[QUOTE=sgman91;43873456]The closest analogy I can think of (and one often used in the Bible) is between a father and child. The child may obey the father out of fear of punishment or hope for reward, but oftentimes the child simply desires to please the father. The love and respect leads to a desire to obey, even if no clear good or bad consequences can be expected.[/QUOTE]
yeah you just described fear
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873467]I'd say fear would kind of rule that interaction if you actually got to speak to god as your mind would recoil from his nature
You can't honestly tell me you don't fear the source of infinite power in the universe unless you believe he's on your side which I kind of laugh at[/QUOTE]
Of course I fear him, but like I said, that isn't the only emotion.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873461]What if it is a really bad guy who will be murdered? (not just killed)[/QUOTE]
Do I know his crimes, and would it be painless? I suppose I could use most of the money to help any victims too.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873484]Of course I fear him, but like I said, that isn't the only emotion.[/QUOTE]
Fear would be the driving one if you truly believed you'll burn for eternity
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873493]Fear would be the driving one if you truly believed you'll burn for eternity[/QUOTE]
Desires to please are emotional too, and may be significant.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873477]Basing an argument on the other person subconsciously believing something different than they are arguing is completely unfounded and ridiculous. Don't push your own feelings onto me.[/QUOTE]
I'm just defining what you would experience having to deal with god in a real sense. he's an infinite being and you don't think you'd recoil with ultimate fear at that? well then, you're either lying, or you're in 100% control of every aspect of your mental processes which I don't believe.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873483]yeah you just described fear[/QUOTE]
... OK. I see that you are done even attempting to provide real arguments now.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873472]If it kills a person who is about to kill another person, sure, but if it just kills a murderer who's minding his own business in jail, then no, I don't think so.
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
then nope I wouldn't push the button[/QUOTE]
Why wouldn't you? What law are you breaking?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873511]Why wouldn't you? What law are you breaking?[/QUOTE]
The law that forces us to act in ways that minimise anticipated remorse.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873511]Why wouldn't you? What law are you breaking?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't want to. It's that fucking simple. You seem to require me to hit the button to kill someone because I'm an atheist and don't believe in objective morals, but I wouldn't want to do that. If you changed my brain chemistry so guilt and regret and whatever emotions go into that interplay don't exist, then you are not putting ME up on stand, you're putting a strawman on stand.
I wouldn't press the button because I wouldn't want to hurt someone. That's my personal opinion. I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't need a god to tell me that but apparently, you do.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873509]I'm just defining what you would experience having to deal with god in a real sense. he's an infinite being and you don't think you'd recoil with ultimate fear at that? well then, you're either lying, or you're in 100% control of every aspect of your mental processes which I don't believe.[/QUOTE]
As a Christian, God isn't some completely mysterious infinite being with the threat of Hell floating over my head. He's the God who, through nothing but his own mercy and love, suffered immense pain in order to allow me to have a relationship with him that I don't deserve. Why would I fear that? Now, if I had not been forgiven already, then yes... I would have immense fear.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873493]Fear would be the driving one if you truly believed you'll burn for eternity[/QUOTE]
Or reverence would be the driving one if you are thankful for existence as such.
See, I think that if when all is said and done, I have fallen short such that I am not forgiven. I'd be the first to cast myself into the lake of fire, lest my filth contaminate his eternal kingdom.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873510]... OK. I see that you are done even attempting to provide real arguments now.[/QUOTE]
You described a relationship that as a young child consists of primarily fear
Fear of rejection, fear of failure, fear comes in a lot of forms and a lot of drives
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873538]I wouldn't want to. It's that fucking simple. You seem to require me to hit the button to kill someone because I'm an atheist and don't believe in objective morals, but I wouldn't want to do that. If you changed my brain chemistry so guilt and regret and whatever emotions go into that interplay don't exist, then you are not putting ME up on stand, you're putting a strawman on stand.
I wouldn't press the button because I wouldn't want to hurt someone. That's my personal opinion. I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't need a god to tell me that but apparently, you do.[/QUOTE]
So you wouldn't press the button because of your uncontrollable irrationality?
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873553]You described a relationship that as a young child consists of primarily fear
Fear of rejection, fear of failure, fear comes in a lot of forms and a lot of drives[/QUOTE]
Again, you seem to be projecting your own experiences on others. I can only speak for myself, but I did not live in fear of my father.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873560]So you wouldn't press the button because of your uncontrollable irrationality?[/QUOTE]
Well if you want to strawman it like that go for it but no, because I don't want to sounds like a good enough reason to me
but feel free to strawman me however you want, I know you're not really trying
[QUOTE=sgman91;43873540]He's the God who, through nothing but his own mercy and love, suffered immense pain in order to allow me to have a relationship with him that I don't deserve.[/QUOTE]
While we're on the topic, could you explain why the whole crucifixion thing was an optimal solution for anything? That's something I've never understood at all, but I'm sure it must have some sound reasoning behind it since it's such a core aspect of Christianity.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873573]Well if you want to strawman it like that go for it but no, because I don't want to sounds like a good enough reason to me
but feel free to strawman me however you want, I know you're not really trying[/QUOTE]
Do you have any good reason for what you want?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873585]Do you have any good reason for what you want?[/QUOTE]
[b]Because the idea of hurting someone offends me[/b]
Wow, so hard for you guys to grasp that.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873585]Do you have any good reason for what you want?[/QUOTE]
It's driven by whatever the current configuration of his neural network encodes.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873601][b]Because the idea of hurting someone offends me[/b]
Wow, so hard for you guys to grasp that.[/QUOTE]
Why [b]should[/b] it offend you?
Homosexuality offends some people. If offense is good grounds for action then we've done something wrong.
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ziks;43873606]It's driven by whatever the current configuration of his neural network encodes.[/QUOTE]
I asked for a reason, you gave me an explanation. Two different things.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873616]Why [b]should[/b] it offend you?
Homosexuality offends some people. If offense is good grounds for action then we've done something wrong.[/QUOTE]
Do you people really not read? I said this already.
I would not want to affect others in a way I wouldn't want to be affected.
I said this already. Read.
This is enough reason for me. Go ahead and do an sgman and call it "irrational bullshit" or what have you but stop
Seriously, just stop.
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
Is it your fear and love of god that keeps you from hurting other people? The more we talk, the more it seems like it's that simple for you. You're just kept from immoral action because of a watch dog in the sky.
And you seriously act better than me, someone who would rather never hurt anyone ever even with the full knowledge no one is watching. I'm sorry, but I don't need a watch dog for moral action.
Go ahead, i'm done with this because you'll keep questioning why or how and never actually care when you have the answer because you'll just strawman it and make fun of it.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873632]Do you people really not read? I said this already.
I would not want to affect others in a way I wouldn't want to be affected.
[/QUOTE]
Why shouldn't you want that? It seems perfectly rational to deny that and instead affect others in such a way that they cannot affect you back. You can affect them so to achieve your idea of the good life.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873699]Why shouldn't you want that? It seems perfectly rational to deny that and instead affect others in such a way that they cannot affect you back. You can affect them so to achieve your idea of the good life.[/QUOTE]
And is it so impossible for you to conceive, when I tell you in a very easy to understand manner, that for me, a good life would not include hurting people?
It seems like a good life for you, if god didn't exist, would be one where you could hurt others
If someone's idea of a good life conflicts with yours. What do you do?
The action that benefits me most but hurts others least?
I don't get why this is so hard to get dude
What would you do if you knew God factually didn't exist and nothing you did mattered?
Would you go out and hurt others?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873699]Why shouldn't you want that? It seems perfectly rational to deny that and instead affect others in such a way that they cannot affect you back. You can affect them so to achieve your idea of the good life.[/QUOTE]
Your position would be presented in a much more positive form if you actually listened to what your opponents are telling you.
Avoidance of the harming of others and the intended assistance of those who need it are factors in our personal utility heuristic. We act in the ways that are expected to maximise this heuristic. It's as simple as that.
If yes then you're admitting you only do good out of fear or love of god, what have you
if no, then you're admitting you don't need an objective morality like god to make decisions that don't hurt other people
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ziks;43873776]Your position would be presented in a much more positive form if you actually listened to what your opponents are telling you.
Avoidance of the harming of others and the intended assistance of those who need it are factors in our personal utility heuristic. We act in the ways that are expected to maximise this heuristic. It's as simple as that.[/QUOTE]
nah you're an atheist, you don't need no morality or heuristics, you'll just steal and kill to get what you want like a godless heathen
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43873748]The action that benefits me most but hurts others least?
I don't get why this is so hard to get dude
What would you do if you knew God factually didn't exist and nothing you did mattered?
Would you go out and hurt others?[/QUOTE]
I would probably spend my time not existing and past that I would try to make sense of existence without logic.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43873789]I would probably spend my time not existing and past that I would try to make sense of existence without logic.[/QUOTE]
great avoidance of the question
guess we're done here
[editline]11th February 2014[/editline]
You can't do anything but make slights at me and avoid questions, can you
The definition Elohim is Mighty One. It is simply to say the mightiest one. Your scenario does not make sense because even if my mightiest one wasn't in that world, and assuming under your secular viewpoint that world would for some reason have logic and existence, then I would simply defer to the Mightiest one in that realm. If he says I shouldn't then I wouldn't. If he says I can, then when provided with a situation that benefits me and will not negatively affect overall utility, then I would probably slaughter that person with no good reason not to.
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