Killing people who commit muder or any serious crimes - IE Dexter the TV show - General

Vigilantes are bad. If there is a flaw with how the government handles a crime then that is something that needs to be fixed, people shouldn't be taking it into their own (equally flawed, or worse) hands. Also Dexter is a sociopath and part of a television show. He doesn't kill bad people because he wants justice, he kills because he likes to kill and he takes it out on bad people rather than good people. Plus its a television show. And he is a sociopath. The idea of the death penalty and the like is something worthy of a whole debate on its own, so I won't argue that. Personally I believe that the death penalty can be adequate for some people, but it should be reserved for 100% evidence and for the most heinous of crimes and where there isn't a chance of behavioral correction, which is something we rarely see nowadays.

[QUOTE=Tacosheller;32629906]not everyone deserves a second chance[/QUOTE] That would depend whether they will fuck up their second chance or not.

[QUOTE=Gekkosan;32630091]That would depend whether they will fuck up their second chance or not.[/QUOTE] Someone who says 'if you let me free I'll just kill again!" is not someone you just let back out into society, without heavy reformation/rehabilitation(which is what prisons should be about but sadly aren't anymore)

The whole point of Justice is not to become the monster you are trying to put away. Lynching a murderer makes you just as barbaric as the one you're hanging.

[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;32630146]The whole point of Justice is not to become the monster you are trying to put away[/QUOTE] No, "Justice: The quality of being fair and reasonable." Justice is in order to balance what is good and what is evil. And all the stuff in between like fraud etc. :P OP: I don't think killing anyone is ok, also what if the person was truly sorry after, then send them to jail instead of killing them? But what about those who just say they're sorry? Don't take the chance and just throw em in jail for life, that's the best punishment if they don't get killed or commit suicide. I can't imagine sitting in a cell for my life, it would be horrible. The farthest i'd go on the subject is solitary confinement for life.

So we do the same evil act the murderer has done so that we may rid of his evil?

[QUOTE=Tacosheller;32630128]Someone who says 'if you let me free I'll just kill again!" is not someone you just let back out into society, without heavy reformation/rehabilitation(which is what prisons should be about but sadly aren't anymore)[/QUOTE] Obviously, but if someone got a second chance and he had no apparent intentions of killing again, he would never say "i will kill again if you let me free muahahahah!"

[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;32630146]The whole point of Justice is not to become the monster you are trying to put away. Lynching a murderer makes you just as barbaric as the one you're hanging.[/QUOTE] justice is giving punishment equal to the crime committed upon a criminal

[QUOTE=Tacosheller;32630128]Someone who says 'if you let me free I'll just kill again!" is not someone you just let back out into society, without heavy reformation/rehabilitation(which is what prisons should be about but sadly aren't anymore)[/QUOTE] [url=http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1126527]No one deserves anything[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism]because free will doesn't exist.[/url] I'm not at fault for anything I do, a rich person isn't at fault for what they've gained, and a criminal isn't at fault for committing a crime. You can't say some people deserve a second chance, because they didn't do anything more than anyone else. On the opposite side, you can't say they deserve some form of punishment either. You obviously don't want them to be loose, because it would harm others or yourself, so you should rehabilitate them, just like you teach a child to be nice.

[QUOTE=Magistrate;32630283]justice is giving punishment equal to the crime committed upon a criminal[/QUOTE] no it isn't [editline]4th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Rubs10;32630343][url=http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1126527]No one deserves anything[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism]because free will doesn't exist.[/url] Any action that anyone takes is just a response, whether it be a movement or a thought, so I'm not at fault for anything I do, a rich person isn't at fault for what they've gained, and a criminal isn't at fault for committing a crime. You can't say some people deserve a second chance, because they didn't really do anything more than others.[/QUOTE] You're funny.

[QUOTE=bull3tmagn3t;32630205]No, "Justice: The quality of being fair and reasonable." Justice is in order to balance what is good and what is evil. [/QUOTE] The idea of "balance" suggests that you do something similar to the thing that created imbalance, but in the opposite direction. If a great evil is murdering, is a great good the death penalty? Does executing someone make being dead, or living without a loved one any more "fair"? Is it reasonable to kill someone for this "fairness" that can't be had? I'd say that a great good to "balance" a great evil such as murder would be teaching empathy and understanding, showing murder for what it is, rather than glorifying in a different context.

There are three main things being brought up in this thread: 1. Vigilantism - I think that the OP meant that in his world this would be a law, he wouldn't go out with his friends and lynch every registered sex offender in sight. Anyways, this is a bad thing, as stuff gets messy when people take justice into their own hands, and make judiciary decisions by themselves. 2. The death penalty - The death penalty is a bad thing, because someone could be innocent. There is always a chance of the person being innocent, someone could've screwed up a DNA test [i]just right[/i] so the DNA results are equal to another prime suspect (hey, it could happen, unlikely as it is). If there was a way to be sure of it, I still challenge the death penalty on the grounds that no one deserves death. Death falls under the category of "cruel and unnecessary/unusual punishment", as it would be just as good for society to leave them locked up. 3. Rehabilitation - There is ALWAYS a chance for rehabilitation, even if the person seems to be permanently insane/a criminal. There could be a chance that they learn that what they did was wrong, and become better people. I'm not saying this should get them out of jail, but they should be given a chance to be rehabilitated, for their own benefit. It is better to have a psychopath in jail stay crazy and evil than a dead man who had potential to have his mind healed.

[QUOTE=Rubs10;32630343][url=http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1126527]No one deserves anything[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism]because free will doesn't exist.[/url] I'm not at fault for anything I do, a rich person isn't at fault for what they've gained, and a criminal isn't at fault for committing a crime. You can't say some people deserve a second chance, because they didn't do anything more than anyone else. On the opposite side, you can't say they deserve some form of punishment either. You obviously don't want them to be loose, because it would harm others or yourself, so you should rehabilitate them, just like you teach a child to be nice.[/QUOTE] That entire theory is based on the idea that free will doesn't exist so uh

[QUOTE=Tacosheller;32632131]That entire theory is based on the idea that free will doesn't exist so uh[/QUOTE] So uh what?

Really when you realize that a persons actions are based on there environment, genes and health you would rather try to stop the problem instead of taking revenge.

[QUOTE=Rubs10;32630343][url=http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1126527]No one deserves anything[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism]because free will doesn't exist.[/url] I'm not at fault for anything I do, a rich person isn't at fault for what they've gained, and a criminal isn't at fault for committing a crime.[/QUOTE] Bullshit. [QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32633154]Really when you realize that a persons actions are based on there environment, genes and health you would rather try to stop the problem instead of taking revenge.[/QUOTE] And the problem is families. Genes don't mean much yet, but the life people live and they shit they get exposed to.. those shape people into all kinda different sorts of people.. like some psycho dumb fuck killers. The way I see it anyway.

I believe everybody should have the right to defend themselves, lethally if necessary, however death penalty for murder or rape after the fact is retarded. Not to mention taking into consideration people who have been wrongfully imprisoned or prosecuted for the wrong crime, which happens more often than most people would like to consider.

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;32635476]Not to mention taking into consideration people who have been wrongfully imprisoned or prosecuted for the wrong crime, which happens more often than most people would like to consider.[/QUOTE] Yeah like in the 90's, prison populations were skyrocketing and the crime rates remained unaffected by it. So cause and effect? I don't think so.

[QUOTE=Shiftyze;32620447]I personally think it is okay to have someone killed for killing another or someone who has no right to even live in the world we do. What value does that person hold to be kept alive for killing or committing a serious act to an innocent person? Why must we spend our taxes (From America btw) to keep that person in a place where he can get free food, a free home, and free medical care? This idea sprung from me seeing the News section where people who murdered a child molester are going to prison for something I think was right. To me it was right because why do we need someone like that in our world. Those kind of people are monstrous, you know they will never stop just like someone who smokes cigarettes.[/QUOTE] 1) no justice system is 100% incorruptible, transparent, and foolproof 2) it is incredibly dangerous to allow the government to have the power to execute citizens for any reason (slippery slope) 3) you have a very skewed idea of what "right" means (though I don't buy into the idea of rights) 4) justice is supposed to be unbiased, ethical, and ideally a mixture of punishment and rehabilitation for reintegration into society. it should never be about revenge of any type (personal or societal)

Here's an interesting argument against "maximum" punishments like death: If someone rapes someone and they're condemned to death then there's nothing worse that can be done to them (leaving aside torture). Therefore, if there are any witnesses (like the rape victim) then they can either lower their chance of being caught by killing the witness and face no greater penalty if caught anyway, or have an increased chance of being caught/found guilty and face the same punishment. The choice is obvious for those who can stomach murder. At least life imprisonment can be adjusted depending on severity of the crime, the person's mental health/personality and rehabilition/repentance.

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;32632560]So uh what?[/QUOTE] So uh our entire everything system and how we interact goes out the window

[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;32636674]Here's an interesting argument against "maximum" punishments like death: If someone rapes someone and they're condemned to death then there's nothing worse that can be done to them (leaving aside torture). Therefore, if there are any witnesses (like the rape victim) then they can either lower their chance of being caught by killing the witness and face no greater penalty if caught anyway, or have an increased chance of being caught/found guilty and face the same punishment. The choice is obvious for those who can stomach murder. At least life imprisonment can be adjusted depending on severity of the crime, the person's mental health/personality and rehabilition/repentance.[/QUOTE] What is your point? That we should have an eye for an eye system?

[QUOTE=Contag;32636795]So uh our entire everything system and how we interact goes out the window[/QUOTE] Are you suggesting that you're going to start killing people because freewill doesn't exist?

[QUOTE=Rubs10;32637095]Are you suggesting that you're going to start killing people because freewill doesn't exist?[/QUOTE] Why bother suggesting it? If I was going to do it, I'm going to do it and that's that. I'm not responsible for it at all.

[QUOTE=Contag;32637182]Why bother suggesting it? If I was going to do it, I'm going to do it and that's that. I'm not responsible for it at all.[/QUOTE] The question is whether knowledge of the lack of free will is a factor in you murdering someone.

[QUOTE=Rubs10;32637217]The question is whether knowledge of the lack of free will is a factor in you murdering someone.[/QUOTE] Why does that question matter?

[QUOTE=Contag;32637298]Why does that question matter?[/QUOTE] Your argument was that people will interact radically differently with the knowledge that free-will doesn't exist. It's comparable to arguing that everyone will start using drugs if you legalize them.

[QUOTE=Contag;32637298]Why does that question matter?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Contag;32636795]So uh our entire everything system and how we interact goes out the window[/QUOTE] You just said it would make difference, now you are asking why "does it makes a difference?" matters. [editline]5th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Gekkosan;32635358]Bullshit.[/QUOTE] So are you suggesting that if you transplanted a law abiding citizen's "soul" or something into a criminals body, that this new creation would act differently? The whole idea of "deserving" is based on the idea that people judge each other's actions based on their own standards; as if other people somehow live in a body wholly equivalent to their own body and yet somehow are able to magically make different decisions. "If I'm a nice person, and other people aren't nice people, then I must just be better then them." When it reality it's more like "If I like to do A, and other people don't like to do A, then [initiate hate response]"

[QUOTE=Contag;32636795]So uh our entire everything system and how we interact goes out the window[/QUOTE] Yours, maybe.

[QUOTE=RyanDv3;32637648]So are you suggesting that if you transplanted a law abiding citizen's "soul" or something into a criminals body, that this new creation would act differently?[/QUOTE] Seeing as soul is basically you and your thoughts/mind/brain, yes, he would act differently in a different body. He would be baffled though, and the criminal too. But I was just saying that free will does exist. People can make decisions and they do them, and sometimes these decisions or acts lead into other consequences like prison and shit.