Unpopular opinions V8 Flat IS NOTHING - General

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;52581982]I hate both Antifa and Nazis(inc. Alt Right). Shockingly, both of them are attempting to establish their own form of tyrannical shithole, and both are filled to the brim with the same types of inbreds as the other.[/QUOTE] In just one sentence, you have demonstrated both a bona fide display of false equivalence and a fundamental lack of understanding concerning US Antifa's driving ideology. Antifa are autonomous groups of hard-left people, with anarcho-communism being the most represented, an ideology that does not have tyranny as its end goal. Additionally, Antifa (at least in the US) is [I]reactionary[/I], they would not exist without the current rise of the alt-right.

[QUOTE=Samiam22;52583244]In just one sentence, you have demonstrated both a bona fide display of false equivalence and a fundamental lack of understanding concerning US Antifa's driving ideology. Antifa are autonomous groups of hard-left people, with anarcho-communism being the most represented, an ideology that does not have tyranny as its end goal. Additionally, Antifa (at least in the US) is [I]reactionary[/I], they would not exist without the current rise of the alt-right.[/QUOTE] They may not explicitly have tyranny as their end goal but they do express force when people don't submit. Not necessarily in the case of what happened a few days ago, but in the cases in which they blatantly assault innocent people who have nothing to do with their ideological feud. See: the man who was hit with the bike lock ([url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/05/29/a-man-clobbered-trump-supporters-with-a-bike-lock-the-internet-went-looking-for-him/[/url]), the person who was beaten unconscious in the street and was still being trampled and beaten with poles by a passing mob ([url]https://youtu.be/9BZvhYkB4xo[/url]), the man who was in his car when it was set on fire and was [I]blamed[/I] for it because his boss is rich ([url]http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/24/anti-trump-protesters-set-muslim-businessmans-limo/[/url]). Their end goals may be different, but their methods aren't, and that's why they should rightfully both be despised. Claiming this does not imply support or call for complacency for either side. It's explicitly a condemnation. They're also equally delusional as well, so there's that.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;52583289]They may not explicitly have tyranny as their end goal but they do express force when people don't submit. Not necessarily in the case of what happened a few days ago, but in the cases in which they blatantly assault innocent people who have nothing to do with their ideological feud. See: the man who was hit with the bike lock ([url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/05/29/a-man-clobbered-trump-supporters-with-a-bike-lock-the-internet-went-looking-for-him/[/url]), the person who was beaten unconscious in the street and was still being trampled and beaten with poles by a passing mob ([url]https://youtu.be/9BZvhYkB4xo[/url]), the man who was in his car when it was set on fire and was [I]blamed[/I] for it because his boss is rich ([url]http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/24/anti-trump-protesters-set-muslim-businessmans-limo/[/url]). Their end goals may be different, but their methods aren't, and that's why they should rightfully both be despised. Claiming this does not imply support or call for complacency for either side. It's explicitly a condemnation. They're also equally delusional as well, so there's that.[/QUOTE] With the exception of the last link, clashes between protestors that end in fights will obviously end in people getting wounded. I honestly can't blame the far-left in the US, who have been historically and culturally been ignored for the longest time, beginning to turn to violence against the rising far-right because the current administration is either on the side of the far-right or not doing anything about it. [I]Of course[/I] political violence isn't ideal, but I honestly have no other ideas on how to combat the rising numbers of far-right in the US. The alternative of not doing anything and waiting for their ideology to collapse on itself will have a far greater violent impact. In any event, my criticism was aimed particularly at "both sides are equally as bad" which is not only untrue, generally said by people, whether they are aware of it or not, want to be seen as "above it all" by holding a centrist position, straight out of the South Park school of thought-terminating cliches.

Baked macaroni < stovetop macaroni.

Not sure how unpopular this is, but regular-ass salt pringles is some nasty-ass shit.

[QUOTE=My;52583538]Not sure how unpopular this is, but regular-ass salt pringles is some nasty-ass shit.[/QUOTE] I like putting mustard and sriracha and all kinds of shit on them

[QUOTE=My;52583538]Not sure how unpopular this is, but regular-ass salt pringles is some nasty-ass shit.[/QUOTE] sour cream and onion pringles are a god-tier snack

I despise Nazis and Antifa but I haven't the time of day for people who want to sell me on the idea that they are equally despicable.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52585357]Did you forget what the nazis believed, because I don't know how someone who didn't sleep through history class could believe that asspull. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race[/url] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untermensch[/url] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics[/url] Spend like 20 minutes skimming these and the related articles and say that again with a straight face, that people who believed that everyone who wasn't "Aryan" only has the semblance of a brain and is just the lowest order of organism that looks 100% like a human but is actually just faking, isn't anything but the highest order of delusion man kind has ever reached incomparable to anything that's come after. Like christ remember the time anti fa cooked up entire new fields of psuedo science to justify enslaving and killing the vast majority of the planet? I sure don't. But more to the point, statements like yours, both the "they are equally delusional and violent" and "I condemn them both" down play the facts in a highly misleading manner. Which shouldn't be surprising when a president who had to be pushed for 48 hours to condemn nazis and then just went right back to victim blaming the targets of a a terrorist attack uses not at all different rhetoric. Is anti fa bad? Yes no one in this entire forum with sound mind has ever denied that, it's irrelevant to anyone who isn't attempting whataboutism. Are they comparable to nazis? No, Fucking pay attention in school.[/QUOTE] It's not an asspull. The concept of anarcho-communism itself is just as delusional as Nazism. It's inherently a contradiction in and of itself, and for someone to parade it as a logically sound ideology means they are truly delusional. Read about what they think how property should work. It makes zero fucking sense. Most of them are also Tankies (AKA Stalinist and Maoist apologists), claiming that violence is [I]necessary[/I] to the revolution and will be just as happy to kill Liberals as well as Nazis. I also know what Nazism entails. I know how fucking stupid their pseudoscience sounds, so don't accuse me of being ignorant of the topic. I'm claiming that their methods of achieving their goals are of a similar caliber. Communists want to kill people just as much as Nazis, and they want to kill each other even more. That's how it's been for fucking decades. Stating that I condemn them both does not downplay the facts at all. It is a result of a completely dispassionate stance against Authoritarianism. There's no motive of moral superiority, there's no "above it all" attitude. I simply don't like communism of any kind and Nazism. Also, we do have legitimate Anti-Fa supporters on this forum. To claim that no one on this forum has denied they are bad is false.

I don't get the false equivalence shit. Like its not very reassuring to know that some antifa thug is breaking my kneecaps with good intentions. Who gives a shit? Its violence, it shouldn't happen no matter why its being committed.

[QUOTE=Broguts;52585866]I don't get the false equivalence shit. Like its not very reassuring to know that some antifa thug is breaking my kneecaps with good intentions. Who gives a shit? Its violence, it shouldn't happen no matter why its being committed.[/QUOTE] The difference is that Antifa might break your kneecaps. Nazis are just going to outright kill you. That's kinda a big difference, y'know?

[QUOTE=Broguts;52585866]I don't get the false equivalence shit. Like its not very reassuring to know that some antifa thug is breaking my kneecaps with good intentions. Who gives a shit? Its violence, it shouldn't happen no matter why its being committed.[/QUOTE] As a pretty firm pacifist even I admit that sometimes violence [I]is[/I] necessary, and with that considered, saying that "it shouldn't happen why it's being committed". I doubt that many would disagree with the idea that military action against the Third Reich was immoral and unnecessary. It's a last resort, but it's the most historically proven effective option in instances where diplomacy and calm debate aren't able to be heard or do not want to be heard. The only thing that justifies such violence, in my opinion, is a severe and imminent threat that is, at once, irrational and intending to inflict large amounts of violence themselves. Does one exist currently that should be fought against? Now that's a much tougher to unpack can of worms, especially in the modern era in which wars are more cultural as opposed to being relatively one-dimensional conflicts between major powers with an easily identified enemy.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52585709]You claim to understand what I was referencing, but still somehow the whole "wanting to enslave and genocide the planet" just doesn't have half the gravity to you as it should, which I suppose ties things together by explaining how you can continue to make the lopsided comparison.[/QUOTE] You've got a lot of nerve to tell me that I don't grasp the extent of what Nazis want to do to people. My grandfather didn't live through hell at a younger age than I to tell me what he saw during his tour in France just so I could ignore it, like you're accusing me of now. [quote]Also you conveniently missed that of [I]sound mind [/I]part about anti fa supporters, but that's a tiny mental disconnect next to the astronomical one that came before, and unlike you I wont do the olympic gold medal mental gymnastics to act like they're even on the same level.[/quote] What the hell does this sentence even mean? You've been consistently missing my point altogether. Let me state it again: While their end goals are different, their methods to achieve those goals (i.e. through mass purges) are the same. To deny this is to deny history and the countless causalities that suffered at the hand of both ideologies. You can't accuse me of mental gymnastics when you're ignoring my core argument completely. Try to take this into account in your next reply.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;52585895]The difference is that Antifa might break your kneecaps. Nazis are just going to outright kill you. That's kinda a big difference, y'know?[/QUOTE] You're acting like only racists are evil. If you dont see how antifa can become a problem as big if not bigger than the neo nazis just because they're left wing then you need to learn about Mussolini and the Bolsheviks.

[QUOTE=Broguts;52586007]You're acting like only racists are evil. If you dont see how antifa can become a problem as big if not bigger than the neo nazis just because they're left wing then you need to learn about Mussolini and the Bolsheviks.[/QUOTE] Well the racists are the ones currently killing people so yeah, they're the ones I'm worried about right this moment. Let's take care of them then we can worry about the ones who are largely just guilty of property damage rather than bodily harm or loss of life.

[QUOTE=Blazedol;52572188]the walking dead is the worst thing to happen to Telltale[/QUOTE] Really? Not like... Minecraft Story Mode? Season 1 had the most depressing story and ending I've ever seen in a game.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;52586035]Well the racists are the ones currently killing people so yeah, they're the ones I'm worried about right this moment. Let's take care of them then we can worry about the ones who are largely just guilty of property damage rather than bodily harm or loss of life.[/QUOTE] Did people just forget about the attempted assassinations of multiple republican congressmen? The perpetrator wasn't an Anti-Fa member, but his actions were loudly supported by them.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;52586114]Did people just forget about the attempted assassinations of multiple republican congressmen? The perpetrator wasn't an Anti-Fa member, but his actions were loudly supported by them.[/QUOTE] I mean, anyone can support anything. Especially when they are a part of an amorphous blob of people, that is such a group.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;52586114]Did people just forget about the attempted assassinations of multiple republican congressmen? The perpetrator wasn't an Anti-Fa member, but his actions were loudly supported by them.[/QUOTE] It's kinda difficult to claim someone's actions were supported by an amorphous leadershipless group. You can find individuals of just about any group who support that kind of shit. Your whole argument just seems to be whataboutism anyways. "Nazis are bad? Well whatabout them Antifas?!" Seriously it comes across as ignoring all the issues with literal fucking [I]Nazis[/I] roaming the streets.

lmao guys nazis are bad, this isn't hard

[QUOTE=Clovis;52586380]so is antifa[/QUOTE] I feel threatened by Nazis. I do not feel threatened by antifa. This is very clear-cut to me.

[QUOTE=Clovis;52586380]so is antifa[/QUOTE] so are peta, doesn't mean we need to equate them or bring them all up in the same discussion

[QUOTE=Alice3173;52586190]It's kinda difficult to claim someone's actions were supported by an amorphous leadershipless group. You can find individuals of just about any group who support that kind of shit.[/QUOTE] No, it isn't difficult to claim it was supported by Anti-Fa. It's leftist violence against republicans. Let's not be disingenuous and say that it's difficult to ascertain whether or not a militant leftist group would support it. There is leadership because there are efforts made by key people to organize rallies and counter-protests. The organization called BAMN is mostly responsible for this, so it's not as unorganized as you would like to believe. [quote]Your whole argument just seems to be whataboutism anyways. "Nazis are bad? Well whatabout them Antifas?!" Seriously it comes across as ignoring all the issues with literal fucking [I]Nazis[/I] roaming the streets.[/quote] Except it isn't whataboutism. Whatboutism requires the requesting of attention from something to something else for the purpose of downplaying. I'm not downplaying anything because I've said time and time again that Nazis are terrible. I'm also getting a little tired of the accusations that I'm ignoring the issues, because I'm not. I'm fully aware there are Nazis roaming the streets, and I detest them as much as anyone else. I support the current efforts to inhibit their congregation through means of refusing to host their websites, because that's the right way to do it. The only reason why I chimed in was because people were lazily spouting "false equivalence" and now "whataboutism" whenever the subject of Anti-Fa's accountability came up. You can misrepresent my argument all you want but that doesn't change my intentions, which was to create a response to the idea that communists can't be as bad as Nazis. Above all else, let's not forget we're at least on the same side against Nazis.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;52585638]It's not an asspull. The concept of anarcho-communism itself is just as delusional as Nazism. It's inherently a contradiction in and of itself[/quote] Anarcho-communism isn't a "contradiction in and of itself" just because you fail to understand it, and only someone who really does fail to understand it would think its even in the same realm as Nazism. [quote]and for someone to parade it as a logically sound ideology means they are truly delusional. Read about what they think how property should work.[/quote] Communal ownership of the means of production and public property with respect for property is the stance of Ancoms on a very basic level, and I don't see what part of this you think is delusional at all. Both the former and the latter have already happened and continue to happen in the modern day, in different respects. [quote]It makes zero fucking sense. Most of them are also Tankies (AKA Stalinist and Maoist apologists), claiming that violence is [I]necessary[/I] to the revolution and will be just as happy to kill Liberals as well as Nazis.[/quote] [I]Anarchists[/I] are tankies? Kropotkin's work was partly based on his disagreement of Marx and the state socialism that Soviet Russia was operating under, and Marx's ideology was what the Bolsheviks based their own on. The Anarchist critique of capitalism was generally of power structures, whereas Marxian critiques of capitalism are based on the theory of surplus value. These are not the same things. [quote] I also know what Nazism entails. I know how fucking stupid their pseudoscience sounds, so don't accuse me of being ignorant of the topic.[/quote] You are ignorant on this topic. "Knowing how stupid their pseudoscience sounds" is not a benchmark of any kind of expertise on Nazi Germany, it is common decency and a small knowledge of humanities. [quote]I'm claiming that their methods of achieving their goals are of a similar caliber. Communists want to kill people just as much as Nazis, and they want to kill each other even more. That's how it's been for fucking decades.[/quote] And you're wrong. Nowhere in the Communist Manifesto (or even in other pamphlets like What Is To Be Done?) does it say "let's kill a whole bunch of people because of the way they were born". Marx's position on the use of political violence is a straight-forward one. The ruling class have all the money and power and will not give up their position willingly (because why would they?) and so the proletariat have, once they understand class struggle, should use any means necessary to usurp them, which includes violence if they must. [quote]Stating that I condemn them both does not downplay the facts at all. It is a result of a completely dispassionate stance against Authoritarianism. There's no motive of moral superiority, there's no "above it all" attitude. I simply don't like communism of any kind and Nazism.[/quote] No, you have grievances with the actions of certain communist [I]states[/I], not communism itself. Saying you have a dispassionate stance against authoritarianism and then saying that it's why you don't like communism as an ideology is a non-sequitur. To make this as easy as possible for you to understand, Marx's actual vision of a communist society (as well as basically every other notable author in that field including Kropotkin, who could probably be considered the most important author of the ancom movement) was far to the bottom left of the political compass. [QUOTE=Boaraes;52586114]Did people just forget about the attempted assassinations of multiple republican congressmen? The perpetrator wasn't an Anti-Fa member, but his actions were loudly supported by them.[/QUOTE] And the actions of the [I]literal, actual[/I]l Nazis are currently being supported right now by the current far-right. You are clueless.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;52586425]Above all else, let's not forget we're at least on the same side against Nazis.[/QUOTE] This is the issue. You don't come across that way in the least bit. You just look like you're trying to deflect from the situation. And the fact you're trying to equate Antifa to being just as bad despite the arguments being laid out for you doesn't help at all. This has been argued many times over the pat several days across quite a few threads. People have explained in very great detail the difference between Nazis and Antifa and exactly why Antifa is nowhere near as bad as Nazis are. Antifa is garbage, yeah, I totally agree. I can't actually think of a single time I've ever thought positively of them since I first became aware of them. But unlike the Nazis they focus primarily on property damage and not bodily harm. (Which isn't to say they've never harmed anyone of course, they have.) That alone means they are inherently better than Nazis. Property is replaceable. People are not. If your view is legitimately that Antifa and Nazis are both bad then at least wait until Antifa is actively hurting things and people rather than when Nazis are to go off on how bad Antifa is. It comes across as disingenuous, especially when a lot of the people jumping to the defense of Nazis, on this site and elsewhere, are doing exactly that.

[QUOTE=Samiam22;52586454]Anarcho-communism isn't a "contradiction in and of itself" just because you fail to understand it, and only someone who really does fail to understand it would think its even in the same realm as Nazism.[/quote] Care to explain your reasoning? It seems to me that the divergence between Ancarchism and Communism comes not from the end goal (which are definitely similar), but the methods to reach those end goals and moreso the time-frame in which those methods are executed. Communists want a gradual process from capitalism to common control of production, while Anarchists simply want to skip the process and go straight to a stateless, classless society, which usually implies force. It seems rather bizarre to subscribe to an ideology that is the bastardization of two groups that diverge on arguably the most important part. [quote]Communal ownership of the means of production and public property with respect for property is the stance of Ancoms on a very basic level, and I don't see what part of this you think is delusional at all. Both the former and the latter have already happened and continue to happen in the modern day, in different respects.[/quote] It's delusional because communal ownership of the means of production is incompatible with a large-scale society. To ensure assimilation of a large population to an entirely different system is to forcibly collectivize the population. We saw this in the late 1920s in the Soviet Union. The already existing peasantry who owned land were forced to have their farms collectivized in an effort to maximize production because Marx's idea of how the market should work is fucking retarded. So, right off the bat, it's simply a pipe-dream that can only succeed on a very small scale. [quote][I]Anarchists[/I] are tankies? Kropotkin's work was partly based on his disagreement of Marx and the state socialism that Soviet Russia was operating under, and Marx's ideology was what the Bolsheviks based their own on. The Anarchist critique of capitalism was generally of power structures, whereas Marxian critiques of capitalism are based on the theory of surplus value. These are not the same things.[/quote] The term "tankie" does not have to explicitly refer to the crushing of the Hungarian revolution. It's more so used in the context of someone who sympathizes with the violence of revolution, and in the case of Anarchists, violent revolution is the quickest way to a fully realized communist state. The vehement opposition of western interventionism is also a primary trait. If Kropotkin's work is based on the disagreement of Soviet Russian state socialism, then how come his last work was produced in 1905 (which was more about Russian language and literature than politics) when the Soviet Union rose in 1917? Also, a quote from Kropotkin on the Bolsheviks: "During all the activities of the present revolutionary political parties we must never forget that the October movement of the proletariat, which ended in a revolution, has proved to everybody that a social revolution is within the bounds of possibility. And this struggle, which takes place worldwide, has to be supported by all means - all the rest is secondary. The party of the Bolsheviks was right to adopt the old, purely proletarian name of "Communist Party". Even if it does not achieve everything that it would like to, it will nevertheless enlighten the path of the civilised countries for at least a century. Its ideas will slowly be adopted by the peoples in the same way as in the nineteenth century the world adopted the ideas of the Great French Revolution. That is the colossal achievement of the October Revolution." ([url]https://www.bolshevik.info/meeting-lenin-kropotkin-bonc-brujevic1919.htm[/url]) [quote]You are ignorant on this topic. "Knowing how stupid their pseudoscience sounds" is not a benchmark of any kind of expertise on Nazi Germany, it is common decency and a small knowledge of humanities.[/quote] You can call me ignorant on pretty much everything else but the scientific inquiries of Nazi Germany. I've read extensively on the subject so I would appreciate if you didn't misconstrue my restraint of going deeper into a tangent as an indicator of ignorance, thank you. [quote]And you're wrong. Nowhere in the Communist Manifesto (or even in other pamphlets like What Is To Be Done?) does it say "let's kill a whole bunch of people because of the way they were born". Marx's position on the use of political violence is a straight-forward one. The ruling class have all the money and power and will not give up their position willingly (because why would they?) and so the proletariat have, once they understand class struggle, should use any means necessary to usurp them, which includes violence if they must.[/quote] No part of stating that the existence of killing in the name of each ideology is incorrect. This is the billionth time someone has either misunderstood or intentionally misconstrued my argument on this matter. [B]I am not arguing on the specifics of the end goals of each ideology in this context.[/B] I am arguing on the basis that communism is not adverse to violent insurrection. [quote]No, you have grievances with the actions of certain communist [I]states[/I], not communism itself. Saying you have a dispassionate stance against authoritarianism and then saying that it's why you don't like communism as an ideology is a non-sequitur. To make this as easy as possible for you to understand, Marx's actual vision of a communist society (as well as basically every other notable author in that field including Kropotkin, who could probably be considered the most important author of the ancom movement) was far to the bottom left of the political compass.[/quote] You are somewhat correct in the sense that I'm less adverse to communism as an ideology than its real-life implementation, but that extent ends thus. Allow me to reiterate as well: I disagree with the methods and theories based on dispassionate analysis. I dislike it because of its real-life failures and the suffering it's wrought. Whether or not I like/dislike or agree/disagree with something, those are two different things to me. [quote]And the actions of the [I]literal, actual[/I]l Nazis are currently being supported right now by the current far-right. You are clueless.[/QUOTE] How does that invalidate what I said? [QUOTE=Alice3173;52586456]This is the issue. You don't come across that way in the least bit. You just look like you're trying to deflect from the situation. And the fact you're trying to equate Antifa to being just as bad despite the arguments being laid out for you doesn't help at all. This has been argued many times over the pat several days across quite a few threads. People have explained in very great detail the difference between Nazis and Antifa and exactly why Antifa is nowhere near as bad as Nazis are. Antifa is garbage, yeah, I totally agree. I can't actually think of a single time I've ever thought positively of them since I first became aware of them. But unlike the Nazis they focus primarily on property damage and not bodily harm. (Which isn't to say they've never harmed anyone of course, they have.) That alone means they are inherently better than Nazis. Property is replaceable. People are not. If your view is legitimately that Antifa and Nazis are both bad then at least wait until Antifa is actively hurting things and people rather than when Nazis are to go off on how bad Antifa is. It comes across as disingenuous, especially when a lot of the people jumping to the defense of Nazis, on this site and elsewhere, are doing exactly that.[/QUOTE] How do I not come across that way? I have stated my disgust with Nazis many times in this thread. My stating that leftist violence exists does not mean I believe that there should be less focus on eliminating right-wing violence. Anti-Fa is also actively hurting people, so I'm not sure where you're getting at with your suggestion to hold off on the conversation until they do.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;52586623]How do I not come across that way? I have stated my disgust with Nazis many times in this thread. My stating that leftist violence exists does not mean I believe that there should be less focus on eliminating right-wing violence. Anti-Fa is also actively hurting people, so I'm not sure where you're getting at with your suggestion to hold off on the conversation until they do.[/QUOTE] Except right now it's Nazis that are literally out there killing people within this last week. Not Antifa. Can you not see how deflecting away from Nazis in such a situation is not only rather tactless but easily comes across as trying to write Nazis off? (Especially when there are people that commonly use the same exact arguments and forms of arguments to actively defend the Nazis.)

Killing and hurting innocent people is bad no matter what your motives are. I don't see why it has to be a such a god damn dick measuring contest.

"But Antifa" is starting to become the new "but Hillary".

[QUOTE=_Axel;52587137]"But Antifa" is starting to become the new "but Hillary".[/QUOTE] Yeah but unlike the election you don't have to choose one over the other, you can hate both of them.