HEMA/Historical Warfare v. 1 "Strike in and hasten forth; rush to, let it hit, or go by."
422 replies, posted
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;49564361]Well, I thought doppelsoldners weren't part of the pike squares anyway? I maybe missed some detail here or there.[/QUOTE]
i guess it depends on which part of history of the pike in europe you're looking at. i don't think the very early swiss pike squares used any complex combinations. however from what i read, the history and evolution of pike squares and blocks like the tercio is pretty complex and requires sources that definitely list who were used. even then it isn't quite clear.
but so far, most sources if not all list that halberdiers were used with pike squares. men with firearms were also extensively used. i think there's also a misunderstanding of the word doppelsoldners by linking it to men who used zweihanders.
this historian, Daniel Staberg, goes into it further:
[quote]The use of the Zweihander by the Doppelsöldner have been greatly exaggerated in modern times, widespread use is not supported by the period sources. For them the doppelsöldner was first and foremost an armoured pikeman as witnessed by for exampel the "Trewer rath" (probably written by Frundsberg himself) "...the Doppel-sölder, that is the armoured pike..." The Trewer Rath envisons a 21 ranks deep formation:
(Each rank is 13 files wide)
1-4th rank: "Doppelsöldner"
5th rank: halberdiers
6-7th rank: "Mittelsöldner"
8-10th rank: "gemeinen söldner"
11-13th rank: "Führern, Furirern, Waybeln und Schlachtschwerter" together with the two ensigns
14-18th rank: "gemeiner söldner"
19th rank: "knebelspeiss"
20-21st rank: Doppelsöldner
The Hauptmann stod in the middle of the 1st rank while the Leutnant stod in the last rank.
On each side of the men with pikes, halberds and other melee weapons stod 23 ranks of men with firearms, each rank was 5 files wide. The first 4 ranks were made up of "doppel-schützen" i.e men armed with heavier firearms such as the musket or doppelhaken.
By the time the scribe of Daniel Rantzau was writing a war diary of the campaign of 1567-1568 the word "doppelsöldner" had become another name for an armoured pikeman. The landsknechts in Danish service havign doppelsöldner, men with "short weapons" (i.e halberds) and men with firearms. It seem that the unarmored or lightly armoured "mittelsöldner" & "gemein söldner" pikemen had been converted to arquebusiers who were far more usefull in the broken Swedish terrain. Only the well equipped and experience armoured doppelsöldner retained the pike.
The regulations for the Imperial troops laid down in 1570 envsioned the following organisation
Each 400 man "fähnlein" of Landsknechts were to have 100 "fully harnessed" pikemen armed with pistols(!) (50 of these were to be doppelsöldner), 50 men with two-handed swords or other good polearms such as halberds also armed with pistols ("Good and experienced men to guard the standard") 50 unarmoured pikemen and 200 shot with firearm, good 'rapiers'(!) and helmets. The only doppelsöldner were the 50 picked pikemen.
According to Junghans von Olnitz a "Fähnlein" of 500 men should have 200 arquebusiers, 200 pikemen, 45 halberdiers, 45 men with boarspears and 10 men with "schlachtschwert".
Wintzenberger have a Fähnlein of 300 men: 82 doppelsöldner with harness and pikes, 14 doppelsöldner with harness and "schlachtschwert", 18 halberdiers, 42 musketeers and 144 arquebusiers.[/quote]
[URL="http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=16442"]link to his post (it's further down the page)[/URL]
Well, all I know about the doppelsoldner is that they were in the front. Then of course they could be armed with whatever. but this made me assume that if you had greatsword-wielders in a square, and they would be the ones who would have to go front and assault the other pikesquare, then they would probably have earned that extra pay.
yeah that's understandable. i think that most of the time, the men armed with polearms in a pike block/square such as halberds were behind the first couple of rows of pikemen and sometimes, the men with the zweihanders (usually in much lower numbers), were mostly used to guard the ensign and the flag around the center of the square. doppelsoldners just seem to be the well armoured and probably the most experience pikemen out front.
i thought about having the guys with the greatswords out too but nearly every author i've read seem to emphasize the importance on the first rows of armoured men being armed with pikes. the halberdiers and sometimes, the shield and swords men, being the important support when the push of pike got really ugly or if the cavalry charge was breaking apart the square.
anyways, the most obvious facts remain that pike to pike combat was incredibly brutal and the number of greatsword-wielders in a pike square/block were relatively low.
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;49564510]yeah that's understandable. i think that most of the time, the men armed with polearms in a pike block/square such as halberds were behind the first couple of rows of pikemen and sometimes, the men with the zweihanders (usually in much lower numbers), were mostly used to guard the ensign and the flag around the center of the square. doppelsoldners just seem to be the well armoured and probably the most experience pikemen out front.
i thought about having the guys with the greatswords out too but nearly every author i've read seem to emphasize the importance on the first rows of armoured men being armed with pikes. the halberdiers and sometimes, the shield and swords men, being the important support when the push of pike got really ugly or if the cavalry charge was breaking apart the square.
anyways, the most obvious facts remain that pike to pike combat was incredibly brutal and the number of greatsword-wielders in a pike square/block were relatively low.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I can see that from the sources you posted. However, in various discussions I see, they sometimes make a distinct difference between schlactschwert, which is what the banner-guards used, and the biden/doppelhänder. But sometimes, there is no difference made. I wonder why the same sword had so many names.
[editline]20th January 2016[/editline]
(and zweihänder as a name for this sword was invented in the late 19th century iirc)
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5dc3sFAJWk[/media]
Anyone saw Warzechas new sparring vid? The intensity in which they spar with sharps now has reached a new level.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;49570170]Yes, I can see that from the sources you posted. However, in various discussions I see, they sometimes make a distinct difference between schlactschwert, which is what the banner-guards used, and the biden/doppelhänder. But sometimes, there is no difference made. I wonder why the same sword had so many names.[/QUOTE]
i guess that's the issue with renaissance/medieval naming. happens all the time with armour too. speaking of armour, here's a little excerpt about Sir Arthur Haselrig, commander of the london lobsters during the english civil war.
[quote]Haselrig was shot three times at Roundway Down, with the bullets apparently bouncing off his armour. After firing a pistol at Haselrig's helmeted head at close range without any effect Richard Atkyns described how he attacked him with his sword, but it too caused no visible damage; Haselrig was under attack from a number of people and only succumbed when Atkyns attacked his unarmoured horse. After the death of his horse Haselrig tried to surrender; but as he fumbled with his sword, which was tied to his wrist, he was rescued. He suffered only minor wounds from his ordeal.[/quote]
also new knyght errant video
[video=youtube;ZuupVQJYD0s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuupVQJYD0s[/video]
[editline]25th January 2016[/editline]
roland's sharp sparring is always neat to watch
I always liked HEMA. Never really got into it, but watching two people sparring is always entertaining.
I remember there was once a live demonstration of some HEMA members sparring with daggers and longswords. Kinda regret not sticking around longer now.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;49590576][media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5dc3sFAJWk[/media]
Anyone saw Warzechas new sparring vid? The intensity in which they spar with sharps now has reached a new level.[/QUOTE]
Confused at 2:25, who exactly got the hit there?
[QUOTE=NitronikALT;49605913]I always liked HEMA. Never really got into it, but watching two people sparring is always entertaining.
I remember there was once a live demonstration of some HEMA members sparring with daggers and longswords. Kinda regret not sticking around longer now.
Confused at 2:25, who exactly got the hit there?[/QUOTE]
Between Karen and Roland? Or Roland and Ingo?
In the former, it was Karen, if you look in the slowmotion footage you can see that Roland separates his sword from his buckler which creates an opening to the left side of his face.
In the case of the latter, the side hit from roland is obvious.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;49610511]
In the former, it was Karen, if you look in the slowmotion footage you can see that Roland separates his sword from his buckler which creates an opening to the left side of his face.
[/QUOTE]
Oh I'm seeing it now. I really couldn't make it out, but now it's clear as day
sidesword videos
[video=youtube;0ChWmvBaWv4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ChWmvBaWv4[/video]
[video=youtube;X2Wnh7B8WWY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2Wnh7B8WWY[/video]
also here's footage taken from the livestream of swordfish 2015. it should contain most of the finals.
[video=youtube;-Dvl1sTUcv8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dvl1sTUcv8[/video]
Really like the flow Ilkka's got going. He's a great fencer.
So my sword is officially broken beyond repair. Turns out the damage on the thread from the pommel is just too severe to be repaired.
However, my tutor, being the guy he is, has given me another longsword.
Along with the words "If you break this one I swear imma kick the everloving shit out of you".
Looking forward to summer. I plan on getting some more horsemanship done and learn some more fencing from horseback.
...You had a threaded tang instead of a peened one?
Yup...
I sincerely hope your new longsword has a hot peened tang then.
Threads are for rapierists.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;49751918]I sincerely hope your new longsword has a hot peened tang then.
Threads are for rapierists.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't.
It's another one of those cheap ones from Pakistan I told you about.
Oh right. Christ sakes m8, get yourself a Pavel Moc already.
I would love to, but I can't afford a new sword. :(
Ok, next week I'm attending my first competition in Uppsala. Swiss style tournament, means no pools but rather you just fight a lot of people and points declare who gets to go to finals. Will be fun! I'll return with the results, no matter how good or bad they are...
Good luck bro! I believe you can make it quite far if you keep your head cool.
Do any of you guys do historical costumes or more general reenactment in addition to the fighting?
I don't know much about the actual martial arts, but I'm big into the costume and armour part.
[QUOTE=Garrot;49826836]Do any of you guys do historical costumes or more general reenactment in addition to the fighting?
I don't know much about the actual martial arts, but I'm big into the costume and armour part.[/QUOTE]
well the sca is very big into historical costumes and armour but the quality hugely varies. i'm very interested in armour, specifically between the 14th and mid 17th centuries in europe. i'm also in the process of making a late 1590s suit.
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;49826869]well the sca is very big into historical costumes and armour but the quality hugely varies. i'm very interested in armour, specifically between the 14th and mid 17th centuries in europe. i'm also in the process of making a late 1590s suit.[/QUOTE]
Cool, I do some landsknecht reenactment. 16th century is the shit.
Got any pictures of your suit in progress? Unless that is going too off-topic :v:
[QUOTE=Garrot;49826920]Cool, I do some landsknecht reenactment. 16th century is the shit.
Got any pictures of your suit in progress? Unless that is going too off-topic :v:[/QUOTE]
16th century best century.
nah don't have any pictures of the suit yet since i just started on it lol. nothing more than a few calico pieces of the doublet right now.
I just finished sewing a landsknecht doublet recently, it's hard to make it tight without constricting your movement.
Gonna make some historical 16th century hotpants soon, because the concept is too hilarious to pass up
[t]http://orig13.deviantart.net/3d85/f/2016/054/6/b/landsknecht_wams_by_captain_asparagus-d9svbt9.png[/t]
Where do you live, Garrot? If it's anywhere in the Stockholm area, you may visit our club anytime.
Kalmar is my nearest city, so a bit too far away for me. Thanks for the offer though.
Well, you're as welcome if you're ever in town!
[QUOTE=Garrot;49826836]Do any of you guys do historical costumes or more general reenactment in addition to the fighting?
I don't know much about the actual martial arts, but I'm big into the costume and armour part.[/QUOTE]
Well, my club are reenactors at medieval/viking markets. Not that I'm particular interested in it.
I'm just showing up to fight, really.
Interesting news, everyone!
It is now official that my club will handle all the horse and infantry combat in an upcoming series called Storm Warrior!
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