• Feminism and chivalry
    161 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;34582027]If all of life were the pursuit of pleasure over wholesome happiness, much of society would degenerate into a Babylon like archetype where everything is a means to the end of pleasure.[/QUOTE] It sounds like you're using complex words without understanding what they mean.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34582116]It sounds like you're using complex words without understanding what they mean.[/QUOTE] Name one I used improperly
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;34582027]I personally just believe in the man's traditional role that we have held in our species since we crawled out of a cave.[/QUOTE] uh hunter/gatherer societies were mostly egalitarian. [QUOTE=Zenreon117;34582027]It is not so much the assigning of the disposable role to the man, but the idea that in a succesful relationship you cant have 2 rocks or 2 pussys (in the figurative sense) there will always be balance with one being the softer and one being the rock. It just seems to me to be a classic paradigm that should not be cast away as if it were the same as witch hunting.[/QUOTE] what you said doesn't even make any sense. i'm in a "successful relationship" and neither of us are "rocks" or "pussies". that's so amazingly crass and it speaks quite frankly to your inexperience. exactly how old are you?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;34582359]Name one I used improperly[/QUOTE] What exactly is the "pursuit of pleasure over wholesome happiness" supposed to mean?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;34582027]If all of life were the pursuit of pleasure over wholesome happiness, much of society would degenerate into a Babylon like archetype where everything is a means to the end of pleasure. I personally just believe in the man's traditional role that we have held in our species since we crawled out of a cave. It is not so much the assigning of the disposable role to the man, but the idea that in a succesful relationship you cant have 2 rocks or 2 pussys (in the figurative sense) there will always be balance with one being the softer and one being the rock. It just seems to me to be a classic paradigm that should not be cast away as if it were the same as witch hunting.[/QUOTE] I don't know who is the rock and who is the pussy in my relationship, we're still doing fine, it's almost been a year since we moved in together.
i thought it was some kind of anti-gay slur
[QUOTE=Noble;34582909]What exactly is the "pursuit of pleasure over wholesome happiness" supposed to mean?[/QUOTE] Basically the pursuit of carnal pleasure such as sex becoming the main reason for relationship. This may start to overshadow the wholesome (Other than sex) parts of a relationship which inspire true happiness instead of immediate sexual satisfaction. That isnt to say sex has no part in the matter, but the courting and gentlemanly restraint is better than immediate lust.
[QUOTE=Bobv2;34486422]You know, I have [I]literally never[/I] heard a feminist list "ill-begotten and harmful chivalry customs" as scourge that the patriarchy causes. They only seem to bring it up in response to criticism of bias. In all other cases, they only care about things that uniquely oppress women. Not that that isn't something that needs to be addressed, but it's kind of hard to take the definition that feminists tout seriously while they behave like this.[/QUOTE] This is pretty much why I don't call myself a feminist despite wanting equality between genders, ethnicity and sexualities. It's all centered around fixing the problems inequality causes women, but none of the problems inequality causes for men. It's never about making female dominant workspaces to be more accepting of males, it's not about the raising of our children to think they have to behave a certain way because of their gender, it's not about a man's rights in a custody battle or an unplanned pregnancy, it's not about treating men's achievements equal to those of women, it's not about female on male domestic abuse being taken less serious, and it's not about how we represent a man and a woman's worth as victims. I keep getting the feel that feminism wants to fix every scenario where a woman has less rights than a man, but do nothing about the scenarios where a man has less rights than a woman.
[QUOTE=Simski;34586225]This is pretty much why I don't call myself a feminist despite wanting equality between genders, ethnicity and sexualities. It's all centered around fixing the problems inequality causes women, but none of the problems inequality causes for men. It's never about making female dominant workspaces to be more accepting of males, it's not about the raising of our children to think they have to behave a certain way because of their gender, it's not about a man's rights in a custody battle or an unplanned pregnancy, it's not about treating men's achievements equal to those of women, it's not about female on male domestic abuse being taken less serious, and it's not about how we represent a man and a woman's worth as victims. [/QUOTE] except feminism actually is about all those things. feminism is the belief in the sexes being equal, but it is called feminism because both historically and currently women are the primarily disadvantaged group.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;34586431]except feminism actually is about all those things. feminism is the belief in the sexes being equal, but it is called feminism because both historically and currently women are the primarily disadvantaged group.[/QUOTE] Eh, that's certainly not the message they send out. From having spent 3 years as a male minority of a class with 20 girls, 3 guys, and plenty of feminist teachers, it's a mere wonder that I managed to retain my view that women deserves more equal treatment. If what you're saying is true, they certainly not doing a very good job with education and the media to spread the message that they're not just focusing on women.
[QUOTE=Simski;34586500]Eh, that's certainly not the message they send out. From having spent 3 years as a male minority of a class with 20 girls, 3 guys, and plenty of feminist teachers, it's a mere wonder that I managed to retain my view that women deserves more equal treatment. If what you're saying is true, they certainly not doing a very good job with education and the media to spread the message that they're not just focusing on women.[/QUOTE] you ever think that maybe you were just misreading what they were saying? besides that, don't characterize your experience with a few individuals as "the message that they (the entirety of feminists) send out" because that's fallacious
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;34586896]you ever think that maybe you were just misreading what they were saying?[/QUOTE] I don't think I was misreading what they were saying. It's always "women are the victims, men are the culprits", "men have the advantage over women and are physically stronger, but women are more able and therefor stronger than men", "men do not have as much feelings as women and are a lot more insensitive", "men are obsessed with sex while girls like love", "domestic abuse from a man is a lot worse than from a woman because men are physically stronger". That's what people think feminism is about, and that's the message feminism in media sends out. It might not be the true purpose of it all, but it's the message people receive and that some people actually believe in. [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;34586896]besides that, don't characterize your experience with a few individuals as "the message that they (the entirety of feminists) send out" because that's fallacious[/QUOTE] People need to get over the idea that only a few people act this way. Good rational feminists working for actual equality and understanding the real message of feminism is fucking RARE. I have not come across many what so ever, it's not the kind of thing they debate about in the newspapers or the things they press on in politics. Feminism is a confused caricature of what it might once have been. [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] Someone should make a new feminist group of people that actually understand what the fuck "equality" is supposed to mean, and while they're at it they should change the name from "feminist" to something more gender-neutral. Then, why fucking stop at gender discrimination? Why not fucking equality between genders, ethnicities, and sexualities? Is there a general fucking equality group? If it exists, why the fuck do we have feminism, if it does not exist, why the fuck not?
[QUOTE=thisispain;34582470]uh hunter/gatherer societies were mostly egalitarian. what you said doesn't even make any sense. i'm in a "successful relationship" and neither of us are "rocks" or "pussies". that's so amazingly crass and it speaks quite frankly to your inexperience. exactly how old are you?[/QUOTE] Oh really? Neither of you? Let's take a very uncomfortable situation for most men for a second to demonstrate how that isn't possible; Your girlfriend, wife, is offering to fuck you in the ass with a dildo. Yes or no? [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Simski;34587024]I don't think I was misreading what they were saying. It's always "women are the victims, men are the culprits", "men have the advantage over women and are physically stronger, but women are more able and therefor stronger than men", "men do not have as much feelings as women and are a lot more insensitive", "men are obsessed with sex while girls like love", "domestic abuse from a man is a lot worse than from a woman because men are physically stronger". That's what people think feminism is about, and that's the message feminism in media sends out. It might not be the true purpose of it all, but it's the message people receive and that some people actually believe in. People need to get over the idea that only a few people act this way. Good rational feminists working for actual equality and understanding the real message of feminism is fucking RARE. I have not come across many what so ever, it's not the kind of thing they debate about in the newspapers or the things they press on in politics. Feminism is a confused caricature of what it might once have been. [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] Someone should make a new feminist group of people that actually understand what the fuck "equality" is supposed to mean, and while they're at it they should change the name from "feminist" to something more gender-neutral. Then, why fucking stop at gender discrimination? Why not fucking equality between genders, ethnicities, and sexualities? Is there a general fucking equality group? If it exists, why the fuck do we have feminism, if it does not exist, why the fuck not?[/QUOTE] I agree completely my friend. True feminists are scarce and so is the understanding of what "feminism" truly means.
[QUOTE=Seith;34587487]Oh really? Neither of you? Let's take a very uncomfortable situation for most men for a second to demonstrate how that isn't possible; Your girlfriend, wife, is offering to fuck you in the ass with a dildo. Yes or no?[/QUOTE] what does that have to do with anything? but for the record i'm willing to try anything once. [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Simski;34587024] If it exists, why the fuck do we have feminism, if it does not exist, why the fuck not?[/QUOTE] ugh the point of feminism is female empowerment. you pretend as if it's some kind of occupation and you can't be a feminist and against racism or something. and the general equality group you are looking for is called Leftism. extend that philosophy to the economic concepts and you're a socialist.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34590909]the point of feminism is female empowerment.[/QUOTE] Then fuck it. I'd rather support equality. [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] I want to create an Epicurean group. Fuck communism, fuck capitalism, fuck socialism, I want goddamn Epicurealism. It's the only philosophy thing that makes complete sense in every possible way.
okay so what does this have to do with feminism again?
[QUOTE=thisispain;34592578]okay so what does this have to do with feminism again?[/QUOTE] Equality, the thing modern feminism has forgotten all about.
[QUOTE=Simski;34592605]Equality, the thing modern feminism has forgotten all about.[/QUOTE] modern feminism is a back-lash towards old feminism. i'd suggest you actually read some feminist literature before declaring shit like that.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34592783]modern feminism is a back-lash towards old feminism. i'd suggest you actually read some feminist literature before declaring shit like that.[/QUOTE] I'd rather read the whole Twilight series.
[QUOTE=Simski;34593988]I'd rather read the whole Twilight series.[/QUOTE] okay well obviously not knowing what the fuck you are talking about doesn't bother you but don't expect anyone, including me, to take your criticisms seriously.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34594085]okay well obviously not knowing what the fuck you are talking about doesn't bother you but don't expect anyone, including me, to take your criticisms seriously.[/QUOTE] My message is that they're not doing a good job at portraying themselves as a group working for equality between men and women rather than a group working for equality for women and women alone. Your idea that I need to read their literature to understand what the fuck they're trying to do is not helping whatever point you're trying to make. If their literature is anything like the feminism I've come to know, then I would not be caught dead reading it. Considering how cynically you usually post I don't take you too serious either way.
Feminism was started with the belief that women are, at least on an intellectual level, equal to men, which is a wholly good thing. The feminist protest and revolts of the last century women have led to women becoming equal to men on nearly every law in the developed world, in some cases, they actually get a far better standing (E.G. Custody laws). However, when feminists achieved this goal, they also made men out to be inherently evil, to the point where in today's society, we see women as the abused, and men as the abuser. This leads to, that when the opposite is true, (e.g. a woman rapes a man) we (the majority of the developed world) see it as justice, rather than a crime.
[QUOTE=Simski;34594168]My message is that they're not doing a good job at portraying themselves as a group working for equality between men and women rather than a group working for equality for women and women alone. Your idea that I need to read their literature to understand what the fuck they're trying to do is not helping whatever point you're trying to make. If their literature is anything like the feminism I've come to know, then I would not be caught dead reading it. Considering how cynically you usually post I don't take you too serious either way.[/QUOTE] now you're just being obstinate
Women deserve all the opportunities men do, women deserve to be allowed to vote, hold public office, acheive high levels of success but should also be made to try as hard as men. I'm sorry, but I want the firefighter or police officer to be able to actually help me when I am in need, move the car part, piece of fallen wood, whatever off of me. To lower entry requirements just for the benefit of women is ridiculous, keep everything at an even level when you preach equality. Also, if women can set up women only clubs, groups, scholarships and such, then so should men.
[QUOTE=Simski;34594168]My message is that they're not doing a good job at portraying themselves as a group working for equality between men and women rather than a group working for equality for women and women alone. Your idea that I need to read their literature to understand what the fuck they're trying to do is not helping whatever point you're trying to make. If their literature is anything like the feminism I've come to know, then I would not be caught dead reading it.[/QUOTE] my point is that your understanding of feminism is zero unless you actually read and try to understand what the point behind it is. it's not their fucking job to advertise and educate you on feminist goals, that's your job. and of course the media is going to portray them negatively, feminism is perceived as a threat towards the establishment. [QUOTE=Simski;34594168]Considering how cynically you usually post I don't take you too serious either way.[/QUOTE] accusing me of cynicism then declaring that all feminists must think alike without reading their writings? you're just fucking with me now aren't you? feminism isn't a single ideology anymore in any case, it's now just a line of theory relating to female empowerment.
[QUOTE=LCBADs;34594337]now you're just being obstinate[/QUOTE] I'm always willing to change my opinion if my opponent is convincing enough, just generally acting like a cunt and telling me that I'm uneducated without giving me the facts to why I'm supposedly wrong is not going to change my opinion.
[QUOTE=Gundevil;34594385]Also, if women can set up women only clubs, groups, scholarships and such, then so should men.[/QUOTE] these groups, clubs, or scholarships are set up as a response to female exclusion. there would be no need to have women-only clubs or groups if women were allowed to participate in everything men are allowed to participate in. the same concept applies to black scholarships and groups.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34594426]my point is that your understanding of feminism is zero unless you actually read and try to understand what the point behind it is. it's not their fucking job to advertise and educate you on feminist goals, that's your job. and of course the media is going to portray them negatively, feminism is perceived as a threat towards the establishment. accusing me of cynicism then declaring that all feminists must think alike without reading their writings? you're just fucking with me now aren't you? feminism isn't a single ideology anymore in any case, it's now just a line of theory relating to female empowerment.[/QUOTE] Either way you haven't read my other posts in this thread and is just targeting that specific one if you think I'm talking about all feminists, so I'm going to just ignore the rest of your post for now since I don't feel like reading your posts if you won't read mine.
[QUOTE=Simski;34594439]I'm always willing to change my opinion if my opponent is convincing enough, just generally acting like a cunt and telling me that I'm uneducated without giving me the facts to why I'm supposedly wrong is not going to change my opinion.[/QUOTE] uh you yourself admitted that you didn't read any feminist literature. does that mean i'm not allowed to call into question exactly how much you know? considering most of your arguments have been based on a strawman (ahem strawwoman) of what a feminist is supposed to be, i think i'm right for doing so.
Really though, you're ALWAYS insanely aggressive every time I see you argue something. Not just in this thread, but in other debate threads, and in the sensationalist headlines section. I generally don't like reading your posts due to how it feels like hanging out with someone from the gestapo.
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