[QUOTE=Memnoth;31751794]First of all, I would like to define speech as an [b]art form[/b] by simply acknowledging the fact that anything [b]expressible[/b] can be expressed in almost an infinite [b]number of[/b] ways [b](deleted)[/b]. You can reach the same goal, no matter what choice of words you use in your sentences. After that, the task is up to the reader.
However[b],[/b] we follow grammatical and semantic rules, defining how our structural syntax [b]is[/b] laid out. Not following these rules [b](comma deleted)[/b] will result in misinterpretation[b], ('and' removed)[/b] followed by misunderstanding. This is a typical problem when people keep arguing about something that is fueled by misunderstanding [b](Misinterpreting fueled by misinterpretation?)[/b]. Someone once told me that I should avoid using big words to ease [b]('out' removed)[/b] the misunderstanding, and that language is made to communicate efficiently. Well, language constitutes a logical set of rules, failure to comprehend these rules and the deficit that includes a narrow vocabulary applies the burden on the individual with a narrow vocabulary [b](I have no idea what this sentence is trying to say so I'm not touching it)[/b].
Vocabulary, grammar, semantics. They are [b]several parts[/b] of the English language, failure to accept this will make you communicative dumber [b](Communicative dumber? What?)[/b].
I find it quite odd that people rather use the most simplistic ways of communicating without ever learning basic vocabulary [b](Here I was thinking the most simplistic ways of communicating would be the [i]basic[/i] ways)[/b].
You need to follow the rules of the language to be understood, don't slack. If everyone followed these rules, everyone [b]would[/b] understand everyone. We are modern humans now, there's no need to [b]reduce[/b] ourselves to cognitive dysfunction. Otherwise you might as well retreat to cavemen grunting.[/QUOTE]
If you're going to preach to others about grammar, spelling, and word usage, at least make sure you got yours correct to begin with.
Why's me's a so lost!.
i wonder what'd happen if someone told him that languages are accepted as dynamic and that nobody in the academic world outside of a few enclaves give a shit about language being "dumbed down".
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;31756104]You seem like some one between the ages of 13 and 16 who has just figured out that they can wow their friends by forming complex sentences. You try to use big words and convoluted sentence structure to get your point across, but pretty much everyone with a knack for the english language can see how flawed what you're doing is.
I used to think just like you, that being able to use big words in conversation was a sign of intelligence and that I was really smart when my friends had no idea what I was talking about.
Then I realized that the most elegant art is being able to explain something complicated to a 6 year old. You will learn to appreciate this too. Maybe you won't pick it up now, but in a few years you'l realize how much more fun it is to not have to explain things twice.
My point is, stop trying so hard to sound smart and instead try hard to be clear. Clarity is elegance.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=catbarf;31756247]If you're going to preach to others about grammar, spelling, and word usage, at least make sure you got yours correct to begin with.[/QUOTE]
i wish i could rate these posts moustache
I've found that smaller words have the most rhetorical effect.
English teachers will teach that you should use an expansive vocabulary that includes big words but really the most effective speech and writing doesn't need to rely on that, which is why they stop telling you that after like 9th grade.
You can moan and bitch about syntax, grammar, and following linguistic rules all you want, but if your writing doesn't flow well, nobody's going to want to read it. Specifically, the OP in this thread. It doesn't flow well at all. You can use all the big words you want but if you can't execute them well in the written form, you're not going to get anywhere. There's a difference between hiding behind jargon, and using it to further your point. In the end, your writing still has to be easily understood by whoever's reading it.
Being misunderstood because of slightly poor language is something I rarely see. Most of the time it's the tone, your attitude and body language that makes people misunderstand and not the lack of fancy words.
There's not much of that on the internet though. There's a way some people type (like all lowercase and no punctuation) and their nickname maybe. I like it though, I like some of the misunderstandings and whatnot cause most of the times it makes shit funny. I would never start arguments on the internet to begin with anyway.
[editline]16th August 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=blackberry82;31756752]You can moan and bitch about syntax, grammar, and following linguistic rules all you want, but if your writing doesn't flow well, nobody's going to want to read it. Specifically, the OP in this thread. It doesn't flow well at all. You can use all the big words you want but if you can't execute them well in the written form, you're not going to get anywhere. There's a difference between hiding behind jargon, and using it to further your point. In the end, your writing still has to be easily understood by whoever's reading it.[/QUOTE]
yeah it's like you're being too serious and boring as fuck
It's already been said, but yeah basically you're trying too hard.
god i have to PISS!!!
[editline]16th August 2011[/editline]
nevermind
Just wanted to point out that while trying to adhere to the rules for the sake of clarity seems like a good idea, the truth is that natural language is full of fringe cases where the rules can be interpreted in different ways and sentence structures that are ugly and unwieldly unless you're OK with breaking a few rules.
Beyond that, even if you follow the rules to the letter, misunderstandings come from many other sources. Recently, "I'll be at the pub at 9" was misinterpreted, because to me "the pub" is the "Shakespeare's" whereas the the author of the text it's the "Korrigan".
And with my ex, we obviously had huge communication issues which didn't help the other issues we failed to sort out, but it wasn't the fact that we spoke a hybrid of French and English, it's simply that our own wants, needs and ideas can twist a perfectly formulated idea around until no-one knew what the discussion was about.
Also, if you're smart enough to use language properly, you're smart enough to detect an abiguity in the other person's speech and ask for clarification.
(This coming from a Computer Sciences student passionate about formal languages and removing all possibility of ambiguity in them. Human speech isn't formal (in the math sense of the word)).
Language hipsters
Here's a protip, guys. People who type like this are usually (always) pseudo-intellectuals who think that dredging thesauruses gives them much needed credibility. What they don't realize is that explaining things simply and clearly to people requires much more grace and elegance than advancing linguistic development by leveraging prioritized sesquipedalian loquaciousness to rectify the plebeian verbosity deficit.
It isn't about using the biggest words. It's about using the right ones.
“Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words? He thinks I don't know the ten-dollar words. I know them all right. But there are older and simpler and better words, and those are the ones I use.” -Hemingway, in response to Faulkner calling his work small minded.
How the fuck is speaking colloquially considered a regression of the English language?
[QUOTE=Da Fat Cat v3;31751817]u fuecken nerd[/QUOTE]
You type in Geordie
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31773810]How the fuck is speaking colloquially considered a regression of the English language?[/QUOTE]
Colloquialisms inherently divide the language geographically. Over time, what starts as simple expressions or shorthand becomes a whole new language. It's how Spanish, French, and Italian all came from Latin- local dialects that slowly drifted due to a lack of overarching standard.
Surely the simplest, most efficient language ought to be preferred over a clunky, illogical language such as English.
Wow, your manner of speech is really pretentious.
[QUOTE=Memnoth;31754536]Well, the problem is, if everyone conformed to an individual self-constructed language, we would no longer be able to communicate. Dialects would spiral all out of control until new languages are reached.[/QUOTE]
The thing is, this would never happen because individuals generally do not make their own changes to a language or dialect, it's large groups of people that are linked in some way that make small changes to language over a long period of time. A modern example would be the modern generation of children and teens that essentially use the term "lol" in real life to mean "How humorous." That's all that happened, the internet has been with consumers since the 90s, and all we've got is a new word catching on, unofficially. There's also the fact that the basic function of language is to communicate, such that if someone was using some bizarre personal dialect that others couldn't understand, that dialect would die off because it served no purpose. Thirdly, you act like any deviation from strict grammatical rules of a language will immediately cause everyone to misunderstand you, which is simply not true. There are grammar rules, and then there are the general grammar rules everyone follows, these are very different. See: [url]http://grammar.about.com/od/basicsentencegrammar/a/grammarintro.htm[/url]
[quote]Descriptive grammar (definition #1) refers to the structure of a language as it is actually used by speakers and writers. Prescriptive grammar (definition #2) refers to the structure of a language as certain people think it should be used.[/quote]
tl;dr, OP needs to learn what descriptive grammar is, plus only mass amounts of people can significantly change a dialect or language.
I am grateful for all of your responses, they have been read, contemplated and ignored.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;31777375]Wow, your manner of speech is really pretentious.[/QUOTE]
I am diagnosed with high functioning autism. I have an uncontrollable obsession to have a passion for words, grammar and expression. It is my way to communicate.
[QUOTE=Memnoth;31787722]I am diagnosed with high functioning autism. I have an uncontrollable obsession to have a passion for words, grammar and expression. It is my way to communicate.[/QUOTE]
Okay have fun with your mental disorder
[QUOTE=XxTheAvengerxX;31788101]Okay have fun with your mental disorder[/QUOTE]
I'm trying to connect your comment with the pertinence of this thread. I found it to be an impossible task since you're not even near the relevance of the ongoing discussion.
[QUOTE=Memnoth;31787722]
I am diagnosed with high functioning autism. I have an uncontrollable obsession to have a passion for words, grammar and expression. It is my way to communicate.[/QUOTE]
So..you were saying that we should speak like autistic people?
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31788339]So..you were saying that we should speak like autistic people?[/QUOTE]
Not at all. I was defining a reason to the quoted statement to provide an explanation to his negative perspective of my way of communicating.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31788339]So..you were saying that we should speak like autistic people?[/QUOTE]
No, what he's saying is that his perceived pretentious irrationality of despising colloquial speaking is caused by a mental disorder which he claims does not allow him to be otherwise inclined.
(Translation: He's using his retardation as an excuse to be stuck up about shit)
OP, you don't sound clever or sophisticated, you sound like a pretentious dick.
"I find it quite odd that people rather use the most simplistic ways of communicating without ever learning basic vocabulary."
Setting aside the horrible way you formulated the sentence, and the misspells, you are making this sentence complicated for the sake of looking formal and/or educated. Stop it.
[QUOTE=StormHammer;31788476]OP, you don't sound clever or sophisticated, you sound like a pretentious dick.
"I find it quite odd that people rather use the most simplistic ways of communicating without ever learning basic vocabulary."
Setting aside the horrible way you formulated the sentence, and the misspells, you are making this sentence complicated for the sake of looking formal and/or educated. Stop it.[/QUOTE]
Again, English is my second language. But could you point out my errors in spelling and grammar rather than complain? This would be both more productive and relevant. I prioritize learning above all else.
I don't understand why people rather complain and insult in a discussion rather than providing help and productive comments. It just doesn't have relevance to the discussion, it's pointless. Can't people have a normal discussion without acting like five year old children?
[QUOTE=StormHammer;31788476]OP, you don't sound clever or sophisticated, you sound like a pretentious dick.
"I find it quite odd that people rather use the most simplistic ways of communicating without ever learning basic vocabulary."
Setting aside the horrible way you formulated the sentence, and the misspells, you are making this sentence complicated for the sake of looking formal and/or educated. Stop it.[/QUOTE]
He can't. He's blessed with autism.
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;31756104]You seem like some one between the ages of 13 and 16 who has just figured out that they can wow their friends by forming complex sentences. You try to use big words and convoluted sentence structure to get your point across, but pretty much everyone with a knack for the english language can see how flawed what you're doing is.
I used to think just like you, that being able to use big words in conversation was a sign of intelligence and that I was really smart when my friends had no idea what I was talking about.
Then I realized that the most elegant art is being able to explain something complicated to a 6 year old. You will learn to appreciate this too. Maybe you won't pick it up now, but in a few years you'l realize how much more fun it is to not have to explain things twice.
My point is, stop trying so hard to sound smart and instead try hard to be clear. Clarity is elegance.[/QUOTE]
I'm 20. Why do you think that more descriptive words are considered elitist? Are you saying that no one is responsible to learn language? Then what is your hypothesis on effective communication?
[QUOTE=Memnoth;31788912]I'm 20. Why do you think that more descriptive words are considered elitist? Are you saying that no one is responsible to learn language? Then what is your hypothesis on effective communication?[/QUOTE]
It's redundant. Using the fourth alternative word from a thesaurus in conversation even on the damn internet is pretentious and shows nothing about your knowledge of the English Language.
[QUOTE=Memnoth;31788912]I'm 20. Why do you think that more descriptive words are considered elitist? Are you saying that no one is responsible to learn language? Then what is your hypothesis on effective communication?[/QUOTE]
Language that isn't needlessly complicated or illogical.
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