• HEMA/Historical Warfare v. 1 "Strike in and hasten forth; rush to, let it hit, or go by."
    422 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;48262178]First man to fall loses. I called him earlier today and he might be using a Long sword to better counter swings but he's not sure.[/QUOTE] Really? Just ignore strikes altogether and go to grappling. [quote]If you want to avenge yourself, break the four openings with skill: double above, transmute below correctly. I say to you truthfully: no one can defend himself without danger; And frighten at no man, Stand and look at him earnestly; if you have correctly learned, he will scarcely manage to strike.[/quote] Do what liechtenauer says, remember that no man can defend himself without being in danger, so I want you to strike and be ready with your second strike as he moves to defend from the first. Strike true and wind or change through as you move in. Close fast and put your leg behind his and topple him backwards.
coming in with a few links and info i think every regular here knows about roland warzecha/dimicator but if you don't: he's a great hema instructor who got a lot of attention, both in and outside of hema, for his reconstruction of the viking sword+shield fighting style i.e. [video=youtube;dkhpqAGdZPc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhpqAGdZPc[/video] [video=youtube;FrzOHN2rzE8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrzOHN2rzE8&feature=youtu.be[/video] if you haven't seen them before, i highly recommend you do around two weeks ago, [URL="https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.326095754190625.1073741858.266934476773420&type=3"]he posted an album on facebook[/URL] that was dedicated to high medieval shield and sword techniques e.g. kite/heater shields. it's very informative and i suggest anyone vaguely interested in sword and shield techniques to check it out. be sure to read the descriptions for each photo. he's also writing a book detailing his reconstruction of sword and shield combat from the viking age to the high middle ages so that should have a lot more info. also if anyone here is interested in roman reenacting/reconstruction, history, combat/warfare, and information on putting together your own roman kit, i highly recommend this website: [URL]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/index.html[/URL] do note that you have to be a member to see most of the photos and attachments but it's free and easy to become a member so that shouldn't be a problem. there's also a ton of info on constructing your own stuff as well. they go into greek stuff too but it's the romans that get the spotlight. also just a tad bit of info on historical mail. there's a lot of videos online of people hitting mail they bought online and assuming historical mail performed exactly the same way. this problem is not something that's exclusive to mail of course. people do the same thing with plate and scale armour. however there's very few people who actually make mail that resemble historical mail compared to armourers who make plate armour. so in what ways does modern mail generally differ from historical mail? * The thickness of the wire is generally too light for the diameter of the link, making it lighter but less capable of resisting a weapon. * Holes are made with a punch rather than a drift. This leaves a lot less metal around the rivet to help secure it. * Rivet holes are either too large or not centred. Both will leave too little material on one or both sides and the link will tear too easily. * The links are hammered way too thin (probably to make them easier to punch), but this greatly reduces the strength of the link * Rivets are incorrectly set. If a rivet is not peened tightly, the link will pull apart too easily * There isn't enough overlap in the lapped section of the link to create a decent join * Wrong shape rivet hole. Indian mail has rectangular holes. Historical wedge-riveted mail has ovoid holes. Rectangular holes tear very easily at the corners. Circular or ovoid holes are much stronger * Incorrect metallurgy. Mild steel (or even so-called modern "iron") is not as ductile as bloomery iron and it is more likely to snap upon impact instead of stretching/bending dan howard and a couple of others have a bigger discussion here: [URL]http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189[/URL] however this does not mean that historical mail is superior to every modern piece of mail. a lot are worse but there are some that are a lot better too. this happens for plate armour too e.g. historical gothic plate harnesses were generally made out of refined wrought iron which is inferior to something like 1050 spring steel. it's just important to remember that if you intend to conduct an experiment dealing with historical weapons and armour, it's incredibly important to know the details of their quality and construction instead of relying on modern pieces that only "look" historical.
Update on that duel. I won. He went with a longsword so we could make the fight last a little longer. I went with my trusty claymore. Manged to break his guard and kicked him in the gut, knocking out his wind and landing him on the floor. Since he was the first man down, I won. Shook hands and went to get a drink. Good fight, tho.
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;48320186]Update on that duel. I won. He went with a longsword so we could make the fight last a little longer. I went with my trusty claymore. Manged to break his guard and kicked him in the gut, knocking out his wind and landing him on the floor. Since he was the first man down, I won. Shook hands and went to get a drink. Good fight, tho.[/QUOTE] Good job! [editline]30th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=kimchimafia;48320169]coming in with a few links and info i think every regular here knows about roland warzecha/dimicator but if you don't: he's a great hema instructor who got a lot of attention, both in and outside of hema, for his reconstruction of the viking sword+shield fighting style i.e. [video=youtube;dkhpqAGdZPc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhpqAGdZPc[/video] [video=youtube;FrzOHN2rzE8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrzOHN2rzE8&feature=youtu.be[/video] if you haven't seen them before, i highly recommend you do around two weeks ago, [URL="https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.326095754190625.1073741858.266934476773420&type=3"]he posted an album on facebook[/URL] that was dedicated to high medieval shield and sword techniques e.g. kite/heater shields. it's very informative and i suggest anyone vaguely interested in sword and shield techniques to check it out. be sure to read the descriptions for each photo. he's also writing a book detailing his reconstruction of sword and shield combat from the viking age to the high middle ages so that should have a lot more info. also if anyone here is interested in roman reenacting/reconstruction, history, combat/warfare, and information on putting together your own roman kit, i highly recommend this website: [URL]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/index.html[/URL] do note that you have to be a member to see most of the photos and attachments but it's free and easy to become a member so that shouldn't be a problem. there's also a ton of info on constructing your own stuff as well. they go into greek stuff too but it's the romans that get the spotlight. also just a tad bit of info on historical mail. there's a lot of videos online of people hitting mail they bought online and assuming historical mail performed exactly the same way. this problem is not something that's exclusive to mail of course. people do the same thing with plate and scale armour. however there's very few people who actually make mail that resemble historical mail compared to armourers who make plate armour. so in what ways does modern mail generally differ from historical mail? * The thickness of the wire is generally too light for the diameter of the link, making it lighter but less capable of resisting a weapon. * Holes are made with a punch rather than a drift. This leaves a lot less metal around the rivet to help secure it. * Rivet holes are either too large or not centred. Both will leave too little material on one or both sides and the link will tear too easily. * The links are hammered way too thin (probably to make them easier to punch), but this greatly reduces the strength of the link * Rivets are incorrectly set. If a rivet is not peened tightly, the link will pull apart too easily * There isn't enough overlap in the lapped section of the link to create a decent join * Wrong shape rivet hole. Indian mail has rectangular holes. Historical wedge-riveted mail has ovoid holes. Rectangular holes tear very easily at the corners. Circular or ovoid holes are much stronger * Incorrect metallurgy. Mild steel (or even so-called modern "iron") is not as ductile as bloomery iron and it is more likely to snap upon impact instead of stretching/bending dan howard and a couple of others have a bigger discussion here: [URL]http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189[/URL] however this does not mean that historical mail is superior to every modern piece of mail. a lot are worse but there are some that are a lot better too. this happens for plate armour too e.g. historical gothic plate harnesses were generally made out of refined wrought iron which is inferior to something like 1050 spring steel. it's just important to remember that if you intend to conduct an experiment dealing with historical weapons and armour, it's incredibly important to know the details of their quality and construction instead of relying on modern pieces that only "look" historical.[/QUOTE] My instructor had told me that in practice on moving targets, spears weren't as effective against chainmail as one would hope, as it'd more probably slide off the links and get caught in the sides rather than stopping dead in the middle and piercing through. He had also told me that a longsword could damage chainmail by virtue of splitting the rivets and opening tears. Two things I desperately want to try out.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48325996]Good job! [editline]30th July 2015[/editline] My instructor had told me that in practice on moving targets, spears weren't as effective against chainmail as one would hope, as it'd more probably slide off the links and get caught in the sides rather than stopping dead in the middle and piercing through. He had also told me that a longsword could damage chainmail by virtue of splitting the rivets and opening tears. Two things I desperately want to try out.[/QUOTE] it shouldn't be too hard to damage commercial riveted mail. i've seen that pole weapons generally do much better than longswords at breaking or splitting the rivets apart when thrusting. obviously stuff like the pollaxe do very well against mail (in terms of breaking rivets) even when "cutting". stiffer and skinnier longswords work very well against some types of mail by simply passing through it without bothering to split the rivets apart.
[QUOTE=kimchimafia;48328322]it shouldn't be too hard to damage commercial riveted mail. i've seen that pole weapons generally do much better than longswords at breaking or splitting the rivets apart when thrusting. obviously stuff like the pollaxe do very well against mail (in terms of breaking rivets) even when "cutting". stiffer and skinnier longswords work very well against some types of mail by simply passing through it without bothering to split the rivets apart.[/QUOTE] Even historically correct kinds? that's interesting.
not quite sure about the exact damage a pollaxe would do on historical mail since i've never seen someone test it. it should do a lot better than commercial mail though. but yeah some longsword points can definitely go through some types of historical mail without splitting the rivets. not all the way through obviously but definitely enough to seriously injure. although it won't work on every type though i.e. mail with tighter links like this mail bevor. [IMG]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k26/Bwaze/Churburgbevor.jpg[/IMG]
I really want to take Historical Fencing classes, yet there are very few in Atlanta. I was looking for instructors, and I found a master called John Clements. Just from his page he sounds amazing. I was wondering if anyone on Facepunch heard his name, and could confirm his prowess before I commit to joining his school?
john clements? he's a very controversial figure in arma and hema from what i heard. there's a lot of dirty talk about arma, clements and his method of teaching especially about how exclusive it is or how he doesn't teach the correct stuff. if there isn't any hema place around your area, it still might be worth it to try out arma. then again i don't know how easy it would be for a new member to do that. [editline]3rd August 2015[/editline] also, here's some sword and rotella form [video=youtube;jtBLsw56-3Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtBLsw56-3Y[/video]
Relative newcomer here, been doing this for a couple of months. I'll probably be getting my first personal synthetic training sword soon, which'll be nice. I might be moving cities next year to Brisbane where apparently they're more insistent on you having your own equipment from the start so I figured I should start picking up gear since my school was taking orders at the last session. Hopefully I can get the bare minimum of protective gear for a decent price, I had been planning to get things slowly due to the price and the fact that I can borrow loaner gear from my school. I'm glad I didn't start in Brisbane if that's the requirement, having a high entry price barrier might have stopped me from getting into HEMA to begin with.
[QUOTE=Mafia Insider;48363800]Relative newcomer here, been doing this for a couple of months. I'll probably be getting my first personal synthetic training sword soon, which'll be nice. I might be moving cities next year to Brisbane where apparently they're more insistent on you having your own equipment from the start so I figured I should start picking up gear since my school was taking orders at the last session. Hopefully I can get the bare minimum of protective gear for a decent price, I had been planning to get things slowly due to the price and the fact that I can borrow loaner gear from my school. I'm glad I didn't start in Brisbane if that's the requirement, having a high entry price barrier might have stopped me from getting into HEMA to begin with.[/QUOTE] Faits d'armes has a good starter pack, for a decent price, I don't know if they ship to europe though. [url]www.faitsdarmes.com[/url] (its based in france but the site is in english) Also re: John Clements, I consider him to be a decent teacher with good understanding of the source materials, in fact, almost everything he says can be clearly traced to some of the treatises. As far as interpretations go, he's fairly solid. Just look at some of his student, like Joey Marmaroto or Ryan Woo. The problems with Clements start with attitude, mostly. As mentioned, he kept his curriculum to himself, and wouldn't share his interpretations (at a time when he had better access to materials than others), so people are understandably mad at him. However, I retain that people should disdain him for his attitude and not for his swordsmanship. Sure, he might not be the best around but IMHO no-one is. We're a 100 years from calling someone "really good". [editline]3rd August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Gnorm57;48359708]I really want to take Historical Fencing classes, yet there are very few in Atlanta. I was looking for instructors, and I found a master called John Clements. Just from his page he sounds amazing. I was wondering if anyone on Facepunch heard his name, and could confirm his prowess before I commit to joining his school?[/QUOTE] I don't know who's leading the ARMA school in Atlanta, could be Clements, could be someone else. I don't think that they will teach you bad stuff necessarily. However, I want you to make sure you keep an open mind and dismiss any talk of "oh this and that school is awful" because if you want to be a martial artist, such talk will never help. ALWAYS experience things for yourself in full before commiting opinion or judgment. This goes for any school, not just ARMA. I'm mentioning it specifically now because of ARMA's reputation, but really; don't let any school or instructor talk shit about others. Reason and discuss. Why would a certain interpretation or technique be worse than another? Figure out for yourself. Remember that the only constant in martial arts is your own self.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48364258]Faits d'armes has a good starter pack, for a decent price, I don't know if they ship to europe though. [url]www.faitsdarmes.com[/url] (its based in france but the site is in english) [/QUOTE] Thanks, although I was going to at least initially use the group ordering my school was using, which was [url=http://www.thehemashop.com/]this store.[/url] Also, Europe? Is [url=http://i.imgur.com/v3LhIZu.png]my[/url] Flagdog not working properly on your end? I'm in Australia, not Europe. What would you guys consider basic starting equipment that a school could reasonably expect somebody to go in with? I'd assume it'd be gambison, helmet, sword, gloves. Although if you're getting that much you might as well get the full package with elbow/knee and throat protection.
No, I just said the wrong thing. I did mean to say Australia. [editline]4th August 2015[/editline] Also, level of equipment depends on the school. Here in Sweden most schools (even the ones that are just groups of people meeting) have loan gear. I'd argue the minimum to be just a steel sword. Unless the group only does sparring.
And I'm back from France! The event was rather dissapointing. It wasn't very well organized and the one workshop I participated in went nowhere and the horses got really stressed out due to the heat and sensory overload. It was still fun though! Has anything interesting been happening while I was gone?
[QUOTE=Sunkite;48371276] It was still fun though! Has anything interesting been happening while I was gone?[/QUOTE] G-Strogg challenged a man who slighted him to trial by combat and decapitated him with a zweihander but not much else worth mentioning happened.
[QUOTE=Mafia Insider;48374112]G-Strogg challenged a man who slighted him to trial by combat and decapitated him with a zweihander but not much else worth mentioning happened.[/QUOTE] Hey...the club won't have a zweihander until next year.
[QUOTE=Mafia Insider;48374112]G-Strogg challenged a man who slighted him to trial by combat and decapitated him with a [B]zweihander[/B] but not much else worth mentioning happened.[/QUOTE] A bit of fun is always good. But this has reminded me of something. Everyone in here are well aware of that Zweihander is simply the german term for a greatsword, right? Zweihander is not a specific sword like fx. a Claymore is. It's simply what the germans called a greatsword. It bothers me slightly when you chat with people or see in videogames that there is both a greatsword and another sword called zweihander. [QUOTE=G-Strogg;48374297]Hey...the club won't have a zweihander until next year.[/QUOTE] You guys are getting a greatsword? Neat. Where are you ordering it from?
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48374297]Hey...the club won't have a zweihander until next year.[/QUOTE] Just tape two longswords together and call it a day.
[QUOTE=Sunkite;48374810]A bit of fun is always good. But this has reminded me of something. Everyone in here are well aware of that Zweihander is simply the german term for a greatsword, right? Zweihander is not a specific sword like fx. a Claymore is. It's simply what the germans called a greatsword. It bothers me slightly when you chat with people or see in videogames that there is both a greatsword and another sword called zweihander. You guys are getting a greatsword? Neat. Where are you ordering it from?[/QUOTE] For clarification, it will be our instructors personal one. But he's ordering from Regenyei. I myself might get a greatsword later on, but then I want this design: [img]https://40.media.tumblr.com/f7dca87d7610eca9942ad8f615481ce6/tumblr_np7hmsd9Jo1rrjmgoo7_540.jpg[/img] Will see if I can find a smith willing to do it.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48376571]For clarification, it will be our instructors personal one. But he's ordering from Regenyei. I myself might get a greatsword later on, but then I want this design: [img]https://40.media.tumblr.com/f7dca87d7610eca9942ad8f615481ce6/tumblr_np7hmsd9Jo1rrjmgoo7_540.jpg[/img] Will see if I can find a smith willing to do it.[/QUOTE] I think a smith in Poland can make a greatsword for you. I can't remember his name, but my teacher knows him. I'll ask him for it.
[QUOTE=Sunkite;48379767]I think a smith in Poland can make a greatsword for you. I can't remember his name, but my teacher knows him. I'll ask him for it.[/QUOTE] Right now I'm looking at Pavel Moc again, but I'm open for any suggestions. And speaking of greatswords, I've taken to separating montante from zweihänder/greatsword since there's a difference of about 20 cm in their length.
Anyone here who is going to participate in the ILHG tournament?
Nope!
Awh man. Get your shit together and start showing up at some tournaments so we can fence against each other!
I think it'll be awhile until I enter international tournaments. I'll join a domestic one next spring and then we'll see where it goes.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48389933]I think it'll be awhile until I enter international tournaments. I'll join a domestic one next spring and then we'll see where it goes.[/QUOTE] And you wouldn't show up at Swordfish either right?
[QUOTE=Sunkite;48392189]And you wouldn't show up at Swordfish either right?[/QUOTE] Haha, no you won't see me there. You might be able to catch me in the audience for the Swedish Mastership.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48393158]Haha, no you won't see me there. You might be able to catch me in the audience for the Swedish Mastership.[/QUOTE] I'll give you a PM if I attend it then!
You'll have to organise a quick trip then, as the masters are the 29-30th of august :P
Then I'll definetly not attend it. Haha.
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