Do you want that thought experiment on fair grounds? Because you didn't give fair grounds to it, you put yourself in a preferable position for moral high ground reasons.
Here's a fair version of that.
You stand in a giant room. There is a button. Press this button, someone dies but you are rewarded with a huge amount of pleasure. Not money, but pure pleasure from the most cerebral centre of your brain. You know there is no god in this thought experiment, there is no consequences and nothing that should or could stop you. The closer you get to the button, the more you feel the primal pull of it affecting your pleasure centre
what would you do
because you gave a very unfair one.
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873247]Wow language mister. I didn't call you a heathen.
And why [i][b]should[/b][/i] You do that?[/QUOTE]
I would never do that. I'm against violence.
But you seem to be happy to conjure up the imagry and ideas that those without a god are too incapable of moral actions
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873222]Oh I agree
it's the rest of your bullshit that's offensive.[/QUOTE]
Saying that pressing the button is wrong? Is that the offensive part? What about the part where I just respond to what he answered the question with? Tell me, would you press the button? Lets even say it is a one time deal, so there is no chance of someone else pressing the button and you dying.
Calling a thought experiment invalid doesn't do anything. You are just dodging the question. It is an important question because it outlines fundamental axioms and decision affecting concepts.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873185]No, you are just godless. If I added the qualifier of "No negative consequences, but Elohim will know" that would stop me. It wouldn't stop you.
Some poor sod gets killed because someone thinks it's all about him.[/QUOTE]
You seemed to have forgotten that in this hypothetical situation my brain has been altered so that I would feel no remorse and would anticipate no remorse.
Would knowledge that Elohim is disappointed with your actions be a negative consequence for you? Then your brain would be altered too, to not care if Elohim is disappointed or not.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873270]Do you want that thought experiment on fair grounds? Because you didn't give fair grounds to it, you put yourself in a preferable position for moral high ground reasons.
Here's a fair version of that.
You stand in a giant room. There is a button. Press this button, someone dies but you are rewarded with a huge amount of pleasure. Not money, but pure pleasure from the most cerebral centre of your brain. You know there is no god in this thought experiment, there is no consequences and nothing that should or could stop you. The closer you get to the button, the more you feel the primal pull of it affecting your pleasure centre
what would you do
because you gave a very unfair one.[/QUOTE]
The key here is how the belief in God might affect one's actions. To assume no God you have taken away any meaning to the hypothetical.
Then answer my thought experiment.
I would not press the button for a million dollars. In my version of the thought experiment, yes, I would probably end up hitting the button after using all my will power to not do give into pleasure.
[QUOTE=Ziks;43873290]You seemed to have forgotten that in this hypothetical situation my brain has been altered so that I would feel no remorse and would anticipate no remorse.
Would knowledge that Elohim is disappointed with your actions be a negative consequence for you? Then your brain would be altered too, to not care if Elohim is disappointed or not.[/QUOTE]
The difference is that guilt and remorse are purely emotional. The desire to please God is rational.
The key is what the rational decision would be.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873291]The key here is how the belief in God might affect one's actions. To assume no God you have taken away any meaning to the hypothetical.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe in a god so when you ask me to do that, that's not fair
If I did believe in a god, the fear of hell would change my opinion and I would also have to discount much of what I understand about the universe as obviously false so I don't see how it's balanced or fair or reasonable.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873311]The difference is that guilt and remorse are purely emotional. The desire to please God is rational.
The key is what the rational decision would be.[/QUOTE]
What? The desire to please god is also emotional.
Literally the entire human motivation and action reinforcement system is driven emotionally.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873303]Then answer my thought experiment.
I would not press the button for a million dollars. In my version of the thought experiment, yes, I would probably end up hitting the button after using all my will power to not do give into pleasure.[/QUOTE]
In your situation, with the assumption of no God, I would definitely push the button. There would be no rational reason to not push it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873311]The difference is that guilt and remorse are purely emotional. The desire to please God is rational.
The key is what the rational decision would be.[/QUOTE]
so you can put a qualifier on it but no one else can?
good debate guys
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873328]In your situation, with the assumption of no God, I would definitely push the button. There would be no rational reason to not push it.[/QUOTE]
So you admit fear of god is the only thing that makes you moral?
wow
very rarely do I get to hear that but thanks
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873315]I don't believe in a god so when you ask me to do that, that's not fair
If I did believe in a god, the fear of hell would change my opinion and I would also have to discount much of what I understand about the universe as obviously false so I don't see how it's balanced or fair or reasonable.[/QUOTE]
A fair hypothetical would allow the person in question to decide whether they believe in God and see how that affects their decision.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873270]Do you want that thought experiment on fair grounds? Because you didn't give fair grounds to it, you put yourself in a preferable position for moral high ground reasons.
Here's a fair version of that.
You stand in a giant room. There is a button. Press this button, someone dies but you are rewarded with a huge amount of pleasure. Not money, but pure pleasure from the most cerebral centre of your brain. You know there is no god in this thought experiment, there is no consequences and nothing that should or could stop you. The closer you get to the button, the more you feel the primal pull of it affecting your pleasure centre
[/QUOTE]
I presented you with a decision, you presented me with the inside of a barrel at the end of a waterfall.
Let me give it a third go with hopes that we can find a middle ground.
You are in a big room. There is a button which would cause the murder of a random person in the world and it would reward you with an immense amount of pleasure. You do not know whether or not El exists. You would recieve a considerable amount of pain if you do not press the button. You are told that if you press the button there will be no negative consequences except that El [I]would[/I] know.
Do you press the button?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873330]So you admit fear of god is the only thing that makes you moral?
wow
very rarely do I get to hear that but thanks[/QUOTE]
Nice strawman. I never mentioned anything about fear.
[QUOTE=Ziks;43873290]You seemed to have forgotten that in this hypothetical situation my brain has been altered so that I would feel no remorse and would anticipate no remorse.
Would knowledge that Elohim is disappointed with your actions be a negative consequence for you? Then your brain would be altered too, to not care if Elohim is disappointed or not.[/QUOTE]
It is altered after the fact. The alteration does not affect your decision making.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873343]A fair hypothetical would allow the person in question to decide whether they believe in God and see how that affects their decision.[/QUOTE]
In either situation I would hesitate to push the button for as long as I could. This thought experiment doesn't allow you to leave or do anything but not push or push, it ends when you push but not when you don't. So is there a time limit or do you just sit there until you rot to death waiting for a experiment to end while your body rots and never push the button?
[QUOTE=Ziks;43873325]What? The desire to please god is also emotional.
Literally the entire human motivation and action reinforcement system is driven emotionally.[/QUOTE]
To follow an objective moral system with real consequences is to be rational because the system ACTUALLY exists. There IS right and and there IS wrong. To disobey that system, once you've acknowledged it's existence, would be irrational.
To not push the button within this system is purely rational, but without this objective system the rationality falls apart and only emotion continues.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873350]Nice strawman. I never mentioned anything about fear.[/QUOTE]
well you're talking about god in relation to morals and how you would act with, or without one
a key aspect of that relationship is fear of god
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873379]well you're talking about god in relation to morals and how you would act with, or without one
a key aspect of that relationship is fear of god[/QUOTE]
It really isn't. Literally none of my moral actions are based on fear.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873346]I presented you with a decision, you presented me with the inside of a barrel at the end of a waterfall.
Let me give it a third go with hopes that we can find a middle ground.
You are in a big room. There is a button which would cause the murder of a random person in the world and it would reward you with an immense amount of pleasure. You do not know whether or not El exists. You would recieve a considerable amount of pain if you do not press the button. You are told that if you press the button there will be no negative consequences except that El [I]would[/I] know.
Do you press the button?[/QUOTE]
does the thought experiemnt end when I don't push it or do I suffer through endless torment for not pushing it
you're saying you would go through hell to not piss off god
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873383]It really isn't. Literally none of my moral actions are based on fear.[/QUOTE]
consciously sure
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873360]It is altered after the fact. The alteration does not affect your decision making.[/QUOTE]
In that case I misunderstood, I assumed that my brain had been altered to remove the concept of remorse before I made the decision.
If I was presented the decision with the promise that I would have the guilt artificially removed after pressing the button I would decline, mainly because anticipated guilt would still apply on a fundamental emotional level while I was deliberating on which action to perform.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873391]consciously sure[/QUOTE]
This isn't an argument.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873379]well you're talking about god in relation to morals and how you would act with, or without one
a key aspect of that relationship is fear of god[/QUOTE]
Have you considered that there is more than one emotion that one exhibits towards the highest of the high? Yes you fear him, but you are also in awe. It's love, fear, awe, respect, loyalty, infinite debt, trust and reverence.
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873391]does the thought experiemnt end when I don't push it or do I suffer through endless torment for not pushing it
you're saying you would go through hell to not piss off god
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
consciously sure[/QUOTE]
I said considerable, not infinite.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873417]This isn't an argument.[/QUOTE]
yeah it is you're not solely a concious person
if you want to act like you are fine so be it, but you're wrong
You are a concious, and subconcious, I don't believe there's no fear in your reactions to a god
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873423]Have you considered that there is more than one emotion that one exhibits towards the highest of the high? Yes you fear him, but you are also in awe. It's love, fear, awe, respect, loyalty, infinite debt, trust and reverence.
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
I said considerable, not infinite.[/QUOTE]
then define considerable. is it worse than anything I've felt in my life? Or is it unimaginably bad? How long does it last?
Do I stop suffering if I hit the button in my anguish lost in pain? Do my reactions under duress count? I wouldn't be inclined to hit the button.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;43873421]What are they based on? Rewards? And if you don't get those rewards?
Fear of no heaven, perhaps?[/QUOTE]
The closest analogy I can think of (and one often used in the Bible) is between a father and child. The child may obey the father out of fear of punishment or hope for reward, but oftentimes the child simply desires to please the father. The love and respect leads to a desire to obey, even if no clear good or bad consequences can be expected.
[QUOTE=Ziks;43873409]In that case I misunderstood, I assumed that my brain had been altered to remove the concept of remorse before I made the decision.
If I was presented the decision with the promise that I would have the guilt artificially removed after pressing the button I would decline, mainly because anticipated guilt would still apply on a fundamental emotional level while I was deliberating on which action to perform.[/QUOTE]
What if it is a really bad guy who will be murdered? (not just killed)
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873423]Have you considered that there is more than one emotion that one exhibits towards the highest of the high? Yes you fear him, but you are also in awe. It's love, fear, awe, respect, loyalty, infinite debt, trust and reverence.
[/QUOTE]
I'd say fear would kind of rule that interaction if you actually got to speak to god as your mind would recoil from his nature
You can't honestly tell me you don't fear the source of infinite power in the universe unless you believe he's on your side which I kind of laugh at
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873456]The closest analogy I can think of (and one often used in the Bible) is between a father and child. The child may obey the father out of fear of punishment or hope for reward, but oftentimes the child simply desires to please the father. The love and respect leads to a desire to obey, even if no clear good or bad consequences can be expected.[/QUOTE]
That sounds extremely emotionally driven to me.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873433]yeah it is you're not solely a concious person
if you want to act like you are fine so be it, but you're wrong
You are a concious, and subconcious, I don't believe there's no fear in your reactions to a god
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
then define considerable. is it worse than anything I've felt in my life? Or is it unimaginably bad? How long does it last?
Do I stop suffering if I hit the button in my anguish lost in pain? Do my reactions under duress count? I wouldn't be inclined to hit the button.[/QUOTE]
Lets say something like getting in a car accident and feeling that for a day.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873461]What if it is a really bad guy who will be murdered? (not just killed)[/QUOTE]
If it kills a person who is about to kill another person, sure, but if it just kills a murderer who's minding his own business in jail, then no, I don't think so.
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873469]Lets say something like getting in a car accident and feeling that for a day.[/QUOTE]
then nope I wouldn't push the button
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873433]yeah it is you're not solely a concious person
if you want to act like you are fine so be it, but you're wrong
You are a concious, and subconcious, I don't believe there's no fear in your reactions to a god[/QUOTE]
Basing an argument on the other person subconsciously believing something different than they are arguing is completely unfounded and ridiculous. Don't push your own feelings onto me.
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