• Firearms VI - Mosin McNuggets and Tokarev Tartare
    10,000 replies, posted
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;36052239]but a bolt-action .308 will set you back a lot more[/QUOTE] .308 is the most popular caliber in Finland, if I remember right.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;36052424]why would you want to put a modern sight on a rifle built in the 1930's?[/QUOTE] I wouldn't. Because there's no place for such. [sp]Also by modern sight I mean a new scope with an universal mount[/sp]
[QUOTE=ForestRaptor;36052463]I wouldn't. Because there's no place for such. [sp]Also by modern sight I mean a new scope with an universal mount[/sp][/QUOTE] You can get an ATI scope mount that mounts above the bolt with a weaver rail. [url]http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/11643-1.html[/url] Granted you have to drill and tap it that's what you had to do to everything back in the day. Who gives a damn if you can't use stripper clips, most ammo cans don't come with them to begin with. If you want to get really stupid you could always get the UTG tri-rail as well and make it look all Tacticool. [url]http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MGR324-1.html[/url]
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;36052536]You can get an ATI scope mount that mounts above the bolt with a weaver rail. [url]http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/11643-1.html[/url] Granted you have to drill and tap it that's what you had to do to everything back in the day. Who gives a damn if you can't use stripper clips, most ammo cans don't come with them to begin with. If you want to get really stupid you could always get the UTG tri-rail as well and make it look all Tacticool. [url]http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MGR324-1.html[/url][/QUOTE] Yeah I know you can get all kinds of things to put on a nugget but it still isn't designed to take all that. My arguments were based on mostly original 91/30 specs. [img]http://www.illinoiscarry.com/forum/uploads/monthly_11_2007/post-437-1194135345.gif[/img] This is just one example how you could modify a nugget. You could fix all the flaws I mentioned with enough dedication, but in the end it gets a whole lot cheaper to buy a new gun - even if the project was based on a $100 rifle (in Finland nuggets go for 250-450€, a new CZ550 goes for 600€).
I hold that there's not a damn thing wrong with the Mosin-Nagant rifles. A lot of those 'problems' you posted above are compared to modern rifles. You can't compare a rifle design that's 80 years old to a rifle design that's 10 years old. Of course it isn't going to have a free-floating barrel, it wasn't a concept in 1920 when the Mosin-Nagant rifles first entered production. And that's not to say it's a bad rifle either. There have been more world renowned Russian snipers using Mosin-Nagant rifles with massive kill counts than with any other gun. And they sure as hell didn't modify their guns. They used stock scoped 91/30s that the Russian Army gave them.
[QUOTE=Araknid;36051158]what are you talking about. The quality of my 1938 mosin is perfect, excellent bore, and it fires fairly accurately. For a rifle that is 70 years old, it is fucking perfect. Where are you getting your shit from?[/QUOTE] Pre WW2 Mosins are okay. WW2 mosins are pretty shitty. After war ones are not as good as pre-war. [editline]22nd May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Ven Kaeo;36052783]I hold that there's not a damn thing wrong with the Mosin-Nagant rifles. A lot of those 'problems' you posted above are compared to modern rifles. You can't compare a rifle design that's 80 years old to a rifle design that's 10 years old. Of course it isn't going to have a free-floating barrel, it wasn't a concept in 1920 when the Mosin-Nagant rifles first entered production. And that's not to say it's a bad rifle either. There have been more world renowned Russian snipers using Mosin-Nagant rifles with massive kill counts than with any other gun. And they sure as hell didn't modify their guns. They used stock scoped 91/30s that the Russian Army gave them.[/QUOTE] 91/30... how did you even pull 1920's out of it?
[QUOTE=Ven Kaeo;36052783] A lot of those 'problems' you posted above are compared to modern rifles. You can't compare a rifle design that's 80 years old to a rifle design that's 10 years old.[/QUOTE] Not problems; outdated features. I also said that nuggets have a lot of pros. Also, you are right, you can't compare guns with almost a century of age difference, so I guess you don't mind if I get a year 2012 rifle for year 2012 needs? Typical Mosin Nagant doesn't make that good rifle for the purposes I want a rifle for; hunting and target shooting. A friend of mine sold his M44 (it had a plastic stock and some scope mount equipped and the original one still around) since it wasn't accurate enough (worn bore I guess) and loading the magazine under the scope without strippers in -20c (-4 Fahrenheit) weather during winter resulted bleeding and frostbitten fingers. Nowadays comfort & fun are pretty high priorities during freetime since there's no need for survival/war. But I respect your opinion, I'm sure that for $100 rifles nuggets perform pretty damn well.
[QUOTE=$$>MUFFIN<$$;36052865] 91/30... how did you even pull 1920's out of it?[/QUOTE] He probably meant 1930 when the 91/30 became standard issue.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;36053085]He probably meant 1930 when the 91/30 became standard issue.[/QUOTE] It was standard issue before then, it was updated in 1930. [QUOTE=ForestRaptor;36052709]Yeah I know you can get all kinds of things to put on a nugget but it still isn't designed to take all that. My arguments were based on mostly original 91/30 specs. [img]http://www.illinoiscarry.com/forum/uploads/monthly_11_2007/post-437-1194135345.gif[/img] This is just one example how you could modify a nugget. You could fix all the flaws I mentioned with enough dedication, but in the end it gets a whole lot cheaper to buy a new gun - even if the project was based on a $100 rifle (in Finland nuggets go for 250-450€, a new CZ550 goes for 600€).[/QUOTE] It doesn't take much dedication at all to fix the flaws. For less than $100 I can get a monte carlo stock that offers a floating barrel and add a scope mount. For another $50 I can put on a muzzle break. That's $250 total, where as to buy a comparable modern rifle we're looking at at least $400. As for corrosive ammo: shooting the ammo wont corroding the barrel, not cleaning the salts from it afterward is what will. In America there's plenty of new and match grade ammunition available.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;36053336] It doesn't take much dedication at all to fix the flaws. For less than $100 I can get a monte carlo stock that offers a floating barrel and add a scope mount. For another $50 I can put on a muzzle break. That's $250 total, where as to buy a comparable modern rifle we're looking at at least $400. As for corrosive ammo: shooting the ammo wont corroding the barrel, not cleaning the salts from it afterward is what will. In America there's plenty of new and match grade ammunition available.[/QUOTE] If I lived in US it would be really tempting to have a project like that, but since stuff is more expensive here in Finland, it would cost a whole lot more. I assume the costs would be 250€ for a new stock, 100€ for a proper scope, 200€ for rings and a mount, and 300€ for the rifle. 850€ = 1 085.28 U.S. dollars. Oh, and if anybody is interested, I'm looking for the following requirements: -.308 -Floating (perferably varmint) barrel -Synthetic stock -Rails on top (for scope) I will also get the barrel threaded by a gunsmith so I can install a silencer - in Finland you don't need a tax stamp or anything for silencers, you just go buy one. Oh, and there's still over a year left before I can apply so I'm not in a hurry with these choices :v:
If it weren't for Prusse, I'd say that Mosins are hard to come by here in Norway as I haven't found one for sale yet. But if you want a bolt-action rifle because: A) it's a gun B) It must kill stuff C) Legal in almost all pars of the world D) can't be scratched easily I'd recommend the Tikka T3. You get exactly what you pay for, it isn't a SUPAH LONG RANGE TACTICAL .338 EXOTICSHIT-rifle. It's available in .308. And it works. (Then again, a MN would work, but you said can't be scratched easily) With the Tikka T3, you don't get the right to care about scratches as it's a plastic-fantastic-stock on it. And yes, you can put just whatevet scope you want on the damn T3. I personally have a love/hate relationship with it. That because in my opinion, I don't like it because it's a ugly rifle with a plastic stock, but on the other hand, it's absolutely perfect for it's intended role. Not like how Remington and Mossberg polishes their turds, names them TACTICAL and sells to civilians.
[QUOTE=juGGa;36052445].308 is the most popular caliber in Finland, if I remember right.[/QUOTE] the rifle itself will cost more. If you like to shoot stock milsurp like I do, then the nugget's a good deal. If you want use the rifle for serious hunting, a new rifle's probably a good investment. CZ550, Sako 85, etc, are all excellent rifles the new R700s? not so much.
Tikka T3 Hunter/T3 Lite is probably the most solid choice. Also, for the .308, a friend of mine (yup the same who told me why I need a .308 bolt action) said that he will provide me with all .308 ammo I need - he has a stockpile of .308.
marker in trigger so ~edgy~ [img]http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss227/DeltaBF2s/Picture020-1.jpg[/img] [editline]22nd May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=ForestRaptor;36053906]Tikka T3 Hunter/T3 Lite is probably the most solid choice. Also, for the .308, a friend of mine (yup the same who told me why I need a .308 bolt action) said that he will provide me with all .308 ammo I need - he has a stockpile of .308.[/QUOTE] are you sure it's not old milsurp 7.62x51? because that's a lot cheaper and economical to stockpile.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;36053949]marker in trigger so ~edgy~ [img]http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss227/DeltaBF2s/Picture020-1.jpg[/img] [editline]22nd May 2012[/editline] are you sure it's not old milsurp 7.62x51? because that's a lot cheaper and economical to stockpile.[/QUOTE] It's new alright, and not technically a stockpile, just a fuckton of ammo.
[QUOTE=ForestRaptor;36053906]Tikka T3 Hunter/T3 Lite is probably the most solid choice. Also, for the .308, a friend of mine (yup the same who told me why I need a .308 bolt action) said that he will provide me with all .308 ammo I need - he has a stockpile of .308.[/QUOTE] For a little variety with choices... consider a Savage Arms (make sure it has the accu-trigger). They are seriously good guns. Also, Weatherby Vanguards and possibly Mark V are worth the thought. (Not to put down the Tikka which I am sure is an outstanding gun, but there are other options to at least think about.)
[QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;36054230]I know [B]EVERYTHING[/B].[/QUOTE] Well... at least we can all sleep tonight as The Lord hath made his proclamation upon this great land! and since his opinion isn't just fact, but law, there is no need for further discussion.
[QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;36054444]Sorry. Have fun with your rifle made out of very poor quality pot metal, a very rough, soft stock with casting edges and a piss poor trigger.[/QUOTE] Really? I didn't know you owned one? Or is it a friend? Or a friend of a friend? Or your friend's friend's former friend? Or possibly something you heard on the internet?
[QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;36054444]Sorry. Have fun with your rifle made out of very poor quality pot metal, a very rough, soft stock with casting edges and a piss poor trigger.[/QUOTE] Where the hell do you buy your rifles? Weatherbys are known to be extreamly accurate and the Mark V's have one of the strongest actions in the world. I don't know of many rifles that can handle [b]200,000 psi[/b]. The actions are made of machined steel and the barrels very depending on the model. I had a co-worker who would hunt Elk out in colorado with .300 win mag and peg them spot on at 700 yards. Their vanguard model is probably one of the cheapest <1 MOA rifle on the market, using a very rugged polymer stock. Where ever the hell you get your information from, I recommend finding another source.
[QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;36054718]Studies conducted by the university of Urbutt. You're smoking something.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=UncleJimmema;36054618] [b]Where ever the hell you get your information from, I recommend finding another source.[/b][/QUOTE] I love how you ignored this bit.
[QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;36054718]Studies conducted by the university of Urbutt. You're smoking something.[/QUOTE] Allow me to show you the science [quote]Weatherby had intended that the new action would be the safest and strongest bolt action available. The rifle was marketed as the "The World's Strongest Bolt Action." The Mark V action has been tested to be able to contain up to 200,000 psi (14,000 bar) of pressure.[4] The testing of the rifle was conducted on a production rifle chambered for the .300 Weatherby Magnum. Before testing was to be conducted very thorough measurements of the rifle were taken so as to provide a benchmark for the testing which was to be undertaken.[5] The first test was conducted using a 180 gr (12 g) bullet propelled by 82 gr (5.3 g) of Du Pont #4350 powder. This load provided 65,000 psi (4,500 bar) of pressure. This load did not show any pressure or extraction issues with the new Mark V action but caused a slight sticking of the cartridge case in the Mauser style rifle design. Subsequent testing was performed using the same 180 gr (12 g) bullet and using a powder charge of Du Pont #4350 which increased by increments of 2 gr (0.13 g) for each test thereafter.[2] The second testing which was conducted with the 84 gr (5.4 g) showed no signs of pressure nor issues with extraction even though the measured pressure was close to 75,000 psi (5,200 bar). Firing this load in the Mauser rifle led to a blown primer and extreme difficulty was experienced in extracting the spent case.[2] Using 86 gr (5.6 g) of Du Pont #4350 the cartridge began to show signs of pressure in the Mark V action. However, the case did not stick and extraction was performed easily. Breach pressure was found to be between 85,000–95,000 psi (5,900–6,600 bar). Measurements of the spent case showed that the case had stretched at the belt a mere .0005 in (0.013 mm).[2] The spent case from the 88 gr (5.7 g) test lead to a slightly sticking case which in turn lead to a slight difficulty in opening of the bolt. Measurements from the case belt showed that the belt had expanded from .533 in (13.5 mm) to .535 in (13.6 mm). The pressure generated by this load was 100,000 psi (6,900 bar). The fifth test conducted used a load of 90 gr (5.8 g) of Du Pont 4350. Firing this load lead to some difficulty in opening the bolt and the case was extracted when opened. The case of the belt still measured .535 in (13.6 mm). A difference in the diameter between the bolt head and the diameter of the barrel of .002 in (0.051 mm) per side was noted. No bulging of the bolt, receiver or the barrel was noted. Headspace was measured to be the same as prior to the testing.[2] Further testing was conducted with a 180 gr (12 g) bullet lodged in the throat of the barrel. A cartridge loaded with the standard charge of 78 gr (5.1 g) of Du Pont 4350 and a 180 gr (12 g) was fired into the back of the first bullet. It was found that both bullets exited the barrel. The primer had been pierced and the exiting gas entered into the bolt and hit the firing pin sleeve which was loosened slightly. The bolt was opened by hand but the cartridge stayed stuck in the chamber. When the case was tapped out it was found to be in good condition except for its pierced primer. It was found that the barrel, just in front of the receiver ring had expanded from 1.147 in (29.1 mm) to 1.1496 in (29.20 mm). The diameter of the bolt head had expanded from .7178 in (18.23 mm) to .7190 in (18.26 mm). The head space had increased from .2163 in (5.49 mm) to .2174 in (5.52 mm). All other dimensions had stayed constant. This test was conducted 15 times. A test was conducted with a 220 gr (14 g) bullet lodged in the bore of rifle and a 180 gr (12 g) grain bullet was fired into the back of this bullet. The result of this test found that the cartridge case head had expanded to .545 in (13.8 mm). After these additional 15 tests it was found that the head space was set back only a mere .001 in (0.025 mm)[/quote] "Griptonite" Polymer > Wood/Laminate/ABS plastic.
I use to love reading this thread, all about guns and shit.... But lets say Prussel ruins it :/
There may be science behind it, but my teacher who has been a praticing gunsmith for 20+ years despises Weatherbys and Savage.
[QUOTE=Campin Carl;36055073]There may be science behind it, but my teacher who has been a praticing gunsmith for 20+ years despises Weatherbys and Savage.[/QUOTE] I've been shooting for 17 years now, 15 competitively. I despise S&W, but that doesn't make their guns be magically made from pot metal and poor quality ABS plastic as prussel thinks.
[QUOTE=laxplayer77alt;36055015]I use to love reading this thread, all about guns and shit.... But lets say Prussel ruins it :/[/QUOTE] It's always Prussel or Faze, although I haven't seen any dumb posts from Faze in quite a while now.
[QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;36055135]I'm not doubting the metal pressure strength. The metal itself chips and gets roughed up very quickly. The stock is horrible. It is full of rough edges, very sharp moulding marks and it's incredibly soft. A bipod or resting the rifle on something pushes the stock against the barrel. (Why do american gun manufacturers think a non free-floating barrel is a good idea? It's incredibly dumb.) The bolt travel is meh and the trigger is far from good. A regular R700 has a better stock, trigger, bolt travel and lock time.[/QUOTE] Do you really think a rifle that could handle 200,000 psi would have such a low tinsel strength that it chips? I've fired my co-workers Mark V rifle and it completely contradicts what you're trying to convince me of here. The action was super smooth, the stock was very comfortable, the barrel was free floating, it had a 3.5 lb trigger pull (which was fully adjustable). I was hitting dead center left and right from anywhere between 200 to 700 yards. Not all of their rifles have free floating barrels, the ones that don't are those that are made of graphite or other materials that do not provide enough rigidity to allow free floating successfully. Regardless if they're free floating or not, all of their rifles are guaranteed <1 MOA at 100 yards
[QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;36055355]I'm not talking about the Mark V, I'm talking about the Vanguard 1/2.[/QUOTE] Im sorry, you didn't specify. You said this. [QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;36054230]Weatherbys are [B]COMPLETELY[/B] shit.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;36054444]Sorry. Have fun with your rifle made out of very poor quality pot metal, a very rough, soft stock with casting edges and a piss poor trigger.[/QUOTE] My cousins got a Vanguard 2 in 30-06. Last time I checked there's no chipping on my barrel, the stock was plenty comfortable, bolt worked fine, and he's still able to hit deer like no tomorrow.
[QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;36055422]Quality =/= being able to hit a deer at 150m.[/QUOTE] <1 MOA is pretty damn good quality. You don't get that out of pot metal and shit triggers.
Probably a bad time to ask during a shit storm, but I'm buying a M1A soon that runs 308 Winchester, can I run some surplus 7.62x51 through it, or should I stick to 308?
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;36055474]Probably a bad time to ask during a shit storm, but I'm buying a M1A soon that runs 308 Winchester, can I run some surplus 7.62x51 through it, or should I stick to 308?[/QUOTE] Yes, you can.
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