I think it's more important to see the dangers of prioritizing masculinity in guys over anything else. Masculinity in and of itself isn't harmful. It's when it starts becoming a "must-have" to check off a list that it becomes stupid.
I like being masculine.
[QUOTE=prinner;52687756]If you think that being walked over and pushed around your entire life is an acceptable way to live then there is no point discussing this because you have such a different mindset to me[/QUOTE]
And now you're just forcing your own arbitrary standards on people using incredibly loaded statements
[QUOTE=Pascall;52687803]I think it's more important to see the dangers of prioritizing masculinity in guys over anything else. Masculinity in and of itself isn't harmful. [B]It's when it starts becoming a "must-have" to check off a list that it becomes stupid.
[/B]
I like being masculine.[/QUOTE]
you could say that about literally any obsession why single out masculinity?
[QUOTE=Broguts;52687810]you could say that about literally any obsession why single out masculinity?[/QUOTE]
Because it was the topic that was being discussed?? Unless I posted in the wrong thread.
[QUOTE=Pascall;52687813]Because it was the topic that was being discussed?? Unless I posted in the wrong thread.[/QUOTE]
I was saying in general, I wasn't trying to single you out. I was saying in regards to the topic in general why single out masculinity?
[QUOTE=prinner;52687659]those are traits i would say are masculine. that sense of confidence and boldly moving forward (in life or in general) are what makes me feel like a man, so to speak[/QUOTE]
So you're saying that a woman who is confident in herself is masculine? That's kinda rather retarded, lol.
[QUOTE]that's quite sad. are you conflating masculinity and machoism? people's idea of the 2 seem to have been merging a lot lately[/QUOTE]
I dunno if you read the posts that kicked off this discussion but it landed firmly on the side of machoism garbage to begin with so...
[QUOTE=Broguts;52687810]you could say that about literally any obsession why single out masculinity?[/QUOTE]
Because that's what we're talking about right now??
[editline]16th September 2017[/editline]
late sorry
[QUOTE=gokiyono;52687809]And now you're just forcing your own arbitrary standards on people using incredibly loaded statements[/QUOTE]
would you care to back up that claim ????? you said being a yes man is ok, and i disagreed as i would find it an emasculating way to live. what about that is a loaded statement or is forcing anything on anyone?
[QUOTE=Broguts;52687821]I was saying in general, I wasn't trying to single you out. I was saying in regards to the topic in general why single out masculinity?[/QUOTE]
I mean I don't think it's singled out, personally. The same thing can be attributed to femininity. As someone who grew up in a Hispanic household where femininity and sexual attraction is something that's hammered into a our brain from birth, it similarly becomes a thing you "need to have" to be considered a "real woman".
It's pretty much the only reason why I haven't tried to cut my hair short is because this external pressure to be feminine by everyone in my family is such an oppressive sensation that not unlike men being told "boys don't cry", it's extremely difficult to break out of and go against.
Shit sucks for everyone, no matter what their gender identity. There are these outside expectations that just suck.
I only mentioned masculinity because, like I said, that's what was being discussed specifically lol.
LGBT parades are unnecessary.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;52687824]So you're saying that a woman who is confident in herself is masculine? That's kinda rather retarded, lol.[/quote]
we're living in liberated times. women can have masculine traits if they want
[quote] I dunno if you read the posts that kicked off this discussion but it landed firmly on the side of machoism garbage to begin with so...[/QUOTE]
i'm talking about masculinity in broader society, the only reason i started posting was because someone implied you get nothing out of being a man which i disagreed with
[QUOTE=prinner;52687843]would you care to back up that claim ????? you said being a yes man is ok, and i disagreed as i would find it an emasculating way to live. what about that is a loaded statement or is forcing anything on anyone?[/QUOTE]
No it's the words you're using. Saying stuff like "walked over and pushed around" is incredibly loaded given how that isn't what happens most of the time. Most of the time it's just people getting by, which there isn't any problem with.
I think I should call them buzzwords instead, actually. Try to sell me on it without using any buzzwords
[QUOTE=prinner;52687870]we're living in liberated times. women can have masculine traits if they want[/QUOTE]
Thanks for ignoring my question and saying something totally irrelevant instead.
[QUOTE]i'm talking about masculinity in broader society, the only reason i started posting was because someone implied you get nothing out of being a man which i disagreed with[/QUOTE]
And they were talking about the completely retarded ideas of machoism that Bleach Qeef and others were posting about. Maybe you should read up on a discussion before weighing in on it so you don't end up looking like you're agreeing with something you may not actually support.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;52687888]Thanks for ignoring my question and saying something totally irrelevant instead.[/quote]
im sorry you found my response indignant. would you like me to call you retarded back?
[quote]And they were talking about the completely retarded ideas of machoism that Bleach Qeef and others were posting about. Maybe you should read up on a discussion before weighing in on it so you don't end up looking like you're agreeing with something you may not actually support.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=prinner;52687604]I don't agree with what bleach said completely [...] I see a lot of young men today who just seem to mope around with no gas or vigor, and its a bit upsetting to me[/QUOTE]
right back at ya
[QUOTE=prinner;52687915]im sorry you found my response indignant. would you like me to call you retarded back?[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should pay more attention to the actually relevant point rather than my quip that indirectly implies you're retarded maybe? (Though saying a viewpoint is retarded is most certainly not the same as saying the person who holds the viewpoint is retarded anyways. Not that I expect someone who gets caught up in this debate with views such as yours to be able to make that distinction.)
[QUOTE]right back at ya[/QUOTE]
Oh, so what you're saying is you jumped into a conversation with totally irrelevant points and made it look like you didn't read and were still somehow confused that people opposed your views?
[QUOTE=gokiyono;52687883]No it's the words you're using. Saying stuff like "walked over and pushed around" is incredibly loaded given how that isn't what happens most of the time. Most of the time it's just people getting by, which there isn't any problem with.
I think I should call them buzzwords instead, actually. Try to sell me on it without using any buzzwords[/QUOTE]
again i disagree with you , there are a lot of people in my experience who are looking for a fight or to fuck you over (this especially!) and sometimes you just have to be the unpopular one to get your point across
i dont really see how the terms i used are buzzwords either, sorry. that's just the way i talk
[QUOTE=myon;52687770]I do not agree with excluding asexual persons from the lgtbq movement, a movement that understands how exclusion feels.[/QUOTE]
I personally don't see why we need L or Q because they're both covered by G.
IMO the perfect acronym would be GTB+ or something like that because it covers the big three without over-inflating homosexuality and allows for inclusion of anyone else who's non-binary or has non-standard attractions. It's also shorter, which is nice.
[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;52687856]LGBT parades are unnecessary.[/QUOTE]
But they're fun.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;52687824]So you're saying that a woman who is confident in herself is masculine? That's kinda rather retarded, lol.[/QUOTE]
That's totally accurate though? If you have traits that have been associated with men since the dawn of time in practically every society, yes, you're masculine.
[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;52687856]LGBT parades are unnecessary.[/QUOTE]
LGBT parades consist largely of middle-aged people living out the teenage years that were denied to them.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;52687926]Maybe you should pay more attention to the actually relevant point rather than my quip that indirectly implies you're retarded maybe? (Though saying a viewpoint is retarded is most certainly not the same as saying the person who holds the viewpoint is retarded anyways. Not that I expect someone who gets caught up in this debate with views such as yours to be able to make that distinction.)[/quote]
ok, let me readdress your point in a more serious tone (ive broken it down into bulletpoints to avoid a bulk paragraph so it will be easier to follow my thought process):
-bravery and self confidence are typically considered masculine traits. you can disagree with this but this is how it's been for many years
-until recently women were not expected to be brave and were expected to be reliant on the man
-these expectations are more or less extinct in modern society
-the meaning of the word masculine is largely the same (as far as i see it), yet the social expectations have changed
-so yes, women can be masculine if that's how they choose to live
i gave you a flippant response to avoid all this because it's way off what i was actually getting at.
[quote]Oh, so what you're saying is you jumped into a conversation with totally irrelevant points and made it look like you didn't read and were still somehow confused that people opposed your views?[/QUOTE]
i was trying to give my thoughts on a topic, and i also my opinions very clear. what else do you want from me?
[QUOTE=Broguts;52687810]you could say that about literally any obsession why single out masculinity?[/QUOTE]
it's the one most relevant for me but I agree that femininity can reach the same incredible toxicity as masculinity.
ridding ourselves of the expectations of how one should act purely based on genitals - while we might be far from achieving that - is what I one day hope we achieve.
[QUOTE=prinner;52687998]ok, let me readdress your point in a more serious tone (ive broken it down into bulletpoints to avoid a bulk paragraph so it will be easier to follow my thought process):
-bravery and self confidence are typically considered masculine traits. you can disagree with this but this is how it's been for many years
-until recently women were not expected to be brave and were expected to be reliant on the man
-these expectations are more or less extinct in modern society
-the meaning of the word masculine is largely the same (as far as i see it), yet the social expectations have changed
-so yes, women can be masculine if that's how they choose to live[/QUOTE]
Well I can't really disagree with your general point here. I would like to point out that throughout history bravery and confidence have by no means been limited to men though. They just tend to be expressed by women in ways that people tend to overlook easily. That's the biggest reason I can't personally see bravery and self-confidence as purely masculine traits. Actually has nothing to do with modern social expectations for me really.
[QUOTE]i gave you a flippant response to avoid all this because it's way off what i was actually getting at.[/QUOTE]
It would have been a lot more productive to make that clear immediately though, would it not?
[QUOTE]i was trying to give my thoughts on a topic, and i also my opinions very clear. what else do you want from me?[/QUOTE]
Well clearly you weren't clear enough since people didn't get what you meant, no?
[QUOTE=Alice3173;52688021]It would have been a lot more productive to make that clear immediately though, would it not?[/quote]
in hindsight yes, i was hoping you would ignore it and we could move on lol
[quote]Well clearly you weren't clear enough since people didn't get what you meant, no?[/QUOTE]
no offense but most other people here have gotten my point
[QUOTE=Alice3173;52688021]Well I can't really disagree with your general point here. I would like to point out that throughout history bravery and confidence have by no means been limited to men though. They just tend to be expressed by women in ways that people tend to overlook easily. That's the biggest reason I can't personally see bravery and self-confidence as purely masculine traits. Actually has nothing to do with modern social expectations for me really.[/QUOTE]
Whether you personally see them as masculine traits or not doesn't really matter in this context. Society has [I]always[/I] defined confident, aggressive traits as masculine. When you're arguing semantics you can't just go "well actually I see this word as meaning something nobody else thinks it means." You could make a [I]very[/I] good argument for saying that they aren't masculine traits, but until that argument makes social connotation change and forces the language morph as it did with the word "gender," anyone with a dictionary can go "but the definition for masculine outright proves you incorrect."
I don't think capitalism is inherently bad.
[QUOTE=Mr Kotov;52688256]I don't think capitalism is inherently bad.[/QUOTE]
capitalism at its core is beneficial for employers to gain the economy needed to then fund employees who then earn the money they need to survive and more, but its often (or always) exploited for the employer to earn as much as possible while shafting the employees. its like communism in that regard.
[QUOTE=myon;52688264]capitalism at its core is beneficial for employers to gain the economy needed to then fund employees who then earn the money they need to survive and more, but its often (or always) exploited for the employer to earn as much as possible while shafting the employees. its like communism in that regard.[/QUOTE]
I was having a debate with friends and brought this up and they instantly tore me to shreds and said I supported classism, Trump, racism etc.
My argument was that capitalism dosen't care about human morals, it is a tool that can be used for good or bad.
[QUOTE=Mr Kotov;52688283]I was having a debate with friends and brought this up and they instantly tore me to shreds and said I supported classism, Trump, racism etc.
My argument was that capitalism dosen't care about human morals, it is a tool that can be used for good or bad.[/QUOTE]
This is why I prefer to think of economic systems like a force of nature rather than a political system. Economics are apolitical.
I don't really think we've as of yet invented a system that can, in its most fundamental form, effectively serve human interests. There's always regulations, patches to the holes the system has, and constant, cycling ups-and-downs when certain patches are overlooked, or cause problems themselves. This applies to communism as well as capitalism, but capitalism is the primary example in our world.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
Unpopular opinions V8 Flat IS NOTHING
