Bigoted Am I; A Discussion on Racism, Homosexuality, and Humor - General

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;30757105]But it's certainly not the most important issue.[/QUOTE] importance varies between you and someone else, which is exactly what TH89 is talking about as a white male racism is not nearly as heavily felt and stressed on you

[QUOTE=thisispain;30757243]as a [b]white male[/b] racism is not nearly as heavily felt and stressed on you[/QUOTE] ??? I'm Native American. But, you are right. Racism is not nearly as stressed on me as it would be on a Black or Hispanic person. [editline]28th June 2011[/editline] But I believe the main reason why lower class people are unable to advance is because of a system that breeds failure due to failure. It feeds on itself and makes advancement almost impossible.

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;30757266]??? I'm Native American. But, you are right. Racism is not nearly as stressed on me as it would be on a Black or Hispanic person. [/QUOTE] This is my gripe. You're incorrectly generalizing people who don't care about racism to be white. It's evidenced right here when you mistakenly thought he was white even though he's native American.

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;30757266]??? I'm Native American.[/QUOTE] do you identify in mainstream society as white or native american? because native americans live in a pretty segregated manner if they aren't completely integrated into white culture

I think a huge amount of racism is actually people using it against themselves. I went to a poor primarily hispanic school. When I say poor, I mean ridiculously poor. So poor that we didn't have tiling on the floors, it was just concrete. We didn't have fire retardant paneling on the ceilings, it was just pipes (and bats). The brick walls weren't painted and had cracks so big you could see into other rooms. The surrounding neighborhoods were poor. Single parents worked 3 jobs [i]and[/i] sold drugs, yet they could barely feed their kids and pay the bills. Hell, little kids were often the ones that sold drugs because they had to pull their own weight. Now, someone looking at this kind of society from the outside would think it has to do with the government or whoever being racist. It's the businesses fault for not hiring these young hispanic single parents blah blah blah. But that's not the case at all. Most of these people made no progress because they discriminated against themselves. Teachers did their best to encourage kids, local businesses held job fairs, pretty much everyone made an effort to help these people. But the common mindset amongst the people was "Oh, I'm just a poor mexican and there's no use because I'll always be poor." Or, "I'm not smart like white kids so I won't ever be somebody." The kids that kept their hopes up were the ones that made it into college easily and rode scholarships (for coming from a poor family) all the way to the bank. So it's not the Wells Fargo guys being racist or the government or whoever that causes these poverty centers. It's the impoverished people themselves. I'm not saying it's all poor people's faults for being poor, shit happens sometimes. Sometimes you get hurt and can't pay the hospital bill. Sometimes the car completely shits out and you can't fix it. Sometimes your house burns down and your insurance fucks you over. I'm not talking about things on an individual basis, I'm talking about things in the context of a collective. Those poor hispanic neighborhoods don't exist because the man is racist against hispanics, they exist because hispanics are racist against hispanics. They tell themselves and each other that they won't ever be successful, so they neglect school and have kids at the age of 16. So yes, racism exists these days, but I don't think it really exists in the form it did in the 60's and whatnot. People don't really discriminate against other races that hardcore anymore, it's more a case of races putting themselves down and digging holes for themselves. The mere fact that virtually anyone that actually makes an effort to get out (in a legit way, not by doing stupid shit like making mix tapes) can do so proves this. If anything, the education system (especially when it comes down to colleges) and job market beyond retail jobs and shit favor minorities. All the tools to help them are there, they just rarely accept them.

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;30757266]But I believe the main reason why lower class people are unable to advance is because of a system that breeds failure due to failure. It feeds on itself and makes advancement almost impossible.[/QUOTE] This is undoubtedly a big part of it. But it's not the only part. Say we take a white guy and make him have no money and put him in the ghetto. Things aren't looking good for him, but he already has several advantages. Employers will be more likely to hire him. Banks will be more willing to loan him money, and at lower interest rates. If he wants to buy or rent a place to live, real estate brokers will quote him lower prices. He probably has a white-sounding name that other white people approve of, instead of one that makes them go "what kind of crazy name is that? whoever named you that must be stupid. you're stupid." That's just the immediate benefits of not experiencing direct racism. So how about indirect racism? Black people have been segregated for a long, long time. Even after segregation was outlawed, neighborhoods remained divided across color lines. Police would beat and arrest black people for being in majority-white neighborhoods throughout the 70s and even 80s. And segregation has a heavy social toll--as explained in the Brown v. the Board of Education case, not being able to go to school with white people means not making social connections with people who end up in powerful positions, not learning social mores and manners of speaking and behavior that white people prefer, etc etc. Most of us who have been to college are probably acquainted with someone influential, whether it's a local city politician or a journalist or a professor or a business owner or whatever. People kept out of that social circle are lucky if they know someone who owns a small business. But racism isn't as bad as it used to be, and a lot of black communities were beginning to pick themselves up in the 1980s. Income levels and quality of life were on the rise. Then two things happened. The first was crack cocaine, which spread through black communities first and foremost. The government, who had no fondness for black people at that time, placed insanely high sentencing guidelines on crack--vastly higher than on powder cocaine, which is more expensive and mostly used by white people. Those sentencing guidelines are in place to this day. The second thing that happened was Ronald Reagan. His thinly-veiled-racist rants against "welfare queens" (black single mothers) inspired his voter base to help him gut social services, kicking poor people in the gut everywhere. And his administration's Urban Renewal plan bulldozed zillions of black neighborhoods, replacing them with high-rise apartments that many of the people who lived there couldn't afford, and making thousands of people homeless. So our white dude doesn't really have to worry about most of that. He also doesn't have to worry about disproportionate police harassment, a constant barrage of popular media that depicts him as the scariest type of person in America, or [url=http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2009/09/feel-entitled-to-touch-black-womens.html]experiencing stuff like this[/url]. Which isn't to say he's going to do great--he's still in a poor neighborhood, with presumably not much education, but he has a ton of factors on his side compared to a lot of his neighbors. Look at my dad--he came from a poor family, and pulled himself up by his bootstraps, as it were, but HIS dad came from a family of Southern aristocrats. He might not have money but he already knew all the mannerisms, manners, etc. of upper-class white people. He already knew how to behave to make them happy. In sociology I think that's called "cultural capital." Black people whose families have been poor since the Civil War don't have that cultural capital. (Not to say there aren't white people whose families have been poor for generations--there are, although they're less numerous, certainly proportionally). I think I lost my organization here but w/e you get the idea [editline]28th June 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=MaverickIB;30757728]Now, someone looking at this kind of society from the outside would think it has to do with the government or whoever being racist. It's the businesses fault for not hiring these young hispanic single parents blah blah blah. But that's not the case at all. Most of these people made no progress because they discriminated against themselves.[/QUOTE] See, this would be a credible argument if there wasn't tons of evidence of systemic discrimination on the part of teachers, employers, bank employees, real estate brokers, etc. It's hard to take all that and say "nope, that has no effect. it's all the poor colored people's fault." [QUOTE=MaverickIB;30757728]The mere fact that virtually anyone that actually makes an effort to get out (in a legit way, not by doing stupid shit like making mix tapes) can do so proves this.[/QUOTE] How is this a fact? Your whole argument rests on this rather outlandish and naive claim for which you provide no evidence at all--you just claim it's "proof" and that's all she wrote.

In Holland we learned to not give a shit. There's so many different cultures here we can all just sit around a table make n*gger and cracker jokes and nobody cares. Sad to see that people are still so butthurt over things like this. We are all humans. [editline]28th June 2011[/editline] And i mean at school there's generally at least 4 different cultures at a lunch table. [editline]28th June 2011[/editline] And i asterisked the n word because of possible butt-hurt conservatives.

[QUOTE=Scientist2;30759713]In Holland we learned to not give a shit. There's so many different cultures here we can all just sit around a table make n*gger and cracker jokes and nobody cares. Sad to see that people are still so butthurt over things like this. We are all humans. [editline]28th June 2011[/editline] And i mean at school there's generally at least 4 different cultures at a lunch table. [editline]28th June 2011[/editline] And i asterisked the n word because of possible butt-hurt conservatives.[/QUOTE] holy fuck i went to holland and dutch people are incredibly fucking racist i mean you have a fucking white dude in black face playing a dumb slave and singing coon songs as a fucking christmas holiday, so don't you give me this bullshit about not giving a shit

[QUOTE=thisispain;30759818]holy fuck i went to holland and dutch people are incredibly fucking racist i mean you have a fucking white dude in black face playing a dumb slave and singing coon songs as a fucking christmas holiday, so don't you give me this bullshit about not giving a shit[/QUOTE] What. [editline]28th June 2011[/editline] And you do realize that if that's true probably half the crowd is black like at a Jeff Dunham show where he takes out that grandpa and makes racist jokes and the crowd loves it? [editline]28th June 2011[/editline] Given that Holland, Like every single other country has racist mother fuckers who live in a hole and everybody hates. But these people are generally ignored anyway.

surprise, i know about sinterklass! and only like 2% of holland has black people, and they are treated like utter shit i lived in holland for quite a time

Virtually everyone is racist to some degree, and to say that you're not is absurd. As long as 'race' is connected to culture, upbringing and so on, people will continue to be racist, because that's the way human minds work. With that in mind, it's necessary to be cautious around things of importance. Do I think this because it is a rational and reasonable conclusion, or is it because subconsciously I am assigning perceived values to them? Is it because I'm familiar with their looks, and mannerisms? Back to OP, jokes are rather difficult territory, and I believe it depends on context. For example, "African Americans commit more crimes than white people per capita" is a true statement. However, it's harmful to say that to anyone who might infer that it means African Americans possess some innate criminality (even though virtually all are mixed race). Likewise, racist jokes may be permissible in certain contexts, but rarely, and it's usually best to err on the side of caution. Why would conservatives be concerned about the word 'nigger'? Pissed off about black people trying to reclaim it, or?

That's not a racist march it's just tradition and i don't know a black person who has problems with it. Besides, The story behind it is that they are black because they have to climb through the chimney which obviously is full of that black stuff which they get on their faces. [editline]28th June 2011[/editline] It's not like some propaganda for children stating black people are only on the world to work for some rich white dude and bring other children presents.

[QUOTE=Contag;30760114]Virtually everyone is racist to some degree, and to say that you're not is absurd. As long as 'race' is connected to culture, upbringing and so on, people will continue to be racist, because that's the way human minds work.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say everyone is racist. Whilst most people will have preconceptions and prejuduices ingrained through social conditioning anyone who makes a conscious effort to overcome these prejudices is arguably not a racist. And racism is not something natural or part of the human mind, it was created with a purpose - to condone or justify oppression and power.

[QUOTE=James*;30762595]I wouldn't say everyone is racist. Whilst most people will have preconceptions and prejuduices ingrained through social conditioning anyone who makes a conscious effort to overcome these prejudices is arguably not a racist. And racism is not something natural or part of the human mind, it was created with a purpose - to condone or justify oppression and power.[/QUOTE] Racism is unarguably a creation of the human mind. People love to associate things together, even if it is not necessarily true. The brains likes to make things easier that way.

It's not the joke that's racist, it's the intention behind it. If you're making racist jokes just for laughs and you're not trying to irritate anyone with it, then it's mostly ok (though it can be in bad taste). If you're making a racist joke because you genuinely feel that the race in question is inferior to yours and you want to express your hatred towards them, then you are just another racist asshole. Most racists hide behind the first case, and there's not much you can do about them. You learn to live with them I guess.

Any joke of any caliber tooled at any specific group is not bigoted in any way. Anyone who attempts to stymie an individuals freedom to say something on the grounds that it offends them is a worse bigot than the joker for having restricted someone's speech based on them not being part of that group.

Yeah, racist jokes aren't funny. Let me tell you a funny joke instead. Women's rights. :v:

[QUOTE=thisispain;30760005]surprise, i know about sinterklass! and only like 2% of holland has black people, and they are treated like utter shit i lived in holland for quite a time[/QUOTE] It's Sinterklaas and I honestly have no idea if you're being serious or not.

On the topic of racism and how everyone thinks everything is racist [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZCS5I80X-8&feature=related[/media] Here george carlin is saying that the word "nigger" isn't racist and I totally agree with him, the thing I hate though is when you say the word "nigger" everyone is quick to say "don't say that that's racist" however other words that were preciously used to insult groups of people are now used in everyday language, for example the word "fag" is no longer used to describe gay people but rather almost any action some one does "he runs like a fag" "you're such a fag" these are hardly ever used to demoralise gay people, so I ask you? why not black people. It seems that the OP was banned for a confusion in context, he uses racist jokes as humour and the mod immediately assumed that just because he makes racist jokes he hates black people and is therefore racist. Back to Carlin, George says that it's only racist when it's used in the context i.e. to discriminate / mock black people Fat jokes are fine Your mother jokes -although are moslty horribly executed- are fine Religion jokes are fine Hair colour jokes are fine women jokes are fine (even my mum is fine with it) yet when you mock a black person the shit hits the fan.

[QUOTE=Goodthief;30763722]On the topic of racism and how everyone thinks everything is racist [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZCS5I80X-8&feature=related[/media] Here george carlin is saying that the word "nigger" isn't racist and I totally agree with him, the thing I hate though is when you say the word "nigger" everyone is quick to say "don't say that that's racist" however other words that were preciously used to insult groups of people are now used in everyday language, for example the word "fag" is no longer used to describe gay people but rather almost any action some one does "he runs like a fag" "you're such a fag" these are hardly ever used to demoralise gay people, so I ask you? why not black people. It seems that the OP was banned for a confusion in context, he uses racist jokes as humour and the mod immediately assumed that just because he makes racist jokes he hates black people and is therefore racist. Back to Carlin, George says that it's only racist when it's used in the context i.e. to discriminate / mock black people Fat jokes are fine Your mother jokes -although are moslty horribly executed- are fine Religion jokes are fine Hair colour jokes are fine women jokes are fine (even my mum is fine with it) yet when you mock a black person the shit hits the fan.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say fat, religion and women jokes are fine, they can cause shitstorms too.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;30763751]I wouldn't say fat, religion and women jokes are fine, they can cause shitstorms too.[/QUOTE] not as much as black jokes I have never had a problem with other jokes, everyone takes them lightly but even uttering a black joke near anyone makes it look like i'm deliberately spiting them

Because the whites ripped off the blacks for a long time and now everyone is supposed to feel bad.

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;30763229]Racism is unarguably a creation of the human mind. People love to associate things together, even if it is not necessarily true. The brains likes to make things easier that way.[/QUOTE] So are there studies that support this?

[QUOTE=James*;30764403]So are there studies that support this?[/QUOTE] No, but it's very common fact that: 1. Different is scary 2. Your mind has a habit of associate actions with different things It's animal instinct. If an animal saw a poisonous butterfly, he wouldn't eat it because he knows the butterfly will poison him. If he sees a squirrel, he'll eat it, because he knows the squirrel will feed him. [QUOTE=James*;30764403]So are there studies that support this?[/QUOTE] No, but it's very common fact that: 1. Different is scary 2. Your mind has a habit of associate actions with different things It's animal instinct. If an animal saw a poisonous butterfly, he wouldn't eat it because he knows the butterfly will poison him. If he sees a squirrel, he'll eat it, because he knows the squirrel will feed him. [quote]He also doesn't have to worry about disproportionate police harassment, a constant barrage of popular media that depicts him as the scariest type of person in America, or experiencing stuff like this.[/quote] I understand how she's mad at the "black women are bitches" part, but I think she jumped the gun on yelling "racism" when someone wanted to touch her hair. Although she had ulterior motives shown when she made the inflammatory comments, I really do think immediately saying "THEY THINK THEY ARE SUPERIOR" when someone wants to touch your hair is a tad brash. You can't exactly quantify racism like that.

If observing stereotypes makes me racist, then I am a flaming racist. This all sounds like a big semantics battle where people try to associate 'bad words' with understandable behavior. I have a friend who I had way back in elementary school. He's black, his father was arrested for stealing a television in a red pickup truck, he was stabbed to death in Seattle (this isn't meant to be funny by the way, he had a harsh upbringing). He has become affiliated with 'gangs' in Seattle and was caught with a firearm by local police. He at one point had taken his mother's car out for a drive before he even had any sort of Driver's License. He's been in all sorts of trouble. The stereotype is that it's typical nigger behavior, and yes, I'm using the word 'nigger' to associate with the trashy gang African Americans who are generally a plague on society. This is not something that is a direct effect of being black. It's merely a product of upbringing, influence, and social roles. It can't be denied that this type of behavior is commonly associated with African Americans, but the qualm doesn't rest with the race itself, rather the stereotype that undoubtedly occurs. If by hating the stereotype, and observing it being commonly associated with one or more races in turn makes me racist, then I am a racist, and am not ashamed of the title. African Americans are perfectly functional members of society with no reason to believe they cannot be upstanding citizens just like anyone of any other race. The real qualm is with niggers, the 'gangster' culture trash who speak fractured English and think committing crimes is 'cool'. I don't use the term 'nigger' in public or in normal conversation obviously, rather I only use it when the meaning I associate with the term is understood, but just as I said, I find the word properly associated with the stereotype and not the race itself.

[QUOTE=Scientist2;30759713]In Holland we learned to not give a shit. There's so many different cultures here we can all just sit around a table make n*gger and cracker jokes and nobody cares. Sad to see that people are still so butthurt over things like this. We are all humans. [editline]28th June 2011[/editline] And i mean at school there's generally at least 4 different cultures at a lunch table. [editline]28th June 2011[/editline] And i asterisked the n word because of possible butt-hurt conservatives.[/QUOTE] The Netherlands's Lower Parliament has effectively just banned Kosher and Halal meats based on "Animal Welfare". Forcing a religious group to go against their customs if they want to eat meat is somekind of racial suppression in my eyes.

[QUOTE=Mort and Charon;30765657]The Netherlands's Lower Parliament has effectively just banned Kosher and Halal meats based on "Animal Welfare". Forcing a religious group to go against their customs if they want to eat meat is somekind of racial suppression in my eyes.[/QUOTE] The kosher and halal methods are sort of cruel, not to mention the fact that religions are fucking useless. Also religion != race.

[QUOTE=Goodthief;30763722]On the topic of racism and how everyone thinks everything is racist [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZCS5I80X-8&feature=related[/media] Here george carlin is saying that the word "nigger" isn't racist and I totally agree with him, the thing I hate though is when you say the word "nigger" everyone is quick to say "don't say that that's racist" however other words that were preciously used to insult groups of people are now used in everyday language, for example the word "fag" is no longer used to describe gay people but rather almost any action some one does "he runs like a fag" "you're such a fag" these are hardly ever used to demoralise gay people, so I ask you? why not black people. It seems that the OP was banned for a confusion in context, he uses racist jokes as humour and the mod immediately assumed that just because he makes racist jokes he hates black people and is therefore racist. Back to Carlin, George says that it's only racist when it's used in the context i.e. to discriminate / mock black people Fat jokes are fine Your mother jokes -although are moslty horribly executed- are fine Religion jokes are fine Hair colour jokes are fine women jokes are fine (even my mum is fine with it) yet when you mock a black person the shit hits the fan.[/QUOTE] You're right, nigger isn't racist, but it's a offensive term constantly thrown at an oppressed race and it's in poor taste to use it. I don't really get your statement about "fag" not describing gay people. It's still a derogatory term referring to gays. Well, this might be new to you, but do you also realize that some people are also offended by fat jokes, "yo mama" jokes, religion jokes, blonde jokes, and sexist jokes?

(replying to sink) Not really, yes it is more cruel than them being stunned, but it isn't like they are being tortured for minutes, its a few seconds. Western societies would have used the same methods 30/40 years ago. And back on the topic of racist jokes/racism, it seems that in the UK or in my area atleast, that racism towards people of an Indian sub continent background is bigger than towards black people.

[QUOTE=sink257;30765722]The kosher and halal methods are sort of cruel, not to mention the fact that religions are fucking useless. Also religion != race.[/QUOTE] Even though you find them useless, you don't have to remove them. Especially if those customs don't harm you at all.