• Moringa The Miracle Plant
    82 replies, posted
Unfortunately Mr. Zenreon, the source you quoted here: [url]http://www.edlagman.com/moringa/moringa-fresh-leaf-vs-dried-leaf.pdf[/url] Is dubious when I go to the rest of the site: [url]http://www.edlagman.com/moringa/moringa-health-benefits.htm[/url] [quote]Moringa is rich in Vitamin A. It contains four times more Vitamin A or beta-carotene than carrots. Hence, it is a weapon against blindness. It is also a rich source of Vitamin C many times more than oranges.[/quote] For some reason the site doesn't even bother to read the source. For some reason it also appears to be trying to flog you them as well. [quote]Moringa is one of the richest sources of antioxidants, with high contents of vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin E and bioflavonoid. Active oxygen radicals steal electrons from normal, healthy biological molecules. This electron theft by active oxygen oxidizes tissue and can cause disease. [/quote] What the fuck? Also when checking this paper: [url]http://www.edlagman.com/moringa/moringa-fresh-leaf-vs-dried-leaf.pdf[/url] This was the only thing approximating a source of information: [quote]© 2006-2008 Dolcas Biotech LLC, All Rights Reserve[/quote] Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't these papers tend to cite sources from where they got this information? This paper isn't exactly a scientific paper and it doesn't say "this is how we found out", it just says "this is what it is". However, I went to the website to see if Dolcas could give me the real deal and the lowdown on this useful plant. [url]http://www.dolcas-biotech.com/[/url] Interestingly enough it has a page on Moringa(n) [sic]. [quote]Coming soon! Page is Under Construction.[/quote] Well bugger, maybe I am being silly- [quote][b]The contents on this website have not been evaluated by the FDA and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.[/b] The information provided on this site is for informational purposes only. You should consult with a healthcare professional before starting any diet, exercise or supplementation program.[/quote] Hang on. Not only does this (shifty) website result in a dead end for finding the source to that information, but the FDA hasn't looked into their stuff at all? Isn't this rather bad because now [b]that[/b] new source you brought up is only sourced from a dubious, unregulated website, which isn't even fucking finished, but has no kind of official backing whatsoever?
That FDA label is on everything, doesn't mean anything. But, it's just some damn vitamins, I don't know what you guys think is so special about this.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;41939104]That FDA label is on everything, doesn't mean anything. But, it's just some damn vitamins, I don't know what you guys think is so special about this.[/QUOTE] The FDA exists to make sure that when you consume something, that the food doesn't harm you, and that the claims made by the manufacturer are true. [url]http://www.fda.gov/[/url] [url]http://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformation/Legislation/default.htm[/url] [quote]Today, the FDA regulates $1 trillion worth of products a year. It ensures the safety of all food except for meat, poultry and some egg products; ensures the safety and effectiveness of all drugs, biological products (including blood, vaccines and tissues for transplantation), medical devices, and animal drugs and feed; and makes sure that cosmetics and medical and consumer products that emit radiation do no harm.[/quote] Basically if a company isn't regulated by the FDA, that means that the products claims are usually unverified (at best), or that it is actually damaging to health.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41939193]The FDA exists to make sure that when you consume something, that the food doesn't harm you, and that the claims made by the manufacturer are true. [url]http://www.fda.gov/[/url] [url]http://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformation/Legislation/default.htm[/url] Basically if a company isn't regulated by the FDA, that means that the products claims are usually unverified (at best), or that it is actually damaging to health.[/QUOTE] But trees and plants are no company. Do they test these too?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41939193]The FDA exists to make sure that when you consume something, that the food doesn't harm you, and that the claims made by the manufacturer are true. [url]http://www.fda.gov/[/url] [url]http://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformation/Legislation/default.htm[/url] Basically if a company isn't regulated by the FDA, that means that the products claims are usually unverified (at best), or that it is actually damaging to health.[/QUOTE] No, that label is on most supplements. edit: maybe not most, but on quite a few
[QUOTE=SwizzChees;41939299]But trees and plants are no company. Do they test these too?[/QUOTE] When a company sells something, usually you want to know that the product being sold is safe for consumption and that the claims of the manufacturer are verified. All of these nutritional claims about Moringa so far by the OP are exaggerated, and the most reliable source (The Wikipedia one) gives substantially lower figures.
what an ugly tree
I just saw some chia miracle seed shit on facebook. The miracles are attacking.
What does it taste like?
Im just here to eat my leafy greens, stop fighting
Sobotnik, I understand that you have found a flaw in his presentation of this plant, but you can criticize his points without swearing all the time or dramaticizing your posts with "JESUS CHRIST". As for the plant, try it if you can afford to and you're interested, if not then don't. The thread doesn't need to get full of angry posts about the nutritional value of a tree.
[QUOTE=Ricool06;41949248]Sobotnik, I understand that you have found a flaw in his presentation of this plant, but you can criticize his points without swearing all the time or dramaticizing your posts with "JESUS CHRIST". As for the plant, try it if you can afford to and you're interested, if not then don't. The thread doesn't need to get full of angry posts about the nutritional value of a tree.[/QUOTE] Sobotnik's neckbeard is fueled by his internet rage.
[QUOTE=reedbo;41953345]Sobotnik's neckbeard is fueled by his internet rage.[/QUOTE] Stuff like this doesn't help either.
did you guys know that carrots don't even help your vision. what a bunch of bull puckey
You know you can argue a point without being an asshole about it right
[QUOTE=RearAdmiral;41956048]You know you can argue a point without being an asshole about it right[/QUOTE] your avatar scares me
[QUOTE=Ricool06;41949248]Sobotnik, I understand that you have found a flaw in his presentation of this plant, but you can criticize his points without swearing all the time or dramaticizing your posts with "JESUS CHRIST". As for the plant, try it if you can afford to and you're interested, if not then don't. The thread doesn't need to get full of angry posts about the nutritional value of a tree.[/QUOTE] You know that by focusing on that aspect you're diminishing the fact that he followed up each and every source to prove the claims are bullshit? It's not A flaw, it's that the entire thing is bad since it's built on false or unverifiable evidence. This thread is made to talk about the nutritional value of the true, it's literally it's only purpose. He's doing that. While his style leaves something to be desired I think he's perfectly fine in his crusade against bullshit spewing pseudo science and false facts.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41935450]No, I'm not denying that it's a useful plant. I'm calling bullshit on your exaggeration of its benefits and reliance on shit sources. [img]http://www.themoringa.com/images/Newcompering.jpg[/img] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moringa_oleifera#Leaves[/url] (Common food to left, Morgina to the right) Shit, it's actually identical. How did the figure inflate by a factor of 7? Holy shit did you just fuck up? Carrots have over 20 times as much vitamin A. Jesus Christ, milk contains nearly twice as much calcium. And Bananas have slightly more potassium as well. Oh finally, one that's showing a clear winner. Well, minus the fact it exaggerated that they contain double the protein rather than "slightly more". FUCK.[/QUOTE] Well If I take the fruit numbers from that post, and compare them to the moringa numbers you provided from this post; [QUOTE=Sobotnik;41936150][img]http://i.imgur.com/Nnov68x.png[/img] You're better off eating oranges and carrots. Earlier you were claiming such bullshit that the plant had much more of those vitamins than carrots and oranges.[/QUOTE] We get: [I][U]100g = 1 portion (port.)[/U][/I] Vitamin C/ Oranges: 220mg (Fresh Moringa) / 52mg (Oranges) = 4.2 Orange Portions / 100g of Fresh Moringa Calcium / Milk: 2003mg (Powdered Moringa) / 300mg (Milk) = 6.7 Milk Portions / 100g of Dried Moringa Iron / Spinach: 28.2mg (Powdered Moringa) / 1.14mg (Spinach) = 24.7 Spinach Portions / 100g Dried Moringa Protein / Yogurt: 27.1g (Powdered Moringa) / 8g (Yogurt) = 3.4 Yogurt Portions / 100g Dried Moringa Potassium / Banana: 1324mg (Powdered Moringa) / 358mg (Banana) = 3.7 Banana Portions / 100g Dried Moringa So all in all Dried Moringa is [B]6.7x better than milk[/B] for calcium, [B]24.7x better than spinach[/B] for iron, [B]3.4x better than Yogurt[/B] for protein, and [B]3.7x better than a banana[/B] for potassium. Dried Moringa is only .6 of an orange for Vitamin C, but [B]Fresh Moringa is 4.2x better than an orange[/B]. As for carrots [B]100g of Powdered Moringa is only equivalent to 90 grams of carrots[/B] in terms of Vitamin A. I'm sorry that random image I found wasn't dead on but these figures should be. I think 100grams of this powder is more nutritious than most anything you can name me that grows naturally on the land. Most of the numbers in my original OP were not that far off, some were lower, but some were higher, but not by much. Checkmate Sobotnik
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;41960229]Well If I take the fruit numbers from that post, and compare them to the moringa numbers you provided from this post; We get: [I][U]100g = 1 portion (port.)[/U][/I] Vitamin C/ Oranges: 220mg (Fresh Moringa) / 52mg (Oranges) = 4.2 Orange Portions / 100g of Fresh Moringa Calcium / Milk: 2003mg (Powdered Moringa) / 300mg (Milk) = 6.7 Milk Portions / 100g of Dried Moringa Iron / Spinach: 28.2mg (Powdered Moringa) / 1.14mg (Spinach) = 24.7 Spinach Portions / 100g Dried Moringa Protein / Yogurt: 27.1g (Powdered Moringa) / 8g (Yogurt) = 3.4 Yogurt Portions / 100g Dried Moringa Potassium / Banana: 1324mg (Powdered Moringa) / 358mg (Banana) = 3.7 Banana Portions / 100g Dried Moringa So all in all Dried Moringa is [B]6.7x better than milk[/B] for calcium, [B]24.7x better than spinach[/B] for iron, [B]3.4x better than Yogurt[/B] for protein, and [B]3.7x better than a banana[/B] for potassium. Dried Moringa is only .6 of an orange for Vitamin C, but [B]Fresh Moringa is 4.2x better than an orange[/B]. As for carrots [B]100g of Powdered Moringa is only equivalent to 90 grams of carrots[/B] in terms of Vitamin A. I'm sorry that random image I found wasn't dead on but these figures should be. I think 100grams of this powder is more nutritious than most anything you can name me that grows naturally on the land. Most of the numbers in my original OP were not that far off, some were lower, but some were higher, but not by much. Checkmate Sobotnik[/QUOTE] I looked at that source (the one which seemed like it was initially credible). You didn't see the earlier post I had on the subject, so let me simplify it for you. [img]http://i.imgur.com/GptKjN8.png[/img] That is the organisation which produced this paper, and obviously had to have gotten the figures from somewhere. [img]http://i.imgur.com/V4pRKvl.png[/img] This is the organisations website. Notice the disclaimer at the bottom which literally states that they are not an authority on medical knowledge, that the content on their website is wholly unregulated by the FDA (which was introduced to make sure that companies don't sell you radioactive facecream and claim it cures cancer), and that the content on the website is unverified to the point that you have to actually consult somebody like a dietitian or a doctor, who actually knows what they are talking about. If this thing is of utmost importance (and yes international organizations are advocating it to fight malnutrition but they aren't telling people in developed countries with access to food to use it), then why aren't schools adopting it in school meals? Why aren't doctors telling us to use it? Instead we get told "eat bananas, eat oranges, broccoli, potatoes, carrots". The reason that Moringa is being used for people in poverty is because they are literally in poverty. They can't grow oranges, bananas or carrots. The climate might not be suitable, they might not have proper irrigation, the crops do not last long, etc. This plant is being grown because it is hardy, well adapted to dry and hot climates, and gives enough nutrition to a subsistence farmer that he can survive. Much later, he doesn't depend on a single crop, once conditions have improved. This crop is a fallback, not a dependable source of nutrition that can replace all others. It is a falsehood to say "use this instead of superior existing alternatives". If you want vitamin C, eat oranges. Now, I decided to check where this website has been keeping their studies and sources, their references and all sorts of information that could perhaps tell me if your claims can be verified. [img]http://i.imgur.com/oqnw94k.png[/img] You have nothing. The source comes to a dead end. Where is your evidence that this plant does what you says it does?
thread music as of now: [video=youtube;WHhMH3__74M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHhMH3__74M[/video]
I used to drink a drink made from this every morning. My parents got it and it woke me up every morning. It was basically the same as coffee for me though, nothing special
How about this one? [url]http://formad-environnement.org/Yang_ghana_2006.pdf[/url]
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;41964566]How about this one? [url]http://formad-environnement.org/Yang_ghana_2006.pdf[/url][/QUOTE] Ok, can you pull the information out of that and make a chart for this thread just so I can see a side by side comparison with other common foods? Plus this quote here isn't exactly promising for you: [quote]AVRDC Regional Center in Africa includes Moringa seeds [b]with other African indigenous vegetable seeds such as amaranth, nightshades, cowpea, okra, African eggplant, crotolaria, corchorus in Nutrition Seed Kit for gardening.[/b][/quote] Notice how it mentions a whole plethora of other plants? That is because on it's own this plant cannot fulfill all of your needs. [quote]One teaspoon of Moringa is enough to satisfy most of your Calcium, Iron, potassium, Vitamin C, A, and E, for the day.[/quote] Your OP is still full of factually incorrect information. Literally all of the quotes you have given me for Moringa is 100 grams of it. The dried form (which in some ways is more nutritious), a single teaspoon of it cannot cover those needs. You would have to eat 100 grams of it, not a teaspoon. Fix your OP. A teaspoon will not cover your nutritional needs. Your picture is from a broken and unreliable source. The website with the index of "studies" is a crank site with the same problems. Get rid of that index. [quote]Having a couple of trees on your property can give you a cheap way to make sure you and your loved ones are getting all the nutrition they need.[/quote] Quick question, are you growing these plants yourself? Are you consuming the leaves? Plus you said the plant is from Africa. It isn't. Your ignorance actually omits that the plant comes from India. Also from all of the other sites so far, I discovered a nifty new term: [url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quack_Miranda_warning[/url]
So eating Moringa is a great source of an average dose of vitamins for my daily health? Yes or no?
[QUOTE=BrickMan300;41967550]So eating Moringa is a great source of an average dose of vitamins for my daily health? Yes or no?[/QUOTE] No, mediocre. Have a proper balanced diet with a good selection of multiple foods. If you feel like your diet isn't working out, speak to somebody in a position of medical authority. You only really need supplements if you have a severe deficiency (which is rare in western diets). I myself only take a single supplement which is melatonin, for I have a melatonin deficiency.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41968066]No, mediocre. Have a proper balanced diet with a good selection of multiple foods. If you feel like your diet isn't working out, speak to somebody in a position of medical authority. You only really need supplements if you have a severe deficiency (which is rare in western diets). I myself only take a single supplement which is melatonin, for I have a melatonin deficiency.[/QUOTE] You're wrong Sobotnik, all you've done is come in here and nay-say'd everything as untrustworthy and snake-oil. You can't seem to understand that anyone who recommends a plant that doesn't have a medical license is required to state a disclaimer. Once I use your own numbers you change it up again. Moringa is nutritious, and can work very viably as a supplement, I don't know where you get off being hoity toity all up on your western pedestle. For the record, yeah I am growing the plant. There isn't even a single page on the internet where someone 'debunks' Moringa, otherwise I'm sure you would have plastered rational wiki links to it all over here. You are attacking it because I couldn't find the right table of nutritional values, so now you are pretending like eating all the apples and oranges seperately is unquestionably better than a single portion of the powder. [editline]25th August 2013[/editline] Also mediocre means average....
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;41969883]You're wrong Sobotnik, all you've done is come in here and nay-say'd everything as untrustworthy and snake-oil. You can't seem to understand that anyone who recommends a plant that doesn't have a medical license is required to state a disclaimer. Once I use your own numbers you change it up again. Moringa is nutritious, and can work very viably as a supplement, I don't know where you get off being hoity toity all up on your western pedestle. For the record, yeah I am growing the plant. There isn't even a single page on the internet where someone 'debunks' Moringa, otherwise I'm sure you would have plastered rational wiki links to it all over here. You are attacking it because I couldn't find the right table of nutritional values, so now you are pretending like eating all the apples and oranges seperately is unquestionably better than a single portion of the powder. [editline]25th August 2013[/editline] Also mediocre means average....[/QUOTE] [quote]Ok, can you pull the information out of that and make a chart for this thread just so I can see a side by side comparison with other common foods?[/quote] I'd like to see this happen.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41970339]I'd like to see this happen.[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/rli72a.png[/IMG] Ahem. Well if we take the data for common fruit from all-mighty wikipedia, and compare it with the above data from the chart, and temper that with the further extrapolation on the Oleifera variety; [IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/2ce6zoz.png[/IMG] we get: [code] 100g Fresh Weight -> 22g +- 1.6g Dried Food Vitamin C Calcium Iron Protein Vitamin E Beta Carotene Moringa 257mg 454mg 6.7mg 6.9g 16.7mg 13.9mg 100g Wet Moringa *1166mg 2061mg 30mg 31g 76mg 63.1mg 100g Dry Oranges 53.2mg 40mg .1mg .9g .2mg N/A 100g Milk N/A 113mg N/A 9g N/A N/A 100g Spinach 28mg 99mg 2.7mg 2.9g 2mg 5.6mg 100g Carrots 5.9mg 33mg .3mg .9mg .7mg 8.1mg Almonds N/A 264mg 3.7mg 21g 26mg 1 μg *subject to some reduction due to cooking [/code] Sources for Common foods: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(fruit)#Nutritional_value"]Oranges [/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk#Nutritional_value"]Milk [/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinach#Nutrition"]Spinach [/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrot#Nutrition"]Carrots [/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond#Nutrition"]Almonds [/url] In conclusion: I am not doing the "How many milks in a Moringa?" thing again, use your head and see for yourself that the values easily trump even a combination of fruits. Sobotnik, you may now commence to search for something to attack my character with.
[QUOTE=doomkiwi;41959521]You know that by focusing on that aspect you're diminishing the fact that he followed up each and every source to prove the claims are bullshit? It's not A flaw, it's that the entire thing is bad since it's built on false or unverifiable evidence. This thread is made to talk about the nutritional value of the true, it's literally it's only purpose. He's doing that. While his style leaves something to be desired I think he's perfectly fine in his crusade against bullshit spewing pseudo science and false facts.[/QUOTE] The only diminishing factor of Sobotnik's argument is his unnecessarily vulgar swearing and hostility in his posts. I'm sure more people would feel like they would want to be a part of the discussion were it not for this. There are a portion of facepunch members who seem to take a debate to a personal level and add hostility as a result. And that damages their ability to forward their ideas in a persuasive manner. It is why a lot of people say that a debate about the topic of a thread is not necessary, but simply 'derailing' or 'shitting up the thread'. There is a problem with a community of people when they cannot disagree on a subject without feeling attacked.
dude your magical moringa plant isn't going to solve any nutritional problems any time soon kay
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