[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864709]I whole heartedly disagree. It would be like being at the toy factory, where at the end of the production line, those that can and are willing to act as nice toys are let out to achieve their created purpose, whereas the rejects that shoot stray missiles at the children and cut and slash are thrown into the fire. If the toy wants to work, but just has a broken leg, the functioning thinking chips are recycled and given new bodies to work with.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that's a good outcome, nor do I think that's the likely outcome.
I think it also glazes over the horrors Sid commits to his toys on a regular basis. A sculptor who abuses his clay doesn't deserve worship.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43864637]God created beings with free will with the knowledge that those beings would inevitably fall into sin. He also had the knowledge that he would provide for the salvation of those beings, but ultimately the decision would be left up to them whether or not to accept the salvation.[/QUOTE]
The idea of free will directly contradicts the idea that God is omniscient. If God knows everything it's literally impossible for free will to exist.
And even if that wasn't so ultimately God would have created those people knowing that they would be born into circumstances that would lead them to sin, so he ultimately chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell before a person is even born.
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43864743]The idea of free will directly contradicts the idea that God is omniscient. If God knows everything it's literally impossible for free will to exist.[/QUOTE]
I've heard this claimed several times without any real explanation for why that is the case, knowing something to happen does not mean you are causing it to happen.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43864707]God cannot do illogical things. For example, he cannot create a round square. This in no way limits his power.
I would argue that no conceivable existence both allows for free will and has no possibility of suffering.[/QUOTE]
Yes that does limit his power. If he is all powerful and he created reality itself, then why can he not recreate or defy it? I thought this was the whole premise behind miracles.
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43864743]The idea of free will directly contradicts the idea that God is omniscient. If God knows everything it's literally impossible for free will to exist.
And even if that wasn't so ultimately God would have created those people knowing that they would be born into circumstances that would lead them to sin, so he ultimately chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell before a person is even born.[/QUOTE]
This doesn't really make sense though.
It's not like if I was a sculptor I would make 10 identical pots, then say "alright, five of these pots I'm keeping and five I'm just gonna smash for the hell of it".
I just don't see any logic in that.
If god created us to worship him, why not just program us to do nothing else?
If god created us to question him, why punish us for doing so?
[QUOTE=Explosions;43864703]If god has the ability to know all, and therefore prevent suffering created by him, yet he refuses to do so, then he is either malevolent or incompetent.[/QUOTE]
If you were in an endless void (which for arguments sake you have some sort of solid floor under you), and you had the choice of being able to have one fragrant rose, or a turd. Which one would you pick to allow for an optimization of your quality of life within the void?
Although intuitively you might want to say the flower, I think that it would be the worst choice.
If you chose the flower, then you would be forced to it. You wouldn't be able to experience much variety because any and all deviation and separation from this central positive experiential object would be painful by comparison.
On the other hand, if you were to choose the turd, you would immediately recoil and distance yourself from it. Although initially it was unpleasant, as you distance yourself from it you find an infinitude of experience getting better as you move away. By the time you've hit the limit approaching 0 of sense of that turd, everything else would be comparatively better.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43864761]I've heard this claimed several times without any real explanation for why that is the case, knowing something to happen does not mean you are causing it to happen.[/QUOTE]
If God knows everything, he therefore knows not only everything that is happening, but everything that ever has happened and everything that ever will happen. If he can know everything that ever will happen, the future must already be set in stone. If your future is already set in stone, you have no free will.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43864761]I've heard this claimed several times without any real explanation for why that is the case, knowing something to happen does not mean you are causing it to happen.[/QUOTE]
If god created everything and he knows the final outcome of all things, then he is ultimately responsible for them.
[QUOTE=Ramirez77;43864764]This doesn't really make sense though.
It's not like if I was a sculptor I would make 10 identical pots, then say "alright, five of these pots I'm keeping and five I'm just gonna smash for the hell of it".
I just don't see any logic in that.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly my point.
[QUOTE=Explosions;43864770]If god created everything and he knows the final outcome of all things, then he is ultimately responsible for them.[/QUOTE]
So?
(not, I say this assuming you mean the ultimate outcome of everything)
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864766]If you were in an endless void (which for arguments sake you have some sort of solid floor under you), and you had the choice of being able to have one fragrant rose, or a turd. Which one would you pick to allow for an optimization of your quality of life within the void?
Although intuitively you might want to say the flower, I think that it would be the worst choice.
If you chose the flower, then you would be forced to it. You wouldn't be able to experience much variety because any and all deviation and separation from this central positive experiential object would be painful by comparison.
On the other hand, if you were to choose the turd, you would immediately recoil and distance yourself from it. Although initially it was unpleasant, as you distance yourself from it you find an infinitude of experience getting better as you move away. By the time you've hit the limit approaching 0 of sense of that turd, everything else would be comparatively better.[/QUOTE]
Everything you just typed is completely incomprehensible.
Best explanation I've heard for free will is this:
Would you rather be loved due to you forcing someone to be loved or loved due to someone freely choosing so. In most of Christianity life on earth is nearly pointless except as a stop to heaven. We're here to learn to forgive and love.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43864776]So?[/QUOTE]
So then how does free will make sense if the outcome has been predetermined?
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43864761]I've heard this claimed several times without any real explanation for why that is the case, knowing something to happen does not mean you are causing it to happen.[/QUOTE]
I've literally personally explained this to you before, I swear I have at least.
If god knows EVERYTHING, and he creates you, he has full knowledge of every event, and choice in your life before they happen. he knows the cause, and effect of every action you ever take as well as everyone else in the world, he sees through the chaos of our lives from our points of view and can see the path of every action of every person on earth. This means whenever he births someone to the planet, he knows before hand, as he is all knowing, the very course that persons life holds for them.
Omniscience and free will can not co exist. Omniscience demands the knowledge of all. The knowledge of all includes that of people and their actions. The knowledge of all their actions would lead you to know what they do before they do it. Where does free will fit in there?
[QUOTE=matt000024;43864779]Best explanation I've heard for free will is this:
Would you rather be loved due to you forcing someone to be loved or loved due to someone freely choosing so. In most of Christianity life on earth is nearly pointless except as a stop to heaven. We're here to learn to forgive and love.[/QUOTE]
If you punish people for not loving you that isn't much different than forcing them to love you is it?
Therefore free will is just an illusion.
[QUOTE=Explosions;43864782]So then how does free will make sense if the outcome has been predetermined?[/QUOTE]
It is not predetermined, it is simply known.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43864796]It is not predetermined, it is simply known.[/QUOTE]
same thing no matter how much you want to fight that.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43864739]I don't think that's a good outcome, nor do I think that's the likely outcome.
I think it also glazes over the horrors Sid commits to his toys on a regular basis. A sculptor who abuses his clay doesn't deserve worship.[/QUOTE]
I think you glazed over the idea that I am disagreeing it is anything like Sid.
With Sid, the end goal isn't to make the toys better, or to have them love him. The end goal is to have fun for his own sake.
That is the difference, if you can't see that, then you don't understand El well enough.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43864707]God cannot do illogical things. For example, he cannot create a round square. This in no way limits his power.
I would argue that no conceivable existence both allows for free will and has no possibility of suffering.[/QUOTE]
That does, in fact, limit his power. If God cannot do things that are illogical he is inherently not omnipotent.
Not only that but if he created everything that must mean that he was the one that decided that a round square was illogical to begin with, just like he was the one who decided what does and does not constitute human suffering.
Why would he give us free will if he knew it would only make us suffer unless he was acting out of malice? Why would he even create a concept of suffering to begin with? Why would our existences not simply be perfect in every way?
[QUOTE=Ramirez77;43864793]If you punish people for not loving you that isn't much different than forcing them to love you is it?[/QUOTE]
Not all Christians believe in the concept of hell.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43864796]It is not predetermined, it is simply known.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't make any sense.
Tell me, does god right now know how your life will end and whether or not you will make it into heaven?
[QUOTE=Explosions;43864777]Everything you just typed is completely incomprehensible.[/QUOTE]
Do you attempt to understand something before calling it incomprehensible?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864804]I think you glazed over the idea that I am disagreeing it is anything like Sid.
With Sid, the end goal isn't to make the toys better, or to have them love him. The end goal is to have fun for his own sake.
That is the difference, if you can't see that, then you don't understand El well enough.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how the god of the bibles you prescribe to ISN'T exactly like that
if you just believed in say, a deist god of some non religion, who am I to argue what your made up god is like, but you are talking about a well defined, well recorded religion that has a violent, angry ruler depending on who you ask.
But of course, those that seem him as I do, are often told that we just don't know anything(which is a crock)
[editline]10th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=matt000024;43864818]Not all Christians believe in the concept of hell.[/QUOTE]
then are you not picking and choosing what is true? you're telling god what may be true or not?
that's a bit presumptious.
[QUOTE=Explosions;43864821]That doesn't make any sense.
Tell me, does god right now know how your life will end and whether or not you will make it into heaven?[/QUOTE]
Yes. Similarly he would know which toys would make it out of the toy factory. Just because he is omniscient of the process doesn't mean the process doesn't exist. Please refer to the free will thread and put some brain power into your rebuttals.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864855]Yes. Similarly he would know which toys would make it out of the toy factory. Just because he is omniscient of the process doesn't mean the process doesn't exist. Please refer to the free will thread and put some brain power into your rebuttals.[/QUOTE]
you didn't "win" the free will thread
you don't get to claim that thread just supports your view here when it doesn't, just your posts in it do
[QUOTE=Explosions;43864762]Yes that does limit his power. If he is all powerful and he created reality itself, then why can he not recreate or defy it? I thought this was the whole premise behind miracles.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between physical impossibility (an action that nature would never be able to do) and logical impossibility (an action or idea that is impossible to even conceive). A miracle is doing what would normally be considered physically impossible, but not necessarily what is logically impossible.
For example: It is physically impossible for water to instantly turn into wine, but there's nothing logically impossible about that. If God can create and destroy matter and energy at will then there's it's completely logical that he would also be able to turn any matter into any other matter.
On the other hand, it isn't even possible to think of a round square.
So god, existing outside of the universe, is bound to this universes physical laws then sgman? doesn't seem like a god to me then
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864855]Yes. Similarly he would know which toys would make it out of the toy factory. Just because he is omniscient of the process doesn't mean the process doesn't exist. Please refer to the free will thread and put some brain power into your rebuttals.[/QUOTE]
Does he not have power to interfere with the process?
If I was running a toy factory I would want it running as efficiently as possible. I would do everything to make sure the toys turned out good instead of sitting on the sidelines and just saying "meh, whatever, just another batch to throw away".
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43864873]So god, existing outside of the universe, is bound to this universes physical laws then sgman? doesn't seem like a god to me then[/QUOTE]
Logical consistency isn't a physical law.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43864859]you didn't "win" the free will thread
you don't get to claim that thread just supports your view here when it doesn't, just your posts in it do[/QUOTE]
No, but most of the points about causality and free will, whether compatibilist or non-compatibilist are contained therein. You didn't 'win' it either if I recall.
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