. It simply defies our comprehension, as god's mere existence (if he exists) defies logic that is engrained in the very fabric of the observable universe.
[QUOTE=ice445;34471403] Tl;dr, my point was simply there's no way to know the answer to a question like this or the question of god's existence. It simply defies our comprehension, as god's mere existence (if he exists) defies logic that is engrained in the very fabric of the observable universe.[/QUOTE] But if god defies logic then how can we use logic to prove he exists? Saying that god defies reason leaves us with no reason to believe that he exists.
[QUOTE=Noble;34471628]But if god defies logic then how can we use logic to prove he exists? Saying that god defies reason leaves us with no reason to believe that he exists.[/QUOTE] We can't. God's existence is a slap in the face against the fundamental principal that in this universe, you don't get something from nothing. That's why I don't subscribe to him.
Personally (not stepping into any of the arguments), I believe that God has a plan for us in the long run, but we're given the free will of how we reach the destination. Also, if we pray to God for help (such as healing a loved one of a disease), God will listen and do what He sees fit for us. My belief is that God can see the path laid out by all of our decisions and thus, He looks for the best possible solution to keep us on the path to salvation. This may mean the loved one dies. Then, it is your decision on what to do next. Either reject God, or keep with the faith. But if He let the loved one live, perhaps they'd only live for a short while longer because of old age or a terrible accident, 'causing much more suffering. God, will try to influence us, yes, but the end decision will still be up to us because of our free will. Now, that probably doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense, but that's probably more of my fault in my inability to express ideas like this eloquently.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34471890]Personally (not stepping into any of the arguments), I believe that God has a plan for us in the long run, but we're given the free will of how we reach the destination. Also, if we pray to God for help (such as healing a loved one of a disease), God will listen and do what He sees fit for us. My belief is that God can see the path laid out by all of our decisions and thus, He looks for the best possible solution to keep us on the path to salvation. This may mean the loved one dies. Then, it is your decision on what to do next. Either reject God, or keep with the faith. But if He let the loved one live, perhaps they'd only live for a short while longer because of old age or a terrible accident, 'causing much more suffering. God, will try to influence us, yes, but the end decision will still be up to us because of our free will. Now, that probably doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense, but that's probably more of my fault in my inability to express ideas like this eloquently.[/QUOTE] So from the way I'm understanding what you're saying, God is giving you free will at the expense of your loved one's free will? Meaning by killing off your loved one, he is in violation of your loved one's free will. So is he arbitrarily deciding who is going to get free will and who isn't? Like what if God decided to let you die in order to test the faith of your loved ones. That doesn't make much sense does it?
[QUOTE=Noble;34472670]So from the way I'm understanding what you're saying, God is giving you free will at the expense of your loved one's free will? Meaning by killing off your loved one, he is in violation of your loved one's free will. So is he arbitrarily deciding who is going to get free will and who isn't? Like what if God decided to let you die in order to test the faith of your loved ones. That doesn't make much sense does it?[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that God gives us cancer or anything. Any diseases we get in life are consequential, like lung cancer from lifelong smoking or a nasty infection from not washing out a cut properly. God can choose whether or not to save us, perhaps for the better or worse of us. Say for instance, a man who is planning to kill another man learns that his mother, whom he loves very much, is on her deathbed. In this case, her death is of natural causes. He then, prays to God for her recovery. If God spares her to live for a few more months, the man may carry out his deed to kill the other man. Yet, if his mother died, perhaps the would be killer would realize how precious life is and not kill the intended. On the note of testing faith, if God decides that I should die, it's not just a test of faith for my loved ones, its a test of faith for myself. Will I reject God when I know that I am going to die on the hospital bed or will I simply accept my fate? I know it's not a perfect example or explanation, but it's not a perfect world. Do I understand why we are this way? No. I just try to make sense of the world as I see it.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34487574]I'm not saying that God gives us cancer or anything. Any diseases we get in life are consequential, like lung cancer from lifelong smoking or a nasty infection from not washing out a cut properly. God can choose whether or not to save us, perhaps for the better or worse of us. Say for instance, a man who is planning to kill another man learns that his mother, whom he loves very much, is on her deathbed. In this case, her death is of natural causes. He then, prays to God for her recovery. If God spares her to live for a few more months, the man may carry out his deed to kill the other man. Yet, if his mother died, perhaps the would be killer would realize how precious life is and not kill the intended. On the note of testing faith, if God decides that I should die, it's not just a test of faith for my loved ones, its a test of faith for myself. Will I reject God when I know that I am going to die on the hospital bed or will I simply accept my fate? I know it's not a perfect example or explanation, but it's not a perfect world. Do I understand why we are this way? No. I just try to make sense of the world as I see it.[/QUOTE] So people with cancer deserved to get cancer? For what though? Even then praying won't cure your cancer. God wouldn't need a plan because he can carry out any task at any time and anywhere. He's a god and the whole thing about being an omniscient deity is that you don't need mortals to carry out your plans.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34487574]I'm not saying that God gives us cancer or anything. Any diseases we get in life are consequential, like lung cancer from lifelong smoking or a nasty infection from not washing out a cut properly.[/quote] What about infants who die of disease or natural disasters? What have they done to deserve that consequence? [quote]God can choose whether or not to save us, perhaps for the better or worse of us.[/quote] And why wouldn't he choose to save the aforementioned infant exactly? [quote]Say for instance, a man who is planning to kill another man learns that his mother, whom he loves very much, is on her deathbed. In this case, her death is of natural causes. He then, prays to God for her recovery. If God spares her to live for a few more months, the man may carry out his deed to kill the other man. Yet, if his mother died, perhaps the would be killer would realize how precious life is and not kill the intended.[/quote] I'm not really following this example here. It sounds a bit circular, set up in a manner that no matter what event occurs, you can conclude "well this is what god intended". [quote]On the note of testing faith, if God decides that I should die, it's not just a test of faith for my loved ones, its a test of faith for myself. Will I reject God when I know that I am going to die on the hospital bed or will I simply accept my fate?[/quote] So is the faith of a 1 year old, too young to even understand the concept of god, being tested when they die in an earthquake along with 10,000 other people? Why hasn't god intervened to give them a chance at life? [quote]I know it's not a perfect example or explanation, but it's not a perfect world. Do I understand why we are this way? No. I just try to make sense of the world as I see it.[/QUOTE] I understand that but I think the problem with this explanation of the world is that it starts with the conclusion (like "god exists and everything is his plan") and try to find reasons to support it, rather than examining the world and then forming conclusions afterward. I don't mean that in a personally offensive way to you but I think that is the problem with religious views in general.
[QUOTE=Noble;34487981] I understand that but I think the problem with this explanation of the world is that it starts with the conclusion (like "god exists and everything is his plan") and try to find reasons to support it, rather than examining the world and then forming conclusions afterward. I don't mean that in a personally offensive way to you but I think that is the problem with religious views in general.[/QUOTE] Which has, quite frankly, been my problem in explaining it. Either way, in my mind, it all comes down to that God has a plan for us in the long run. Is praying going to change that? Maybe, maybe not. I believe it can. But that's just me. Perhaps when someone dies, they are meant to die. It's probably not an answer that anyone wants to hear, but that seems to be the way it is.
God doesn't exist and there's no plan. A plan and free will are mutually exclusive. You can't have both. But how about this: Let's say God has a plan, but there's no free will, and we can prove that there's no free will using the cause and effect argument. When was the last time you did something that wasn't a direct reaction to the thing you did before?
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;34488686]Which has, quite frankly, been my problem in explaining it. Either way, in my mind, it all comes down to that God has a plan for us in the long run. Is praying going to change that? Maybe, maybe not. I believe it can. But that's just me. Perhaps when someone dies, they are meant to die. It's probably not an answer that anyone wants to hear, but that seems to be the way it is.[/QUOTE] So what's the point of praying for a dying person when they're somehow meant to die?
[QUOTE=tanner117;34469867]Trust me, you will know man.[/QUOTE] nope
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