Should bullies be accountable for suicides that they caused?
122 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Musculus;34110248]There's not. What's your point? No sociologist made studies about those facts, so I can't make hypothesises?
Tell me why you find it wrong. What I said is what I used to get rid of bullies. Maybe you have some elements which can invalidate my idea.[/QUOTE]
The burden of proof is on you when you say that bullying is useful. Your own experience doesn't mean anything when hundreds of kids are being bullied to the point of death, whether it's because of suicide or actual physical violence.
And Jesus Christ, guys. "Natural selection" doesn't justify anything.
[QUOTE=Bean Shoot;34117583]The burden of proof is on you when you say that bullying is useful. Your own experience doesn't mean anything when hundreds of kids are being bullied to the point of death, whether it's because of suicide or actual physical violence.[/QUOTE]
Sorry man, I'm more of a Karl Popper's follower. The burden of evidence (not of proof you silly, we're not in a legal discussion) relying on the refuter, reality being unable to be proved for good.
Anyway, in the context of social science, evidence is a quite complex notion. Because of invisible factors which can't appear in the studies. The scientific method would be unable to measure such notions as "respect", "jealousy" or "indifference". I wouldn't be able to give you the graphics and statistic boards you're looking for, because they don't exist, and can't exist.
In social sciences, we rely more on observations and people's accounts to try to make some sort of vague theory which could make everything understandable. If someone says something, it can make a theory. If someone else says something else which is closer of the reality, it can destroys the previous theory.
I said something which could be a rather interesting theory (i.e. bullies can be sort of useful because they prepare people to real life), now you give me your personal observation (i.e., social observation, or logical thinking) to show me that's a big fat lie. And don't go again "No u", that's a very negative attitude.
The bully did not cause the suicide, the recipient chose to commit suicide. It's not like the bully brainwashed the kid into suicide. Next time, teach kids the right way to react to bullying.
[QUOTE=Musculus;34118527]Sorry man, I'm more of a Karl Popper's follower. The burden of evidence (not of proof you silly, we're not in a legal discussion) relying on the refuter, reality being unable to be proved for good.
Anyway, in the context of social science, evidence is a quite complex notion. Because of invisible factors which can't appear in the studies. The scientific method would be unable to measure such notions as "respect", "jealousy" or "indifference". I wouldn't be able to give you the graphics and statistic boards you're looking for, because they don't exist, and can't exist.
In social sciences, we rely more on observations and people's accounts to try to make some sort of vague theory which could make everything understandable. If someone says something, it can make a theory. If someone else says something else which is closer of the reality, it can destroys the previous theory.
I said something which could be a rather interesting theory (i.e. bullies can be sort of useful because they prepare people to real life), now you give me your personal observation (i.e., social observation, or logical thinking) to show me that's a big fat lie. And don't go again "No u", that's a very negative attitude.[/QUOTE]Hitler was a hero because without him, we would be unprepared to face the evils of the world. My thesis on WWII by Musculus.
Depends on how the bully was to the person.
Bullies that basically beat up a kid everyday and treat them like shit are most likely accountable to the persons suicide.
But if it's just teasing, like, "hey man you're ugly, just kidding how's your life?" then it's not accountable.
It's a yes or no thing really.
[editline]9th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=psychojake;34118568]The bully did not cause the suicide, the recipient chose to commit suicide. It's not like the bully brainwashed the kid into suicide. Next time, teach kids the right way to react to bullying.[/QUOTE]
Or here's what a smart person would do, ignore them. Bullies tend to seek a reaction, may it be flipping them off or reacting by insulting them. They look for that in a person, if you just walk off and pretend they were bullying another kid, then they would look for another target.
The bullies should be punished, no question, but not held criminally responsible. Their names should be given to major media outlets, articles and accounts of incidents occurring made public knowledge. The fact they caused a suicide does not haunt them, they get past it eventually. Instead, MAKE it haunt them so that way when ever they make a friend, or go for a job, just searching their name on Facebook lets people know the person they are.
So you know, in a lot of places young people who are charged with anything don't have their names released, if you don't charge them you can put their names down, thus resulting in people knowing who did what.
They should definately be held accountable, there is no question about that. That doesn't mean they should be charged with murder though.
Ideally it should even need to be an issue, bullying has proven to be fatal in a fair few cases and should be treated a hell of a lot more seriously than it is at the moment. Back when I was in school I'm ashamed to say that I bullied someone for quite a long time. Once me and my friend took the piss out of him until he cried during a lesson and the teacher just laughed at him, looking back on it i'm pretty disgusted that I got away with it.
Bullies need to be told, and to understand exactly how they are making the other person feel, and how horrible it makes the other persons life, instead of just being told "stop it". The only way you're going to stop bullying is by making sure people know how badly it can make people feel, instead of insane "zero tolerance" policies.
They should be accountable for bullying, but not for the suicide. Suicide is always the choice of the individual.
[QUOTE=Musculus;34118527]
I said something which could be a rather interesting theory (i.e. bullies can be sort of useful because they prepare people to real life), now you give me your personal observation (i.e., social observation, or logical thinking) to show me that's a big fat lie. And don't go again "No u", that's a very negative attitude.[/QUOTE]
Except your personal observation can't be generalized into fitting the different situations kids face. Point is, there are tons of kids being bullied to the point of death, like I said before. Just saying that it builds character doesn't justify it in any way, so that line of thinking doesn't have anything to do with the thread.
No, more bad could come from that than good
As much as I loathed bullies as a child, no.
The thing is anyone who would consider killing themselves JUST because of some asshole is not seeing the positive things they have in life, its a fault in the people who commit suicide more than it is in the bullies. Why would you obsess over someone you hate to the point you would end your life just to get away from them? Why not focus on how much your parents love you? Or how your doing academically? Or on what you want to do with your life when your older? Or just fucking stare at the clouds and think "wow this place is quite beautiful"?
The thing is most people who DO commit suicide don't have only one reason for doing it. If their life is complete shit then the bully becomes intolerable, its circumstantial.
Besides bullies are human too, and as such subject to the same human emotions such as a guilt that they will carry with them woith the rest of their life, and the fact that in their minds they "got away with it" will make the impact even more profound. I believe this is proper punishment for insensitive assholes.
This is somewhat similar to the Charles Manson murders (debate wise)...
I personally don't think anybody should be held accountable for suicide if they did nothing more then mentally encourage it.
Bullies simply help to ensure the survival of the fittest.
bear in mind that many bullies have problems of their own, neglect for example. I think this is part of the reason we don't hold them accountable as often - they shouldn't always be.
I don't think we should punish the bully at all, no doubt they'd already be wracked with guilt - better to help/rehabilitate the bully than punish them.
The bully should be charged with involuntary manslaughter
[QUOTE=Midas22;34125570]The bully should be charged with involuntary manslaughter[/QUOTE]
Your just saying that cause you got bullied.
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Muukkis;34102185]This. It would be completely insane to hold someone accountable for something they have not directly caused. Schools and other institutions should just take better care to stop bullying.
That is a flawed analogue since drunk driving is illegal while being a dick is not. If the bullying itself is not a crime, it should be not illegal if it leads someone to suicide either.
For example : If you fire an employee that has been slacking off at work and he kills himself, you technically caused him to kill himself and should be held accountable.[/QUOTE]
But firing someone isn't an intentionally malicious act. Bullying is. When you fire someone in this case, you're not aiming to make their lives hell, you're aiming to help your company by removing an ineffective worker. Can it accomplish the same? Definitely. But it's not like you're thinking "oh man I know how I'm going to make Jeff's life hell, I'll FIRE HIS ASS!" There's a difference in intentions here.
Bullying is intentionally causing suffering to another person, it doesn't matter if they didn't intend the person to kill themselves because they still were trying to cause misery for their own amusement. They shouldn't be charged with murder but extreme bullying should get punished definitely because they knew they were hurting someone and were taking the time to harass them to this level.
[QUOTE=blubafoon;34125521]bear in mind that many bullies have problems of their own, neglect for example. I think this is part of the reason we don't hold them accountable as often - they shouldn't always be.
I don't think we should punish the bully at all, no doubt they'd already be wracked with guilt - better to help/rehabilitate the bully than punish them.[/QUOTE]
I think they should be punished, it's highly unlikely they didn't know what they were doing (maybe not to the level of suicide but they knew they were making someone's life hell). I am not saying of course that they should be locked up for life with the key thrown away, they should get therapy too and be rehabilitated but they need to understand the consequences of what they did. I remember reading in the news stories where the bullies continued making fun of the deceased after they killed themselves, that's sick, they don't all feel remorse.
If a bully caused the suicide by ruining the victims life, then yes let him rot in fucking prison.
You know what, in my opinion they can kill him.
Words and mentality are the new weapons these days.
[QUOTE=xXDictatorXx;34125873]Bullying is intentionally causing suffering to another person, it doesn't matter if they didn't intend the person to kill themselves because they still were trying to cause misery for their own amusement. They shouldn't be charged with murder but extreme bullying should get punished definitely because they knew they were hurting someone and were taking the time to harass them to this level.
I think they should be punished, it's highly unlikely they didn't know what they were doing (maybe not to the level of suicide but they knew they were making someone's life hell). I am not saying of course that they should be locked up for life with the key thrown away, they should get therapy too and be rehabilitated but they need to understand the consequences of what they did. I remember reading in the news stories where the bullies continued making fun of the deceased after they killed themselves, that's sick, they don't all feel remorse.[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but I really don't think we should be giving them criminal records over it, it's not productive at all.
It's threads like these that remind me how full of (apparent) sociopaths Facepunch is.
No. As has been said, there are many factors that come into whether someone commits suicide or not, and someone could be, by nature, so mentally and emotionally unstable that even the slightest provocation causes them to snap. Holding bullies accountable for a death? Bad, bad idea.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;34126250]It's threads like these that remind me how full of (apparent) sociopaths Facepunch is.[/QUOTE]
The issue here is, that a bully is usually not an adult themselves and tends to not realise the ramifications of what they do.
A second point to realise is who usually commits suicide. It's not a person that was bullied by one or two people, but usually someone that ended up getting ostracised from the entire community (class whatever).
The bullying itself should be held to accountability. The potential suicide not.
[QUOTE=blubafoon;34126163]Maybe, but I really don't think we should be giving them criminal records over it, it's not productive at all.[/QUOTE]
Not for manslaughter but if the case is severe enough then perhaps for harassment, stalking, violent behavior, vandalism, depending on what this bully did. The punishment could not specifically for causing suicide by bullying but rather for the actions involved in it.
I think bullies may not know they could drive someone to suicide but they know they are hurting someone and they get pleasure from it, therefore they should be punished. If they aren't punished and treated for whatever issues they have that cause them to be so cruel then what is there to stop people from bullying to this level?
Beyond a doubt yes, infact, there should be a charge such as: "Mental Torment resulting in Suicide" applicable only to that exact situation.
[QUOTE=DrJenkins;34130371]Beyond a doubt yes, infact, there should be a charge such as: "Mental Torment resulting in Suicide" applicable only to that exact situation.[/QUOTE]
I don't know why half the people in this thread are assuming that being held accountable suddenly means charged with murder and left to rot.
I think they should be charged with something, ultimately their actions caused someone to take their own life.
It is kinda like a drunk driver who hits a car and kills someone. He didn't intend to kill anyone, but his actions resulting in such a tragic event.
However it needs to be proved that the bully was basically on this person ass every day and went completely out of their way to harass the person. Someone who decided to just be mean one day and make one comment shouldn't be punished.
No. It's a waste of time.
Because it's[B] impossible[/B] to prove whom or what ultimately was responsible for the suicide of a person.
I believe unless the bully says something that can be proven by text / video / sound that sparks the suicide, the bully should not be held accountable for his actions concerning the suicide. I also do not believe in witnesses in such a situation. It's been proven in psychology that people are often to remember something that did not happen if they were told or lead to believe that it did. If a bully said something in front of a crowd to a kid who killed himself a week later, those who heard the bully might replace what actually happened with what they've been asked to recall.
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