HEMA/Historical Warfare v. 1 "Strike in and hasten forth; rush to, let it hit, or go by."
422 replies, posted
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;48211900]the romans did indeed have a standing army after the marian reforms which took place during the late republic under general marius. they were trained, equipped and paid by the state and were around even during peace time. prior to that, i guess the most important part to the pre-marian army recruitment is that soldiers had to bring and buy their own equipment.
also i think bananafoam's talking about the first standing army after the romans in western europe since standing armies and navies obviously existed elsewhere too. i thought that achievement went to charless vii not henry. but then again i've also heard that the black army of hungary could have been considered the more important standing "army" that was created in western europe after the romans.
other than that, dunno anything about the carolingian military. however one thing one to note that is often in the late 15th century and beyond, kings and nobles often bought a large surplus amount of arms and armour that could be used by their troops in war. so essentially they too would supply a small percentage of their troops with equipment bought by their king/noble, i.e. a small standing army. it could explain why their army was decently well equipped.
[B]also i don't think we'll have much luck discussing individual fighting styles prior to i33 which is late 13th century to early 14th century.[/QUOTE][/B]
That's absolutely fine as this is also the "historical warfare" thread, even if I do have a personal bias to the manuals. Speculation on how to fight with some weapons are always welcome. Looking again at Roland Warzecha, he has more or less completely reconstructed the way of fighting with viking sword (and similar swords) and shield, from almost nothing. He more or less reversed-engineered the buckler back to its bigger roots. It's very cool and very fascinating.
yeah i'm not against speculation on fighting with weapons that lack definitive sources on how they were used. it's just that we won't have much luck getting anything conclusive unless one of us here is also as dedicated and skilled at doing so like roland.
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;48211954]yeah i'm not against speculation on fighting with weapons that lack definitive sources on how they were used. it's just that we won't have much luck getting anything conclusive unless one of us here is also as dedicated and skilled at doing so like roland.[/QUOTE]
That's why it's speculation :P. Not like some sort of historical authority is gonna rain down on us and go "what's this?! Speculating about the use of weapons that there are no mentions on how to use at all? Heresy!"
of course. it's still speculation in the end and it's pretty much no harm no foul. i don't think any big historical authority guy would even care as long as we remember it's speculation. it's a good topic for discussion anyway.
also too many bad memories of people forgetting that speculation does not equal fact lol.
[editline]15th July 2015[/editline]
or maybe it's just an sca thing...
Ah, right. I have had the privilege of not having to be around too many of those.
I agree but it's not true.. Feder blades look really boring, tbh.
Blades from Regenyei or swords made to look like actual longswords are way cooler.
[url]http://www.forgifs.gallery/2015/06/fail-car-dog-show-fail.html[/url]
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Bot" - Craptasket))[/highlight]
Wow I'm not gonna click that. How did that thing even generate that post?
[editline]15th July 2015[/editline]
Oh right, it copies from previous posters. Nvm. Just don't click that!!!
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48212052]Ah, right. I have had the privilege of not having to be around too many of those.[/QUOTE]
lucky
it's pretty bad when nearly every historical "fact" you hear is either muddy speculation or hearsay.
[editline]15th July 2015[/editline]
also it'd probably be a good idea to post some good informative stuff from time to time like that krumphau post. should definitely help to keep this thread from dying.
I will do such posts from time to time, when I get the time over.
Well this thread kinda fell of the radar. Been a while since I saw it.
So we've started on spears at my HEMA club. Got to fight my tutor for the first time last week.
Being the dumbasses we are, we agreed that jackets are for pussies and we only needed helmets since we'd only hit eachother in the head.
Naturally, shit went south. It started off allright, we both got some sweet hits in. I used my own spear which is longer and has wings on it, but it's also alot heavier than the one my tutor used, akin to the likes of a Javelin.
So, as he goes for my face, the spear slided off my mask, got under the collar and stabbed me in the neck and collarbone.
We went easy with the fighting, which is why we didn't wear jackets. I crumbled together because getting stabbed with a spear, even if it's blunt, [B]hurts like hell when it hits your goddamn neck.[/B]
Because we went easy, he quickly dropped his spear so I wouldn't get hurt, and asked if I was okay. Luckily, all I ended up with was trouble breathing without it hurting for 15-20 minutes, a bruise and feeling like an idiot.
So yeah. Even if you 'go easy' with someone who knows what they're doing, [B]don't cut down on safety equipment.[/B] We did it once, we learned from it and luckily nothing serious happened.
[editline]16th July 2015[/editline]
Also, how do you subscribe to threads so you can keep coming back to them? i'd like to keep an eye on this thread and do my part of keeping it alive, since FP isn't exactly the hotspot for HEMA fencers :v:
[editline]16th July 2015[/editline]
Also also, how do you guys feel about polearms? Personally I'd love to learn fighting with Halberds and Billhooks, especially the latter.
[t]http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=78315&stc=1[/t]
Absolutely love these. Why would you be satisfied with only having the stabby-stabby of a spear, or the slicy-slicy and choppy-choppy of glaives and voulges when you can have all of them in one, and a gnarly hook for fucking with cavalry?
[QUOTE=Sunkite;48216233]Well this thread kinda fell of the radar. Been a while since I saw it.
So we've started on spears at my HEMA club. Got to fight my tutor for the first time last week.
Being the dumbasses we are, we agreed that jackets are for pussies and we only needed helmets since we'd only hit eachother in the head.
Naturally, shit went south. It started off allright, we both got some sweet hits in. I used my own spear which is longer and has wings on it, but it's also alot heavier than the one my tutor used, akin to the likes of a Javelin.
So, as he goes for my face, the spear slided off my mask, got under the collar and stabbed me in the neck and collarbone.
We went easy with the fighting, which is why we didn't wear jackets. I crumbled together because getting stabbed with a spear, even if it's blunt, [B]hurts like hell when it hits your goddamn neck.[/B]
Because we went easy, he quickly dropped his spear so I wouldn't get hurt, and asked if I was okay. Luckily, all I ended up with was trouble breathing without it hurting for 15-20 minutes, a bruise and feeling like an idiot.
So yeah. Even if you 'go easy' with someone who knows what they're doing, [B]don't cut down on safety equipment.[/B] We did it once, we learned from it and luckily nothing serious happened.
[editline]16th July 2015[/editline]
Also, how do you subscribe to threads so you can keep coming back to them? i'd like to keep an eye on this thread and do my part of keeping it alive, since FP isn't exactly the hotspot for HEMA fencers :v:
[editline]16th July 2015[/editline]
Also also, how do you guys feel about polearms? Personally I'd love to learn fighting with Halberds and Billhooks, especially the latter.
[t]http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=78315&stc=1[/t]
Absolutely love these. Why would you be satisfied with only having the stabby-stabby of a spear, or the slicy-slicy and choppy-choppy of glaives and voulges when you can have all of them in one, and a gnarly hook for fucking with cavalry?[/QUOTE]
you can click subscribe at the bottom of the thread, on the right side.
Also, you didn't have rubber tips? Even we do that, and we are quite lenient on rules.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48216411]you can click subscribe at the bottom of the thread, on the right side.
Also, you didn't have rubber tips? Even we do that, and we are quite lenient on rules.[/QUOTE]
....How have I not seen that before...
No? Why should we? The spear tips have allready been made more bulbous, round and blunt. Adding rubber into it seems redundant.
or do you mean the entire spearhead? If that's the case, rubber tips/heads would behave very differently from steel ones, so we'd rather not use that.
[editline]16th July 2015[/editline]
They look like this, although more rounded at the point.
[IMG]http://shop.zwaardenvolk.nl/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/i/mini-img_2262.jpg[/IMG]
This thread was kind of painful to read over the last month since I was banned and have been doing a whole month of HEMA...
Well, I dunno what to actually say, but I've been going to a HEMA school and it's been great fun! Got a tournament this saturday and everything. I'll almost certainly be knocked out in the first round, but it'll be a good experience.
[QUOTE=Reds;48217643]This thread was kind of painful to read over the last month since I was banned and have been doing a whole month of HEMA...
Well, I dunno what to actually say, but I've been going to a HEMA school and it's been great fun! Got a tournament this saturday and everything. I'll almost certainly be knocked out in the first round, but it'll be a good experience.[/QUOTE]
You're going to a tournament after only a month of practicing HEMA? That's kinda ballsy.
I went to my first tournament after 8 months, and that is still considered too early by most.
Hope you have fun mate. Remember that the Flux is your friend. :v:
[QUOTE=Sunkite;48216520]....How have I not seen that before...
No? Why should we? The spear tips have allready been made more bulbous, round and blunt. Adding rubber into it seems redundant.
or do you mean the entire spearhead? If that's the case, rubber tips/heads would behave very differently from steel ones, so we'd rather not use that.
[editline]16th July 2015[/editline]
They look like this, although more rounded at the point.
[IMG]http://shop.zwaardenvolk.nl/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/i/mini-img_2262.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Yes, a bit different, but since its only the tip you still get a fairly realistic handling.
Anyway, spears without gorget is definitely unrecommended.
[QUOTE=Reds;48217643]This thread was kind of painful to read over the last month since I was banned and have been doing a whole month of HEMA...
Well, I dunno what to actually say, but I've been going to a HEMA school and it's been great fun! Got a tournament this saturday and everything. I'll almost certainly be knocked out in the first round, but it'll be a good experience.[/QUOTE]
what weapon systems will you be competing in?
[QUOTE=Sunkite;48219502]You're going to a tournament after only a month of practicing HEMA? That's kinda ballsy.[/QUOTE]
It's 98% to spectate. I have absolutely no delusions about my level of ability other than that I'm extremely proficient in losing.
[editline]16th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;48219765]what weapon systems will you be competing in?[/QUOTE]
Just longsword, only had one lesson in one-handed so far with the messer. The "term" has been winding down since I got there late, last week the main instructor was out of town and it was all barehanded stuff.
[editline]16th July 2015[/editline]
Probably the most interesting fight I've had was against this guy who rolled up in his fucking legionnaire armour using a tower shield. My heater shield wasn't quite on the same level but I did decently against him, managed to stab him in the face a couple of times.
[t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/229468864/Photos/IMG_20150620_162336.jpg[/t]
What kind of tournament? Using steel or synthetics?
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48219868]What kind of tournament? Using steel or synthetics?[/QUOTE]
I don't know many details other than just "yo there's a tournament on". I do know that there's both steel and synthetic divisons so I'll be competing with just synthetics.
[QUOTE=Reds;48219825]Probably the most interesting fight I've had was against this guy who rolled up in his fucking legionnaire armour using a tower shield. My heater shield wasn't quite on the same level but I did decently against him, managed to stab him in the face a couple of times.
[t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/229468864/Photos/IMG_20150620_162336.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
hmm, i'd be really interested in also having a early imperial legionnaire kit if i didn't have to make so many modifications for it to be legal in the sca. tower/scutum shields are very cool.
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;48219932]hmm, i'd be really interested in also having a early imperial legionnaire kit if i didn't have to make so many modifications for it to be legal in the sca. tower/scutum shields are very cool.[/QUOTE]
what makes it illegal?
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48219734]Yes, a bit different, but since its only the tip you still get a fairly realistic handling.
Anyway, spears without gorget is definitely unrecommended.[/QUOTE]
We don't have those, we mainly use steel weapons.
We have a couple of synthetic longswords and really dense latex swords for saber-fencing.
Yeah, I learned that the hard way, haha.
[QUOTE=Reds;48219902]I don't know many details other than just "yo there's a tournament on". I do know that there's both steel and synthetic divisons so I'll be competing with just synthetics.[/QUOTE]
Competing with synthetics would be the wisest choice for you, due to your lack of experience.
Have you tried fencing with steel swords yet?
Also, about the spectating bit. Be sure to take notice of the more experienced fencers footwork.
Proper footwork can be a hard thing to nail, but it's so important to learn.
Watching other peoples footwork can give you a general idea of how to do it.
Now, I can't say for sure about the aus HEMA community, but generally everyone at tournaments are really nice, so asking for tips from different people is also a viable (and a good,) option.
Hell, most of the time people were having sparing matches and showed techniques to each other while other pools in the tournament I was in went on.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48219955]what makes it illegal?[/QUOTE]
the helm is opened face, the ears aren't covered, the knees and elbows aren't protected and no gauntlets.
for it to work, you'd have to add so many things that the kit would stop looking like a roman kit and more like a generic sca one.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48219955]what makes it illegal?[/QUOTE]
Probably the helmet being so open.
Stabs, even if not allowed, can still happen.
Some dude from Poland I believe died not too long ago in a reenactment event, because his helmet didn't fully cover his face and another participant accidentally stabbed him in the face.
[editline]16th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;48219980]the helm is opened face, the ears aren't covered, the knees and elbows aren't protected and no gauntlets.
for it to work, you'd have to add so many things that the kit would stop looking like a roman kit and more like a generic sca one.[/QUOTE]
Damnit you. At least I was right.
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;48219980]the helm is opened face, the ears aren't covered, the knees and elbows aren't protected and no gauntlets.
for it to work, you'd have to add so many things that the kit would stop looking like a roman kit and more like a generic sca one.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the SCA could solve a lot of problems by wearing those mensur fencer goggles.
[img]http://www.thatguysproducts.com/images/goggles-group.jpg[/img]
sadly the rules say that the whole face needs to be covered and i don't think they'll be changing that one anytime soon. still need protection for your face when someone thrusts at your jaw with a pike/spear/pole-arm. and the visor needs to be placed in such a way your face doesn't touch it when the helm is pushed towards you. ugly grills are here to stay.
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;48220054]sadly the rules say that the whole face needs to be covered and i don't think they'll be changing that one anytime soon. still need protection for your face when someone thrusts at your jaw with a pike/spear/pole-arm. and the visor needs to be placed in such a way your face doesn't touch it when the helm is pushed towards you. ugly grills are here to stay.[/QUOTE]
Can't even have a fencing mesh? cus if so I'd heartily recommend jiri krondaks helmets, they have a more discrete look to them:
[img]http://fabri-armorum.com/english/foto-big/sport-sword51.jpg[/img]
I really like the look and compromise in his "fencing" helmets.
hm i should look into that. a quick read through the rules say that a full face mesh is okay as long as the screening is at least 1.6mm thick. that would be a much better alternative to a bar grill for an open faced helm.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48220019]Maybe the SCA could solve a lot of problems by wearing those mensur fencer goggles.
[img]http://www.thatguysproducts.com/images/goggles-group.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Yeah I'd rather wear a full helmet than this. Those goggles would not make me feel safe at all.
[QUOTE=Sunkite;48220144]Yeah I'd rather wear a full helmet than this. Those goggles would not make me feel safe at all.[/QUOTE]
you're not supposed to be:
[t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Young_man_with_cheek_scar_German_fencing.jpg[/t]
thumb'd for bit gory
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