• HEMA/Historical Warfare v. 1 "Strike in and hasten forth; rush to, let it hit, or go by."
    422 replies, posted
No I'm not. I'm the one with the ugly shoes. He tried muscling around with me as well (the last match in the video) but he realized I had more musclepower than him. :v: [editline]7th May 2015[/editline] Probably another reason as to why he got so mad.
I think people (especially in competitions) need to realise that muscle is not what they should rely on. There are more than one treatise that mentions that it wouldn't be an art if it's only down to who's strongest. Take this quote from one of the earliest treatises, most likely documented by a personal student of Liechtenauer: [quote] Weak against strong, hard against soft and vice versa . Because when it is strong against strong, the stronger one will always win. That is why Liechtenauer’s swordsmanship is a true art that the weaker wins more easily by use of his art than the stronger by using his strength. Otherwise what use would the art be? Therefore learn well to feel [Fuhlen] in the swordplay[/quote]
Trust me, I know all about how using your muscle instead of technnique can fuck you over in the end. My teacher is half my size and he'll still kick my ass because his techniques are superior to mine. Tournaments bring the gorilla out in people. They wanna be the strongest and win with muscles. [editline]7th May 2015[/editline] We focused alot on side-stepping the weeks up to the tournament. It's better to work around a person charging at you than standing still and try to push back.
[QUOTE=Sunkite;47676804]Trust me, I know all about how using your muscle instead of technnique can fuck you over in the end. My teacher is half my size and he'll still kick my ass because his techniques are superior to mine. Tournaments bring the gorilla out in people. They wanna be the strongest and win with muscles. [editline]7th May 2015[/editline] We focused alot on side-stepping the weeks up to the tournament. It's better to work around a person charging at you than standing still and try to push back.[/QUOTE] Absolutely, If you can step around your opponent well and he can't respond you will probably win 9/10.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47676819]Absolutely, If you can step around your opponent well and he can't respond you will probably win 9/10.[/QUOTE] Plus they end up feeling dumb because you showed superior technique. Which is a huge plus in my book. :v:
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47665496]This thread has been too abandoned lately! [t]https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7763/16761801503_ec09c26ac4_c.jpg[/t] Here's an image from the latest medieval market, this poor bastard broke his finger after the first few bouts.[/QUOTE] cool harness, looks like mid-late 14th century. sucks about his finger but in the sca and i assume, hema, it's an incredibly common injury alongside with ankle rolling and shoulder injury.
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;47676979]cool harness, looks like mid-late 14th century. sucks about his finger but in the sca and i assume, hema, it's an incredibly common injury alongside with ankle rolling and shoulder injury.[/QUOTE] It is a very common injury in HEMA. Along with strained ankles.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T21uXihIZcI[/media] Have this extremely interesting video on just how different a bind works when comparing sharps and blunts. Super useful advice, and the stuff you have to do to wind a sharp properly actually makes it easier to complete the movement. This is something I'll keep in mind from now on. Also gotta say Warzecha is my absolute fave.
really interesting. i've always kinda known that sharps do not handle or perform the same way that blunts do but it's cool to see the differences in action. also seeing that vid made me remember just how important it is to not lose site of the fact that you're trying to do or recreate historical stuff. as soon as people forget about the modern additions or modifications and still assume everything's 100% historical, you start getting things horribly wrong or distorted. i'm not too familiar with how that exactly affects hema and swordsmanship but that sort of attitude gets pretty rampant in the sca, especially with topics related to armour.
Well HEMA's gone a bit haywire with it, in my personal opinion. While I have nothing against competitions, I do consider them to be entering quite a large disconnect from how a historical sparring bout (let alone a duel) probably looked like, and I mean that more in terms of the use of weapons and protection. The rules themselves are usually a mix of things found in historical treatises as well with some modernisations to keep it safe. However, in the US, unless I read an article wrong, some of the tournaments seem to be gearing towards a ruleset similar to kendo. In Sweden HEMA was recently officially recognised as a sport, which is very worrying if you ask me. I think it will sadly eventually lead to a standardisation, which means that all clubs that train will train the exact same thing and we will lose some meaningful exchanges, not to mention how more strict the rules will become. Another problem is equipment. In competitions, people fight "blossfecthen" (unarmoured) While wearing enough protection to simulate harnischfechten(armoured). It makes people used to getting hit which will lead to them not trying to defend themselves, and focusing more on getting the opportunity to attack. This is something I'm personally working on, and I seem to have endless discussions with the instructor on what drills we can do to make sure people start learning how to value their own life over their opponents death. If you ask me, when Warzecha brings up stuff like this he takes the "historical" side of it to it's absolute peak, and I rarely see someone else in the community do that. He's a genuine inspiration to me, especially since he seems to be one of the few who consider how this can actually be used in self-defence and not just think of it as stuff you learn to apply in a sparring session.
those are good points you bring up. i'm curious about the equipment though. is there anything beyond a gambeson, gloves, meshed helmet, knee pads hema people in competitions wear? armoured combat in my experience is best replicated when people are actually wearing armour. the weight, movement (and restrictions), and several techniques which require pieces of a complete harness are quite specific and i can't imagine historically authentic armoured combat taking place when people are decked out in gambesons and modern plastic equipment. i've seen other people like matt easton of schola gladiatoria talk about people fighting in a "sparring" fashion and not in a "self-defense" style with people being unrealistically suicidal. also historically there wouldn't be anything much beyond the clothes of their day and/or a padded fencing jacket during sparring. i guess there needs to be a reminder that whatever modifications hema gets in the modern world, the word "historical" should always remain a priority. it'd be pretty shitty to see after all this hard work in researching historical european martial arts and reviving it, just to see it turn into a modern sport like kendo or olympic fencing.
It's more about the general feel. Sure the encumbrance isn't quite there, but the protection at this level is absolutely more geared towards a fighter being ready for harnischfechten rather than the opposite. Like if you put it on a scale between 0 and 100 with 100 being fully armoured the current level of protection in contrast to weapons used are at least over 50 because in general, unless you get hit on the hands, it won't hurt as much. It hurts about as much as if you're hit with a blunt when wearing armour. [editline]7th May 2015[/editline] It's interesting that you mention olympic fencing, because as it is now, if HEMA sporting is taken to the extreme, then fighting with rapier and saber will fall out completely. Current olympic fencing is basically already the absolute extreme of historical officer saber (1800-1900) and the sidesword, which is what the rapier ultimately became. Also on your question of protection, in most tournaments you are required to have all the things you said (gambeson must have closed armpits), lower leg protection, thigh protection, cup, elbow pads, and on occasion additional padding along the underarm. Basically it's a huge amount.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47678663]It's more about the general feel. Sure the encumbrance isn't quite there, but the protection at this level is absolutely more geared towards a fighter being ready for harnischfechten rather than the opposite. Like if you put it on a scale between 0 and 100 with 100 being fully armoured the current level of protection in contrast to weapons used are at least over 50 because in general, unless you get hit on the hands, it won't hurt as much. It hurts about as much as if you're hit with a blunt when wearing armour. [editline]7th May 2015[/editline] It's interesting that you mention olympic fencing, because as it is now, if HEMA sporting is taken to the extreme, then fighting with rapier and saber will fall out completely. Current olympic fencing is basically already the absolute extreme of historical officer saber (1800-1900) and the sidesword, which is what the rapier ultimately became. Also on your question of protection, in most tournaments you are required to have all the things you said (gambeson must have closed armpits), lower leg protection, thigh protection, cup, elbow pads, and on occasion additional padding along the underarm. Basically it's a huge amount.[/QUOTE] I did sabre fencing for five years, and I think that, while it's fun, it could useful and even more fun if we did it with historically accurate weapons and equipment, and relaxed the rules. As it is, it's worthless for self-defense, and the dry, strict rules in scoring are a bit stifling.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47678252]Well HEMA's gone a bit haywire with it, in my personal opinion. While I have nothing against competitions, I do consider them to be entering quite a large disconnect from how a historical sparring bout (let alone a duel) probably looked like, and I mean that more in terms of the use of weapons and protection. The rules themselves are usually a mix of things found in historical treatises as well with some modernisations to keep it safe. However, in the US, unless I read an article wrong, some of the tournaments seem to be gearing towards a ruleset similar to kendo. In Sweden HEMA was recently officially recognised as a sport, which is very worrying if you ask me. I think it will sadly eventually lead to a standardisation, which means that all clubs that train will train the exact same thing and we will lose some meaningful exchanges, not to mention how more strict the rules will become. Another problem is equipment. In competitions, people fight "blossfecthen" (unarmoured) While wearing enough protection to simulate harnischfechten(armoured). It makes people used to getting hit which will lead to them not trying to defend themselves, and focusing more on getting the opportunity to attack. This is something I'm personally working on, and I seem to have endless discussions with the instructor on what drills we can do to make sure people start learning how to value their own life over their opponents death. If you ask me, when Warzecha brings up stuff like this he takes the "historical" side of it to it's absolute peak, and I rarely see someone else in the community do that. He's a genuine inspiration to me, especially since he seems to be one of the few who consider how this can actually be used in self-defence and not just think of it as stuff you learn to apply in a sparring session.[/QUOTE] You are only looking on the negative parts of tournaments, though. I cannot disagree with it. Since afterblows are a legitimate thing and some people concentrate on pure offensive strategies instead of defending themselves. But, a very good thing about tournaments is that you get to fight against people you've never fought against before. Remember that the manuals like Lichtenauers are only guidelines as to what you can do/what techniques works well. With that in mind. Everyone had as a different understanding of said techniques and the timing of their hits. No one fences exactly the same. Sure, pupils will fence much in the same way as their tutors. But they still bring something new to the table. Fighting in a tournament is a great way of learning new techniques and how to fence. This is also thanks to the HEMA community being very close-knitted and full of very generous and kind people. I would not worry about HEMA being considered an official sport. The whole fighting is done so quickly that it will never be a spectator sport. Also also. I've heard one too many stories of people taking everything in the manuals too litterally and not being flexible enough. Meaning they get their asses handed to them when they fence against a person more focused on hitting/defending themselves than doing 100 percent what the manuals say you should do.
[QUOTE=Sunkite;47679660]You are only looking on the negative parts of tournaments, though. I cannot disagree with it. Since afterblows are a legitimate thing and some people concentrate on pure offensive strategies instead of defending themselves. [B]But, a very good thing about tournaments is that you get to fight against people you've never fought against before. Remember that the manuals like Lichtenauers are only guidelines as to what you can do/what techniques works well.[/B] With that in mind. Everyone had as a different understanding of said techniques and the timing of their hits. No one fences exactly the same. Sure, pupils will fence much in the same way as their tutors. But they still bring something new to the table. Fighting in a tournament is a great way of learning new techniques and how to fence. This is also thanks to the HEMA community being very close-knitted and full of very generous and kind people. I would not worry about HEMA being considered an official sport. The whole fighting is done so quickly that it will never be a spectator sport. Also also. I've heard one too many stories of people taking everything in the manuals too litterally and not being flexible enough. Meaning they get their asses handed to them when they fence against a person more focused on hitting/defending themselves than doing 100 percent what the manuals say you should do.[/QUOTE] Yes, this is what's inherently good about tournaments. And Liechtenauer himself presented principles of fighting to people who already knew techniques. While they're up for interpretation, they're not guidelines per se. For me, techniques exist to teach the principle, but it's worth noting that more than one master has said that as yo uattack, you will have a planned intent on what you do. You start with your Vorschlag and since you know your opponent has enough skill to parry it, you immediately feel the bind and then carry out your Nachslag. In this way, the techniques you learn can be used in full effect in sparring, but I also agree with what you say, there's no point knowing the techniques if you don't understand how to keep your defense as you move in and out of the striking distance of your opponent.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47678663]Current olympic fencing is basically already the absolute extreme of historical officer saber (1800-1900) and [B]the sidesword[/B], which is what the rapier ultimately became. [/QUOTE] lol don't you mean the small sword? i mean, the sidesword is a general term to any 16th century cut-and-thrust sword with a complex hilt and the small sword is that 17th-18th century sword that lead to the foil and epee in olympic fencing (practiced the former for about 2 years). that said though, olympic fencing rules will pretty much make any hema swordsmanship fall out completely because it's essentially the perfect example of a martial art that's been absolutely optimised for sport e.g. right-of-way, a "touch" and electrical point scoring system, equipment that simply do not function like real weapons do at all, and some body parts being illegal to hit, . whether it'd be german longsword or bolognese swordsmanship, they'd start to resemble something entirely different if they had to follow the same rule set.
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[QUOTE=kimchimafia;47683826]lol don't you mean the small sword? i mean, the sidesword is a general term to any 16th century cut-and-thrust sword with a complex hilt and the small sword is that 17th-18th century sword that lead to the foil and epee in olympic fencing (practiced the former for about 2 years). that said though, olympic fencing rules will pretty much make any hema swordsmanship fall out completely because it's essentially the perfect example of a martial art that's been absolutely optimised for sport e.g. right-of-way, a "touch" and electrical point scoring system, equipment that simply do not function like real weapons do at all, and some body parts being illegal to hit, . whether it'd be german longsword or bolognese swordsmanship, they'd start to resemble something entirely different if they had to follow the same rule set.[/QUOTE] Yes, you're right, I usually mix the two up. And we're already a bit on the way there. Leon Paul offer HEMA jackets adapted for electrical systems, most modern competitions don't allow you to strike towards the back, etc. At least we still have the afterblow.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47689997]Yes, you're right, I usually mix the two up. And we're already a bit on the way there. Leon Paul offer HEMA jackets adapted for electrical systems, most modern competitions don't allow you to strike towards the back, etc. At least we still have the afterblow.[/QUOTE] To be honest, you need to stop being so paranoid about HEMA ending up like olympic fencing. Simply because HEMA participants wont allow it to become a sport fot sissies. :v: For real though, chill out man. Even if it gets more public attention I doubt it will change that much.
[QUOTE=Sunkite;47690250]To be honest, you need to stop being so paranoid about HEMA ending up like olympic fencing. Simply because HEMA participants wont allow it to become a [B]sport fot sissies. :v:[/B] For real though, chill out man. Even if it gets more public attention I doubt it will change that much.[/QUOTE] Considering the surprising amount of fatalities in olympic fencing, I wouldn't call it a sissy sport. Besides, people would hit as hard and as fast with new rules, it's other stuff that I'm worried about. I won't deny I'm overly cynical about this, and probably things will turn out better than I fear. But the good thing about pessimism is that I'm either right or pleasantly surprised! Anyway, I'll stop derailing the thread about this topic. Back to swords! 2 things, me and another in the club are considering researching sword and buckler and then presenting it to the group, and my instructor is going to buy a zweihänder, so we're going to have some fun with that later this year.
I had to cancel my plans to check out Inges pretty much at the last minute. Not too happy about that. Oh well, there's always next week. Somebody post some videos, I need to rehype myself.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYIFFhyL3j8[/media] [editline]9th May 2015[/editline] Montante sparring for you! The montante is a two-handed spanish sword, usually at about 160 cm length (in comparison to longswords 120-140 and greatswords/zweihänder 180). Used almost exclusively on the battlefield or by the captain of the watch, who could use it for breaking up duels in cities. Check out some of the other videos on the same channel.
pennsic wars are always good [video=youtube;VYv3bbMTbKE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYv3bbMTbKE[/video] [video=youtube;ui5-WIps-0M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui5-WIps-0M[/video]
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47690513]Considering the surprising amount of fatalities in olympic fencing, I wouldn't call it a sissy sport. Besides, people would hit as hard and as fast with new rules, it's other stuff that I'm worried about. I won't deny I'm overly cynical about this, and probably things will turn out better than I fear. But the good thing about pessimism is that I'm either right or pleasantly surprised! Anyway, I'll stop derailing the thread about this topic. Back to swords! 2 things, me and another in the club are considering researching sword and buckler and then presenting it to the group, and my instructor is going to buy a zweihänder, so we're going to have some fun with that later this year.[/QUOTE] I'd recommend you get in touch with my tutor regarding sword & buckler and see if he can come up and give a lesson or two. He's extremely skilled at it and a very good teacher.
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;47690704]pennsic wars are always good [video=youtube;VYv3bbMTbKE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYv3bbMTbKE[/video][/QUOTE] This was my first Pennsic (not a heavy though). Hope I can go this year. [editline]9th May 2015[/editline] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXk9V5sG_dM[/media] Rapier melee from the year after. I'm in this video a few times :D Side opposing the camera man, down the line to the right, with the big wooden round shield.
[QUOTE=Sunkite;47691000]I'd recommend you get in touch with my tutor regarding sword & buckler and see if he can come up and give a lesson or two. He's extremely skilled at it and a very good teacher.[/QUOTE] I'll consider it, and it has to be taken through the board, since guest instructors = expenses. I am very interested in getting in touch with Warzecha as well, so we'll see where all of this culminates. Hopefully we can start a class in a year or so.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47691093]I'll consider it, and it has to be taken through the board, since guest instructors = expenses. I am very interested in getting in touch with Warzecha as well, so we'll see where all of this culminates. Hopefully we can start a class in a year or so.[/QUOTE] He won't take an arm and a leg. Might even do it for free. (no promises on that one though) If it does happen I'll gladly tag along so we can have a sparring match or two.
[QUOTE=Sunkite;47691142]He won't take an arm and a leg. Might even do it for free. (no promises on that one though) If it does happen I'll gladly tag along so we can have a sparring match or two.[/QUOTE] Well, it's reasonable that travel and living expenses are paid, as is usual when clubs bring in guest instructors for training, esp. in martial arts. If he doesn't get reimbursement for training you guys then I'd suppose he'd train us for "free", as in the actual training sessions, not counting travel etc.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;47691164]Well, it's reasonable that travel and living expenses are paid, as is usual when clubs bring in guest instructors for training, esp. in martial arts. If he doesn't get reimbursement for training you guys then I'd suppose he'd train us for "free", as in the actual training sessions, not counting travel etc.[/QUOTE] I think he can live with that. But again. No promises.
I'm back from the medieval fair, bitches! Why did none of you post in the thread? For shame. It was a great experience working at the fair, but holy fuck are people idiots. We left with some really stressed horses since people cant read or use common sense. At least I found and bought a awesome Bascinet I can use for jousting!
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