Religion Of Christianity - General

[QUOTE=Ziks;43890209]I kind of answered that in the post you quoted, it is currently unknown and will be difficult (perhaps impossible) to establish since we're dealing with something that leaves little for us to physically analyse.[/QUOTE] So you did, I suppose that answers my question. [QUOTE]Didn't I already counter that? That whoever penned the first iteration of the Book of Genesis may have believed it was a historical account?[/QUOTE] In that case the subject would not be about literary interpretation then, frankly I see no way of supporting or disproving such a claim though.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43890335]So you did, I suppose that answers my question. In that case the subject would not be about literary interpretation then, frankly I see no way of supporting or disproving such a claim though.[/QUOTE] What about the pre existence of such a story before your story? The existence of the tale of giglamesh predating the tale of noah is nothing short of a fact. Gilgamesh predates it. Gilgamesh shares a great, great many similarities. It predates it by something like 600-700 years. It stands to reason to me that it is a strong point to discuss [editline]12th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Galactic;43890307]Don't feel bad for misunderstanding what they're saying now. Lemaître, the mind behind the big bang theory and a Roman Catholic priest, called the big bang theory his "hypothesis of the primeval atom".[/QUOTE] Yes, the big bang theory comes from a religious practicioner. This isn't news to Ziks, and it isn't news to me. Where an idea comes from doesn't define that idea for the rest of it's creation. Why an earlier interpretation lacking proof and evidence that a later, different, evolved theory states has is more qualified as a theory is beyond me.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43890361]What about the pre existence of such a story before your story? The existence of the tale of giglamesh predating the tale of noah is nothing short of a fact. Gilgamesh predates it. Gilgamesh shares a great, great many similarities. It predates it by something like 600-700 years. It stands to reason to me that it is a strong point to discuss[/QUOTE] I addressed that with Ziks earlier, pointing out that if the ancient Jews did in fact copy the tale from Sumerian paganism, then would we not expect them to copy other religious myths and elements from surrounding cultures(thus resembling the cultures around them)? I stated that this was not the case and Ziks responded by linking me to a Wikipedia article on Canaanite religions, which only referenced the Hebrew bible by mentioning that one of the god's names was used to refer to God. I'd be surprised if there was any definitive knowledge on the ultimate origins of ancient Judaism, but the usage of a name that means "god the most high" to refer to God once in the text does not sound very convincing to me of Judaism's origins being in the surrounding Mesopotamian religions.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43890498]I addressed that with Ziks earlier, pointing out that if the ancient Jews did in fact copy the tale from Sumerian paganism, then would we not expect them to copy other religious myths and elements from surrounding cultures(thus resembling the cultures around them)? I stated that this was not the case and Ziks responded by linking me to a Wikipedia article on Canaanite religions, which only referenced the Hebrew bible by mentioning that one of the god's names was used to refer to God. I'd be surprised if there was any definitive knowledge on the ultimate origins of ancient Judaism, but the usage of a name that means "god the most high" to refer to God once in the text does not sound very convincing to me of Judaism's origins being in the surrounding Mesopotamian religions.[/QUOTE] why would you expect that? That's not what any other religion has done? Symbology and stories are often transferred to the next religion of the region, this is a common thing, they even come with entirely different reasons but they're still translated and transferred stories. If you want to talk about anthropology, you cannot for any arbitrary reason dismiss how events have transpired in other unrelated areas of the world. What I mean by this so there can be no mistake, is that when we study other ancient cultures, we see that there is no problem with the assimilation of ideas from one group coming to another group and finding a place in their story as well. You don't like hearing it, but religion has often been a form of tool in history to make the assimilation of new peoples to new cultures easier. Those groups often left a mark on the extended history of those religions as we look back on them. To me, it's strange to rule out christianity and it's section of mythology as invulnerable to this cultural effect and transformation and only christianity sees this benefit. We know enough about pre judaism to know he had a wife that was also a god.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43890546]why would you expect that? That's not what any other religion has done? Symbology and stories are often transferred to the next religion of the region, this is a common thing, they even come with entirely different reasons but they're still translated and transferred stories. If you want to talk about anthropology, you cannot for any arbitrary reason dismiss how events have transpired in other unrelated areas of the world. What I mean by this so there can be no mistake, is that when we study other ancient cultures, we see that there is no problem with the assimilation of ideas from one group coming to another group and finding a place in their story as well.[/QUOTE] Then the flood narrative from your perspective would be in utter conflict with this as it is almost the exact same thing as the Epic of Gilgamesh in terms of how the narrative progresses. So this example would not be supporting what you're saying. [QUOTE]You don't like hearing it, but religion has often been a form of tool in history to make the assimilation of new peoples to new cultures easier. Those groups often left a mark on the extended history of those religions as we look back on them. To me, it's strange to rule out christianity and it's section of mythology as invulnerable to this cultural effect and transformation and only christianity sees this benefit.[/QUOTE] I don't exclude Christianity from this as it has happened on several occasions form the inoffensive adoption of Christmas and Easter to the gross misinterpretations(and utter departure from core Christian doctrine) of the Gnostics and the Palagians. I have no doubts that the same happened to Judaism over time, but to claim it's origins were a mish-mash of Mesopotamian paganism is going a bit far in comparison to the other examples of cultural assimilation(given how intolerant they were of such forms of paganism). [QUOTE]We know enough about pre judaism to know he had a wife that was also a god.[/QUOTE] I assume when you say "he" you're referring to God? Could you elaborate on this a bit more?

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43890743] I don't exclude Christianity from this as it has happened on several occasions form the inoffensive adoption of Christmas and Easter to the gross misinterpretations(and utter departure from core Christian doctrine) of the Gnostics and the Palagians. I have no doubts that the same happened to Judaism over time, but to claim it's origins were a mish-mash of Mesopotamian paganism is going a bit far in comparison to the other examples of cultural assimilation(given how intolerant they were of such forms of paganism). [/QUOTE] The hebrews were always a very exclusive people and they were in fact monotheyst, having always had their own set of religious beliefs. And to rescue their old tradition and tales, when Moses led them from Egypt, he wrote(presumably) the five books. Several of the laws in the book of Leviticus are aimed towards Egypcian habits that the Hebrews have developed(like talking with the dead).

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43890335]In that case the subject would not be about literary interpretation then, frankly I see no way of supporting or disproving such a claim though.[/QUOTE] Sure, we should reject it then if you can present a plausible alternative. If we can explain something by only using mechanisms known to exist (as in exaggeration through retelling or gradual acceptance of a story as truth) then surely it performs better as an explanation than invoking a violation of other mechanisms we observe to always apply (the laws of physics) and requiring the meticulous removal of all supporting evidence for some unknown reason. [editline]13th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43890498]I addressed that with Ziks earlier, pointing out that if the ancient Jews did in fact copy the tale from Sumerian paganism, then would we not expect them to copy other religious myths and elements from surrounding cultures(thus resembling the cultures around them)? I stated that this was not the case and Ziks responded by linking me to a Wikipedia article on Canaanite religions, which only referenced the Hebrew bible by mentioning that one of the god's names was used to refer to God.[/QUOTE] Here's a more direct article: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panbabylonism[/url] Obviously this is only a hypothesis, but it seems fairly convincing to me. [editline]13th February 2014[/editline] There were apparently a few pretty big floods, like the filling of the Persian Gulf and Black Sea Deluge, that could have occurred at about the right time with the kind of cataclysmic magnitude that would persist in folklore. Additionally, ancient observation of the surprising presence of seashells in the rocks on top of mountains (from sedimentary rock that was below water millions of years prior that was gradually forced upwards due to plate tectonics) would have lead people to the natural conclusion that the entire world was underwater at some point.

[QUOTE=Ziks;43896055]Here's a more direct article: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panbabylonism[/url] Obviously this is only a hypothesis, but it seems fairly convincing to me.[/QUOTE] I have no doubts that there are similarities to be found between Judaism and other ancient religions of the near east, I'm not quite sure how that's indicative of Judaism having come from Babylonian mythology though. Certainly parallels between the creation myths can be found, but in terms of the very core doctrines and philosophies of either religion, there is no similarity. [QUOTE]There were apparently a few pretty big floods, like the filling of the Persian Gulf and Black Sea Deluge, that could have occurred at about the right time with the kind of cataclysmic magnitude that would persist in folklore.[/QUOTE] I believe it is the filling of the Persian gulf soon after the ice age that most proponents of the local flood interpretation cite as the most likely candidate. I am unsure of the exactly how much modern man had spread at that point though or the extent to which the civilizations within the area were wiped out. It lends an alternative to the idea that the flood story is pure fabrication though.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43911673]I have no doubts that there are similarities to be found between Judaism and other ancient religions of, I'm not quite sure who that's indicative of Judaism having come from Babylonian mythology though. Certainly parallels between the creation myths can be found, but in terms of the very core doctrines and philosophies of either religion, there is no similarity.[/QUOTE] I totally agree, it seems to only be some of the mythical tales that transitioned from the earlier Mesopotamian culture into proto-Judaism. Possibly from converted communities adapting old myths to accommodate their new monotheistic god, although that's conjecture on my part. [QUOTE]I believe it is the filling of the Persian gulf soon after the ice age that most proponents of the local flood interpretation cite as the most likely candidate. I am unsure of the exactly how much modern man had spread at that point though or the extent to which the civilizations within the area were wiped out. It lends an alternative to the idea that the flood story is pure fabrication though.[/QUOTE] True, it seems more likely that the various flood myths had a historical origin. It would have been absolutely devastating for the inhabitants of the area 8,000 years ago, and it's understandable that it would be the foundation of legends that would persist within the cultures of the survivors for thousands of years. An interesting article stub about the flood: [url]http://www.world-archaeology.com/more/persian-gulf-the-first-migration.htm[/url] It seems like the area would have been quite densely populated because of the favourable conditions compared to the surrounding deserts, and there is evidence of some of the earliest known boats among the settlements founded by the displaced survivors which at least means it doesn't pre-date the invention of water-craft, allowing for the possibility of an arc being constructed.

I'm glad I made a good thread for people to debate within religion, cheers! 531st post! It's amazing how a question turns into this XD.