• United States Presidential Election 2012 MEGATHREAD
    2,907 replies, posted
Well, a lot of people seriously believe the outcome in Ohio wasn't true to the vote in 2004...
[QUOTE=yawmwen;38335826]"white job applicants with criminal records have a better chance of being called back for an interview than black applicants without one, even when all the qualifications are the same?"[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=yawmwen;38335826]"black males with college degrees are almost twice as likely as their white male counterparts to be out of work?"[/QUOTE] Better safeguards against discriminatory hiring practices. [QUOTE=yawmwen;38335826]" the lightest-skinned immigrants to the United States make as much as 15 percent more than the darkest, even when the immigrants in question have the same level of education, experience and measured productivity?"[/QUOTE] This one is symptomatic of a whole bunch of problems, and can be alleviated by addressing many of them. [QUOTE=yawmwen;38335826]"to the effect that blacks are far more likely than whites to have their cars and persons searched after a traffic stop, even though whites, when searched, are more than four times as likely to have drugs or other illegal contraband on us?"[/QUOTE] Seriously? You don't see how poor practices by the police department could be addressed by the government? [QUOTE=yawmwen;38335826]through the legislative process? How can you write bills that address these issues? These are things that we need to fight as people, not wait for a racist government to solve for us.[/QUOTE] Political action is the system we developed to address issues as a society. Moreover, it's absolutely ridiculous for you to say that the Supreme Court doesn't play a central role in civil rights issues when it's been the foremost player in pretty much every civil rights issue in the last century. Segregation? Challenged all the way to the Supreme Court until it was declared illegal. Abortion? Challenged up to the Supreme Court until it was declared legal. Gay marriage? Activists are angling for an eventual Supreme Court ruling. It plays a hugely important part in determining what our rights are and who gets them. Lastly, if you really want to fight racism at a community level, you should start with your assumption that your perspectives on discrimination are equally as relevant as those of people who have actually experienced it their whole lives. That is presumptuous entitlement of the highest order.
[QUOTE=TH89;38336100]Better safeguards against discriminatory hiring practices. This one is symptomatic of a whole bunch of problems, and can be alleviated by addressing many of them. Seriously? You don't see how poor practices by the police department could be addressed by the government?[/quote] "We can fix racial problems by fixing them!" - TH89 Jesus, you sound like Romney with his "plan" to fix the economy. [quote]Political action is the system we developed to address issues as a society. Moreover, it's absolutely ridiculous for you to say that the Supreme Court doesn't play a central role in civil rights issues when it's been the foremost player in pretty much every civil rights issue in the last century. Segregation? Challenged all the way to the Supreme Court until it was declared illegal. [/quote] Yea, then they found legal ways to segregate people. [quote]Abortion? Challenged up to the Supreme Court until it was declared legal.[/quote] And then they found legal ways to restrict abortion. [quote] Lastly, if you really want to fight racism at a community level, you should start with your assumption that your perspectives on discrimination are equally as relevant as those of people who have actually experienced it their whole lives. That is presumptuous entitlement of the highest order.[/QUOTE] Ah I forgot that I wasn't a human being entitled to opinions. I won't let that fucking happen again. I guess us whites cannot be involved in fixing racism, we just have to watch.
yeah yawmwen, ever since the supreme court rulings, when was segregation legal and abortion illegal again?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;38335904]But that's what has to happen. Societal change cannot be dictated by a corrupt government, societal change can only be changed through the people themselves becoming disgusted with the idea. If you think that is unfeasible then you are simply lazy. We cannot wait on the government to fix our problems, we need to create our own destiny and our own society.[/QUOTE] I never said that people becoming disgusted with the idea of racism is unfeasible, I said that asking people to devote themselves to making people stop being racist (and implying that if they don't, then they are racist themselves) is not a reasonable expectation. If someone says something racist around me, I'd probably confront them, but I just don't have the time in the day or the access to a forum where my protests would achieve much to commit to some sort of personal action beyond what I already do (not much).
Going to vote Obama. I can't say he's my fav president but I think he deserves 4 more years and he's done some good stuff that I'd like to see more headway on. Also because HELL NO on Mitt. I'd be interested in seeing how many people vote for third parties like Ron Paul this year. He won't win of course, but I'd like to see more third party voting going on, it seems as if there was a larger interest in this election in them. I think it would be really interesting if Paul got a good chunk of popular votes, it'd be nice to think moderates or people who don't agree with how either of the two parties have handled stuff represent a large chunk of the voter population. I don't agree with pauls political ideaologies for the most part, but it was refreshing to see a politician like him run for office and appear to get decent headway. I think he'd make an excellent president and is the type of person that I want to see more support for, despite me not wanting in charge simply because extremo-libertarian views just wouldn't work in the modern world. Still, compare him to someone like Mitt who's an obvious corrupt snake oil salesman type guy, its a mockery of the conservative platform. I don't agree with conservative views on the most part but there are aspects to it I can appreciate. Someone like ron paul is what that party needs - I don't agree with his viewpoints but I think he's an actually respectable person and someone who is fit for office. It would be nice to view the republican party on "respectfully disagree" terms instead of "LMAO wow, what a complete fool, that manages to get votes entirely due to pandering to the religious and phobic south" terms. If I could have my dream candiditate I would probably vote for someone with the personality/drive/integrity/opinion of the political system as ron paul, with the social and economic platforms of a democrat, yet is willing to trim a lot of the fat/budget involved in the budget (such as, consoldating or getting rid of expensive programs that are good to get rid of [not stuff like the public school system or healthcare], cutting of the defense budget). Oh and I will love any presidency that gets rid of lobbyists, and has enough integrity to clean out other bullshit involved with law making, elections, etc.
-snip-
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;38336243]yeah yawmwen, ever since the supreme court rulings, when was segregation legal and abortion illegal again?[/QUOTE] If you don't believe segregation is alive and well then I dare you to take a brief tour of almost any city and the school districts within it. Instead of segregation through law, those in power segregate us through economic means. And abortion is restricted in many states through various means, whether through time limits(gun control style), lower funding for abortion providers, or certain limits depending on how far along the fetus is.
[QUOTE=KorJax;38336329]Going to vote Obama. I can't say he's my fav president but I think he deserves 4 more years and he's done some good stuff that I'd like to see more headway on. Also because HELL NO on Mitt. I'd be interested in seeing how many people vote for third parties like Ron Paul this year. He won't win of course, but I'd like to see more third party voting going on, it seems as if there was a larger interest in this election in them. I think it would be really interesting if Paul got a good chunk of popular votes, it'd be nice to think moderates or people who don't agree with how either of the two parties have handled stuff represent a large chunk of the voter population. I don't agree with pauls political ideaologies for the most part, but it was refreshing to see a politician like him run for office and appear to get decent headway. I think he'd make an excellent president and is the type of person that I want to see more support for, despite me not wanting in charge simply because extremo-libertarian views just wouldn't work in the modern world. If I could have my dream candiditate I would probably vote for someone with the personality/drive/integrity/opinion of the political system as ron paul, with the social and economic platforms of a democrat, yet is willing to trim a lot of the fat/budget involved in the budget (such as, consoldating or getting rid of expensive programs that are good to get rid of [not stuff like the public school system or healthcare], cutting of the defense budget). Oh and I will love any presidency that gets rid of lobbyists, and has enough integrity to clean out other bullshit involved with law making, elections, etc.[/QUOTE] Paul's on like a single state's ballot because sore loser laws prevent people who lose primaries from running under some other party.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;38336223]Yea, then they found legal ways to segregate people. And then they found legal ways to restrict abortion.[/QUOTE] Congratulations on your discovery that campaigning for better civil rights legislation is an ongoing process, I guess?
[QUOTE=Megafan;38336295]I never said that people becoming disgusted with the idea of racism is unfeasible, I said that asking people to devote themselves to making people stop being racist (and implying that if they don't, then they are racist themselves) is not a reasonable expectation. If someone says something racist around me, I'd probably confront them, but I just don't have the time in the day or the access to a forum where my protests would achieve much to commit to some sort of personal action beyond what I already do (not much).[/QUOTE] But that's what it takes. It takes us to be willing to confront racism in our daily lives. Once we begin to identify and eradicate racism in our lives, it ceases to have the same power and meaning it once had. Not everyone needs to become a professional revolutionary, a few of us just need to become a little more vocal about racism.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;38336403]But that's what it takes. It takes us to be willing to confront racism in our daily lives. Once we begin to identify and eradicate racism in our lives, it ceases to have the same power and meaning it once had. Not everyone needs to become a professional revolutionary, a few of us just need to become a little more vocal about racism.[/QUOTE] Er, okay? I don't think anyone was ever disputing that, so I'm not sure what your point is.
[QUOTE=TH89;38336377]Congratulations on your discovery that campaigning for better civil rights legislation is an ongoing process, I guess?[/QUOTE] But you can't simply legislate against economic segregation except through a rehaul of our economic system, something unfeasible when big business owns our government. That's why I say these things need to take the societal route versus government route. To expect a bought congress to "unbuy" itself is wasting your time. [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafan;38336409]Er, okay? I don't think anyone was ever disputing that, so I'm not sure what your point is.[/QUOTE] But through this means government legislation becomes redundant and unnecessary.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;38336403]Not everyone needs to become a professional revolutionary, a few of us just need to become a little more vocal about racism.[/QUOTE] Agreed, but unfortunately when many white people are confronted about their racism they get really butthurt and offended and start going on about how their opinions are being suppressed.
[QUOTE=TH89;38336444]Agreed, but unfortunately when many white people are confronted about their racism they get really butthurt and offended and start going on about how their opinions are being suppressed.[/QUOTE] I honestly think you are a bit confused TH89.
You're right, how could anyone contribute to racial stratification if they refer to people fighting racism as "we" and call the government racist? How careless of me.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;38334825]I disagree. Our major civil rights issues are issues that by their nature cannot be solved through the legal system. They are societal issues that cannot be legislated. There are some things that can be fixed through the courts like the institutional persecution of gays within the federal government or the restriction on gay marriage. However, how do you solve the disproportionate poverty among blacks through the courts? How do you solve the issue of sanctioned police brutality through the courts? [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] Neither are you.[/QUOTE] Everything starts with protests, you are right, but protests lead to cases like Brown vs Board of Education, etc. The Supreme Court sets precedents that encourage lawmakers to change and revise laws. Remember when the California Supreme Court invalidated Prop 8? That was cool too.
[QUOTE=TH89;38336530]You're right, how could anyone contribute to racial stratification if they refer to people fighting racism as "we" and call the government racist? How careless of me.[/QUOTE] I think it's interesting that someone who is supposedly against racial stratification could endorse a system of economics and government that greatly profits from racial stratification, myself.
You actually haven't explained how big business profits from having a permanent underclass of people who can't afford their products. What was that about?
[QUOTE=person11;38336533]Everything starts with protests, you are right, but protests lead to cases like Brown vs Board of Education, etc. The Supreme Court sets precedents that encourage lawmakers to change and revise laws. Remember when the California Supreme Court invalidated Prop 8? That was cool too.[/QUOTE] I think that's great when it happens. However, these things are brought about by shifts in societal attitudes. Government cannot actually bring about the change, they can only acknowledge the change, and sometimes even try to impede the change. That's why I don't put much bearing or weight on the supreme court or government as far as cultural progress goes. [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=TH89;38336583]You actually haven't explained how big business profits from having a permanent underclass of people who can't afford their products. What was that about?[/QUOTE] Does cheap labor and loyal consumerism need a whole lot of explanation? Is it hard to see how having an incredibly poor class is beneficial whenever a company wants to build a new office building or needs some extra people to scrub toilets?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;38336600]I think that's great when it happens. However, these things are brought about by shifts in societal attitudes. Government cannot actually bring about the change, they can only acknowledge the change, and sometimes even try to impede the change. That's why I don't put much bearing or weight on the supreme court or government as far as cultural progress goes.[/QUOTE] Changes in societal attitudes proliferate through government, though, which is pretty much how democracy is meant to work. In this case, more socially liberal attitudes are contributing to Obama's (probable) re-election, which in turn will lead to a more liberal Supreme Court bench which is less likely to overturn Roe v. Wade, rule against gay marriage, etc. [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;38336600]Does cheap labor and loyal consumerism need a whole lot of explanation? Is it hard to see how having an incredibly poor class is beneficial whenever a company wants to build a new office building or needs some extra people to scrub toilets?[/QUOTE] An underclass is definitively not a working class, though--it's a class plagued by drug use, crime, and chronic unemployment. It drives down property values. It's really not beneficial for corporate america OR for the government--the strain it puts on law enforcement and social safety nets sucks up government money (which they don't want) and makes it harder for them to convince voters that they're doing a good job. Yes, superficially there are ways that the major parties can put partisan spin on it, but overall it's definitely not a useful thing to have.
[url]http://www.270towin.com/simulation/[/url] anyone?
[QUOTE=TH89;38336648]Changes in societal attitudes proliferate through government, though, which is pretty much how democracy is meant to work. In this case, more socially liberal attitudes are contributing to Obama's (probable) re-election, which in turn will lead to a more liberal Supreme Court bench which is less likely to overturn Roe v. Wade, rule against gay marriage, etc.[/quote] Well if that were truly the case I would like to believe that we wouldn't be bombing civilians in Pakistan or letting people die due to lack of healthcare coverage. [quote]An underclass is definitively not a working class, though--it's a class plagued by drug use, crime, and chronic unemployment. It drives down property values. It's really not beneficial for corporate america OR for the government--the strain it puts on law enforcement and social safety nets sucks up government money (which they don't want) and makes it harder for them to convince voters that they're doing a good job. Yes, superficially there are ways that the major parties can put partisan spin on it, but overall it's definitely not a useful thing to have.[/QUOTE] Then we have to ask ourselves why there is an underclass in the first place. Why does it seem that Republicans are interested in expanding the underclass in favor of the rich? Why does it seem that Democrats greatly profit off of keeping people dependent on a horribly underfunded welfare system that basically keeps people alive and voting blue? Why does it seem that both parties are incredibly invested in racial tensions and division? You can either claim that the Democrats and Republicans are both incredibly incompetent, an unlikely scenario when you see how systematic the oppression seems to be, or you claim that these things are merely illusions that come from a cynical view of the world, which is a whole lot more likely, although I would claim that I am not completely cynical or jaded.
You know, your idea that people on welfare = democratic votes is largely untrue. The states with the biggest populations on welfare are mostly red states. A majority of those welfare recipients are poor white folks who vote Republican. As I said before, the conception of the Welfare Class being lazy single black moms has very little basis in reality. It's a Republican invention.
[QUOTE=TH89;38336924]You know, your idea that people on welfare = democratic votes is largely untrue. The states with the biggest populations on welfare are mostly red states. A majority of those welfare recipients are poor white folks who vote Republican. As I said before, the conception of the Welfare Class being lazy single black moms has very little basis in reality. It's a Republican invention.[/QUOTE] This depends on how you calculate the numbers. "Hill and other welfare supporters argue that numbers, and not erroneous stereotypes, tell the real story about public assistance clients: Some 61 percent of welfare recipients are White, while 33 percent are Black, according to 1990 Census Bureau statistics, the latest figures available."([url]http://theobamacrat.com/2012/01/05/welfare-recipients-which-race-gets-more-benefits/[/url]) That means blacks collect a disproportionate amount of welfare in the first place. And either way, it has a lot to do with the spin that is put on welfare in the first place. The idea that blacks benefit majorly from welfare is not simply a Republican narrative. Democrats benefit from the idea that blacks have most to lose(or gain) through welfare systems.
I'm ready for my TV being occupied late into the night tomorrow
I am going to bury my head in the sand until the election is over and then ask random bystanders on the street who won. That way if Obama wins I can skip home and if Romney wins I can play dramatic music whilst rushing past onlookers in an attempt to get home and save my loved ones from capitalism v:v:v
I plan to work out and do some martial arts after school and then go to the market and the buy a giant burrito and then go to the cheese store and wander around town doing as many things as I can before having to go home and watch the election unfold.
Me as a Swede is keeping a weary eye on this election
[QUOTE=Haxxer;38338109]Me as a Swede is keeping a weary eye on this election[/QUOTE] I clicked Romney on the poll, but really; I'm actually not gonna be voting this year. I have had no time to sit on my ass in front of the TV/computer and look up the pros & cons of each candidate or bullshit prop thats out there.
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