• Should "Under God" be removed from pledge?
    180 replies, posted
I don't think it matters if it is in there or not. Being a godless person I really don't care and it doesn't offend me either. In most places they only make you say it in elementary school before children fully understand what it means. So by the time you understand what it means you don't have to say it anymore so who cares. Just a bunch of tightwads who get upset over every little thing right? If people really get upset about it it's dumb. It's generic, it doesn't specify which god, you could replace god with earth, land or some other noun if you aren't religious. To me god is just the sun. I don't worship the sun like a god but without it we could not be here.
[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;32385459]I don't think it matters if it is in there or not. Being a godless person I really don't care and it doesn't offend me either. In most places they only make you say it in elementary school before children fully understand what it means. So by the time you understand what it means you don't have to say it anymore so who cares. Just a bunch of tightwads who get upset over every little thing right? If people really get upset about it it's dumb. It's generic, it doesn't specify which god, you could replace god with earth, land or some other noun if you aren't religious. To me god is just the sun. I don't worship the sun like a god but without it we could not be here.[/QUOTE] By this logic I can replace the entire pledge, but people would still be angry now wouldn't they?
From what I know, "Under God" was added in to the pledge during the time the USSR was still formed. So, of course, the USA is going to want to be as different as possible. Thus, "Under God" was added to identify the nation as non-communist (because all those communists are just blood-thirsty atheists, right?) in a time when the "better dead than Red" sentiment was at a peak. There's your reason for it. Personally, I think it's silly to have it in, but that's a personal opinion. I believe people ought to be able to choose to say it or not. The schools that force kids to say it? That's unacceptable. Removing it entirely might be a little over-the-top but I wouldn't mind it. People should not be required to say it however.
[QUOTE=Fables;32385339]Can you give me a source?[/QUOTE] I am the source.
[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32385680]I am the source.[/QUOTE] i beg to differ
When I was in elementary and middle school, I was made to say the pledge daily. Not knowing better, I did, but today I omit the words 'under God' because I believe as the video stated quite clearly. Even if you're not made to say it, as children, you wouldn't know any better.
[QUOTE=Fables;32385423]You seriously didn't know what the pledge meant at 6th grade?[/QUOTE] No, I meant as a sixth grader I didn't understand the profound depth of pledging allegiance to something. I knew what the words meant.
[QUOTE=Macktastic;32385698]i beg to differ[/QUOTE] Cool story. Why does it seem like I'm being trolled every time I post in the thread?
There shouldn't even BE a pledge.
[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32385722]Cool story. Why does it seem like I'm being trolled every time I post in the thread?[/QUOTE] Well because you are providing anecdotal evidence to your examples which doesn't actually suffice in a proper argument.
[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32385722]Cool story. Why does it seem like I'm being trolled every time I post in the thread?[/QUOTE] well, you stated that in Illinois you have to say the pledge I live in Illinois and I don't have to say it, in fact, I have never been forced to say it the 7 years I was living here, so don't try to pass that off as a fact with 'yourself' as the source
I'm personally more concerned with god being in our national motto. It's a phrase that's supposed to speak for what we stand for. "In God we trust" seems a bit 20th century to me and needlessly exclusionary.
[QUOTE=Macktastic;32385783]well, you stated that in Illinois you have to say the pledge I live in Illinois and I don't have to say it, in fact, I have never been forced to say it the 7 years I was living here, so don't try to pass that off as a fact with 'yourself' as the source[/QUOTE] Where do you live?
[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32385894]Where do you live?[/QUOTE] See the easiest thing you could have possibly done to avoid this is just search the law instead of basing your argument off of your experience. [url]http://www.illinois.gov/PressReleases/ShowPressRelease.cfm?RecNum=1825&SubjectID=2[/url] The specific part pertinent to this whole situation: [quote]Senate Bill 1634 and current Illinois law do not mandate that all pupils recite the Pledge of Allegiance and do not contain any penalty for not reciting it. They merely call upon students in elementary and secondary institutions that receive some sort of state funding to recite the Pledge of Allegiance on school days.[/quote] Essentially schools get some minor funding if they do the pledge, but the students aren't required to participate.
[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;32385894]Where do you live?[/QUOTE] chicagoland area
[QUOTE=loco;32384205]I don't mind saying it if anything when I do the pledge I like to think of my friend that died in 9/11. I personally think its a little pointless trying to get rid of it like how people wanted to get rid of that Christmas tree the President puts up.[/QUOTE]This.All the way.
I love college because you do not have to deal with a dumb pledge, feels good man. So I am neutral on the subject.
[QUOTE=MegaChalupa;32385163]You have to draw the line somewhere, not to mention it was a totally unnecessary addition to begin with.[/QUOTE] Indeed you do. I think the pledge in and of itself is pretty fucking stupid. The "under god" part doesn't really make it worse. It's a well-known fact that it's a Christian nation, and I'm pretty sure nobody hearing that is converted. If anything, it may make them curious, and some independent research is all it takes to find out it's a crock.
dont have to resite the pledge here if you dont want to. just stand up and show some respect for this country is all
[QUOTE=TropicalV2;32385180]also if you guys are going to say something is unconstitutional at least try to provide some sort of case law citation to back up your opinions[/QUOTE] [url]http://articles.cnn.com/2002-06-26/justice/pledge.allegiance_1_appeals-court-9th-circuit-allegiance-in-public-schools?_s=PM:LAW[/url] Keep in mind I'm in the UK - I don't actually know much about the US justice system so I might be completely wrong about this
I really think that religion shouldn't be mixed into state business in any way, unless it's completely objective. In Denmark the Church is supported through taxes by default, but you can change that with a simple letter or phone call, so I don't see it as a problem.
I don't mind and I'm an extremely patriotic Christian.
I don't think it does any harm but I guess it would be nice to cement the idea that politics should be entirely secular: which it should.
[QUOTE=TropicalV2;32384927]no problem, I had to watch it in conflict resolution last year along with all the other videos that were submitted for the secularist values project. here are the rest if you're interested [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-fCOsTafEsp[/media][/QUOTE] The problem with the majority of these videos, with the exception of the last, is that they actually push even for more polarisation and ridicule of the religious than before. The last video on the other hand manages to avoid this and is neutral towards the rest of the groups. In this way it manages to push forward a much much stronger point which far more people are willing to listen to. As to opinion. Towards the pledge - A large amount of European nations are also very religious and references to god are included into these pledges. But these are optional elements which can be left out without the legality of this pledge being impacted. Even if there is a version with no references, one saying the pledge can attach a reference to god if they so will. Without impacting the pledges. Though in this case this is merely an attachment and usually not directly included as part of the pledge. Thus I have nothing against the american pledge including a reference to god, if one is allowed to not include it without impacting the legality of it. (when being sworn into office and others). Likewise a speaker should be allowed to replace god with gods or another personal point. As to the we trust in god on the bills. Here is a point I strongly oppose to as it does in fact breach secularist notions and does in fact come over as institutionalized preference for monotheistic religions. Secularism might be a part of the constitution that is not popular with a large number of people including politicians, but as long as it is part of tenets of the consitution then the government has to act in it's spirit. And that applies for the courts as well.
You are not required to mention god in the pledge anymore and I doubt they will change the lyrics, but I'm not sure why it is still on our currency... My guess is that the "in God we trust" is on the penny to re-assure those who are flipping it for decision making. If you get a heads, then you can be confident that god wants you to proceed with what you are doing (lol).
Didn't i tell that people don't have the brains for religion?
Absolutely not. We are a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values, and the Pledge of Allegiance should show that. It should also be mandatory, but that's a different argument.
[QUOTE=rosar0980;32396642]Absolutely not. We are a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values, and the Pledge of Allegiance should show that. It should also be mandatory, but that's a different argument.[/QUOTE] This comment combined with your avatar is pretty scary.
[QUOTE=Turnips5;32391869][url]http://articles.cnn.com/2002-06-26/justice/pledge.allegiance_1_appeals-court-9th-circuit-allegiance-in-public-schools?_s=PM:LAW[/url] Keep in mind I'm in the UK - I don't actually know much about the US justice system so I might be completely wrong about this[/QUOTE] it's understandable that you aren't sure of how court appeals work since you're a foreigner supreme court rulings supersede district court rulings, and although a distract court found the pledge unconstitutional, that decision was overturned by the supreme court
I go to a choir college. We have choir four times a week, and 80% of the material we sing is religious/spiritual because that's what composers wrote about. The school is filled with agnostics and atheists and gays. Nobody gives a fuck.
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