[QUOTE='[VJGX];19048690']As in most similar cases, I believe that arguing over each other's beliefs is completely pointless. 99% of the time, calling others ignorant or wrong for believing differently than you does nothing to change their minds, and it tends to only make you look pretentious or confrontational; this applies to any belief system, atheistic or Christian.
My point: stop arguing over stuff no one can prove; it's pointless.[/QUOTE]
Ugh. You're doing the exact thing you just described.
There is a logical position to everything. Whether you want to accept it or not, there is. With all the available knowledge, such a position shouldn't be hard to reach.
[QUOTE=TH89;19048700]Atheism isn't a belief system[/QUOTE]
Well, maybe "belief system" is the wrong phrase for it, but it is a belief - in this case, the belief that there is no God.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;19048670]It's been with mankind as a comfort, for when we didn't know why lightning killed half our goats and why your wife was ill. The thing is, we don't need such comforts anymore, as we know why these things happen.[/QUOTE]
knowing [i]how[/i] something terrible happens hardly makes it feel better.
Go ahead and try to comfort someone who's sister just died of a brain tumor by explaining to them, in precise scientific detail, the causes of brain tumors and the effects that they have on the body. See how much good that does.
[QUOTE='[VJGX];19048719']Well, maybe "belief system" is the wrong phrase for it, but it is a belief - in this case, the belief that there is no God.[/QUOTE]
Disbelief in god is the default logical position. You don't need a word for the disbelief in Santa do you?
[QUOTE='[VJGX];19048719']Well, maybe "belief system" is the wrong phrase for it, but it is a belief - in this case, the belief that there is no God.[/QUOTE]
or just lack of belief.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;19048714]Ugh. You're doing the exact thing you just described.
There is a logical position to everything. Whether you want to accept it or not, there is. With all the available knowledge, such a position shouldn't be hard to reach.[/QUOTE]
what kind of life is a purely logical one? You need to read up on bokononism.
See, this thread evokes absolutely no emotion from me except laughter. The laughing is totally unrelated to this thread.
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;19048725]knowing [i]how[/i] something terrible happens hardly makes it feel better.
Go ahead and try to comfort someone who's sister just died of a brain tumor by explaining to them, in precise scientific detail, the causes of brain tumors and the effects that they have on the body. See how much good that does.[/QUOTE]
Knowing the causes is a giant leap forward to being able to cure it. What is a comfort that she will be going to a better place?
[QUOTE=KigJow;19048706]I read the Bible more than once. :smug:
What I'm saying is that the people who followed Jesus himself didn't believe what they saw.[/QUOTE]
Should I ask again how you know that, or was that a serious answer?
[QUOTE='[VJGX];19048719']Well, maybe "belief system" is the wrong phrase for it, but it is a belief - in this case, the belief that there is no God.[/QUOTE]
Only insofar as not being afraid of being crushed by an asteroid when I go outside is a belief
[QUOTE='[VJGX];19048719']Well, maybe "belief system" is the wrong phrase for it, but it is a belief - in this case, the belief that there is no God.[/QUOTE]
So you need a belief for everything you do not believe in?
[QUOTE=Kybalt;19048731]Disbelief in god is the default logical position. You don't need a word for the disbelief in Santa do you?[/QUOTE]
don't talk about defaults, humans aren't light switches
[QUOTE='[VJGX];19048690']As in most similar cases, I believe that arguing over each other's beliefs is completely pointless. 99% of the time, calling others ignorant or wrong for believing differently than you does nothing to change their minds, and it tends to only make you look pretentious or confrontational; this applies to any belief system, atheistic or Christian.
My point: stop arguing over stuff no one can prove; it's pointless.[/QUOTE]
No it isn't, beliefs inform actions, if lots of people believe something that's retarded then it ends up with retarded religion based legislation getting passed, and it does. If all governments were truly secular(i.e. not just on paper), and that being an atheist didn't mean shit during an election and that no one cared that only science gets taught during science classes then you'd be right, it would be a waste of time going against religion as it wouldn't be important, but this isn't the world we live in.
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;19048742]what kind of life is a purely logical one? You need to read up on [B]bokononism[/B].[/QUOTE]
Bokononism is the fictional religion practiced by many of the characters in Kurt Vonnegut's novel Cat's Cradle.
It is based on the concept of foma, which are defined as harmless untruths. The primary tenet of Bokononism is to "Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy." Many of the sacred texts of Bokononism were written in the form of calypsos. The foundation of Bokononism is that all religion, including Bokononism and all its texts, is formed entirely of lies; however, if you believe and adhere to these lies, you will at least have peace of mind, and perhaps live a good life.
I can't help but feel that this religion was placed into the book as a metaphor for how ridiculous religion really is.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;19048749]Knowing the causes is a giant leap forward to being able to cure it. What is a comfort that she will be going to a better place?[/QUOTE]
the whole "better place" part
sorta has to do with that "caring" thing people make such a fuss about
[QUOTE=TH89;19048754]Only insofar as not being afraid of being crushed by an asteroid when I go outside is a belief[/QUOTE]
Which would be applying a label to a thought that does not exist, which would be completely pointless.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;19048714]Ugh. You're doing the exact thing you just described.
There is a logical position to everything. Whether you want to accept it or not, there is. With all the available knowledge, such a position shouldn't be hard to reach.[/QUOTE]
How is my post arguing over each other's beliefs, like I just described? I don't see how you can accuse me of this when all I'm doing is advising against it from a neutral position (logical or not).
For you, your "logical position" and beliefs are specific to you. Of course they make sense to you, but not every single thing that happens or exists can be interpreted in exactly the same manner. Science has its limits, and arguments over other realms, the afterlife, etc. exist outside these limits. Even with logic, it's not fully possible to comprehend a reason for everything.
Then again, I'm just replying with the same kind of argumentation over beliefs that I just criticized. Oh well, I guess that makes me a hypocrite.
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;19048760][B]don't talk about defaults[/B], humans aren't light switches[/QUOTE]
Like it or not, there is a default position.
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;19048760]don't talk about defaults, humans aren't light switches[/QUOTE]
This is true
Religion is a fairly logical progression of a tendency to ascribe intent to inexplicable phenomena, as a survival mechanism
[QUOTE='[VJGX];19048779']How is my post arguing over each other's beliefs, like I just described? I don't see how you can accuse me of this when all I'm doing is advising against it from a neutral position (logical or not).
For you, your "logical position" and beliefs are specific to you. Of course they make sense to you, but not every single thing that happens or exists can be interpreted in exactly the same manner. Science has its limits, and arguments over other realms, the afterlife, etc. exist outside these limits. Even with logic, it's not fully possible to[B] comprehend a reason for everything.[/B]
Then again, I'm just replying with the same kind of argumentation over beliefs that I just criticized. Oh well, I guess that makes me a hypocrite.[/QUOTE]
You make the assumption that there is a reason for everything.
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;19048760]don't talk about defaults, humans aren't light switches[/QUOTE]
No, they're billions of lights switches. But they're still not capable of believing in every undisproven possibility. Therefore, disbelief is the logical default position.
[QUOTE=TH89;19048788]This is true
Religion is a fairly logical progression of a tendency to ascribe intent to inexplicable phenomena, as a survival mechanism[/QUOTE]
Truth, but now we should know better right?
[QUOTE=Kybalt;19048767]Bokononism is the fictional religion practiced by many of the characters in Kurt Vonnegut's novel Cat's Cradle.
It is based on the concept of foma, which are defined as harmless untruths. The primary tenet of Bokononism is to "Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy." Many of the sacred texts of Bokononism were written in the form of calypsos. The foundation of Bokononism is that all religion, including Bokononism and all its texts, is formed entirely of lies; however, if you believe and adhere to these lies, you will at least have peace of mind, and perhaps live a good life.
I can't help but feel that this religion was placed into the book as a metaphor for how ridiculous religion really is.[/QUOTE]
It's sort of weird that reading the first paragraph of a wikipedia article gives you such a strong impression of the book.
The point is that absolute truths do nothing to alleviate the human condition, and that there's nothing wrong in believing harmless untruths. Believing in a god is not inherently harmful, but it can certainly help a person deal with this world. And If there is no god, the universe isn't going to slap you for being wrong.
[QUOTE=FLoggin Moffins;19047299]Young sir, I am in no way trying to impose my own believes on you, for that is the work of the Atheist mindset; a mindset which is based upon a limited understanding of the world. For how can thee who does not understand the world even begin to comprehend the vast world of the afterlife, but be warned; the Atheist will attempt to twist and contort your mind, just as the Christians did to them. For they were able to break away from that, but never quite completely left. So they go on living live trying to impose the same beliefs of Christianity, but through a different message. More pity to the weak I say, it's never too late to learn.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, because your understanding of the world is so much better, the fact that you're agnostic points to an even more constricted view of the world.
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;19048804]It's sort of weird that reading the first paragraph of a wikipedia article gives you such a strong impression of the book.[/QUOTE]
But the book ends with Bokonon telling all his followers to kill themselves, which they do
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;19048804]The point is that absolute truths do nothing to alleviate the human condition, and that there's nothing wrong in believing harmless untruths. Believing in a god is not inherently harmful. If there is no god, the universe isn't going to slap you for being wrong.[/QUOTE]
Unless you're a Christian Scientist, presumably.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;19048791]You make the assumption that there is a reason for everything.[/QUOTE]
Assuming that cause = effect, that should be true. If not, what would be an example of something happening without reason? And by reason, I don't mean "fate" or "God's will"; I'm not trying to advocate religion here.
[QUOTE=TH89;19048815]But the book ends with Bokonon telling all his followers to kill themselves, which they do[/QUOTE]
Only because of the whole "The entire world has instantly become a frozen wasteland devoid of life, food, and drinkable water" thing
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;19048804]It's sort of weird that reading the first paragraph of a wikipedia article gives you such a strong impression of the book.
The point is that absolute truths do nothing to alleviate the human condition, and that there's nothing wrong in believing harmless untruths. Believing in a god is not inherently harmful. If there is no god, the universe isn't going to slap you for being wrong.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I'll read it some time.
Knowledge can do something to alleviate the human condition. We can figure out how to fix it. When does something go from a harmless untruth to a harmful untruth? The person believing it can't possibly answer this question as what he believes is the truth, no? If there is no god, then we are wasting a lot of time, and a lot of people are wasting their lives, dedicated to something that doesn't exist. How many of them could have gone on to becoming a great inventor or scientist?
[editline]02:29AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;19048836]Only because of the whole "The entire world has instantly become a frozen wasteland devoid of life, food, and drinkable water" thing[/QUOTE]
Okay maybe I don't have to read the book anymore. Thanks. Asshole. :v:
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;19048804]The point is that absolute truths do nothing to alleviate the human condition, and that there's nothing wrong in believing harmless untruths. Believing in a god is not inherently harmful, but it can certainly help a person deal with this world. And If there is no god, the universe isn't going to slap you for being wrong.[/QUOTE]
It's not inherently harmful, but it usually is. The brain doesn't build models without applying them, and more importantly, it doesn't build them in the first place without some need for an application.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;19048854]Maybe I'll read it some time.
Knowledge can do something to alleviate the human condition. We can figure out how to fix it.[/QUOTE]
But figuring things out is not incompatible with a belief in god. You can believe in god and still learn how to fight disease.
[editline]12:30AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kybalt;19048854]
Okay maybe I don't have to read the book anymore. Thanks. Asshole. :v:[/QUOTE]
the spoiler tags don't work and th89 gave away part of the ending anyway
[QUOTE='[VJGX];19048816']Assuming that [B]cause = effect[/B], that should be true. If not, what would be an example of something happening without reason? And by reason, I don't mean "fate" or "God's will"; I'm not trying to advocate religion here.[/QUOTE]
Well, the big bang is an interesting one, as if the universe was a singularity "before" the big bang, there would be no progression of time, thus you couldn't have a cause, or well, a "before." So The Big Bang is definitely interesting as far as cause and effect goes.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.