Religion Of Christianity - General

[QUOTE=sgman91;43864879]Logical consistency isn't a physical law.[/QUOTE] but logical consistency as we know it is just a feature of this universe I don't see why that logical consistency stays together outside of a universe with a set of rules when those rules must change

[QUOTE=sgman91;43864863]There's a difference between physical impossibility (an action that nature would never be able to do) and logical impossibility (an action or idea that is impossible to even conceive). A miracle is doing what would normally be considered physically impossible, but not necessarily what is logically impossible. For example: It is physically impossible for water to instantly turn into wine, but there's nothing logically impossible about that. If God can create and destroy matter and energy at will then there's it's completely logical that he would also be able to turn any matter into any other matter. On the other hand, it isn't even possible to think of a round square.[/QUOTE] If God created everything then he must have created logic. The idea that a round square is logically impossible was created by him.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864881]No, but most of the points about causality and free will, whether compatibilist or non-compatibilist are contained therein. You didn't win it either if I recall.[/QUOTE] no it's not a debate to be "won" without a serious scientific basis for why things are the way they are. not a metaphysical debate. proof. I simply took a view that required proof that what happens inside our brain is in fact "an undeterminded state".

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864823]Do you attempt to understand something before calling it incomprehensible?[/QUOTE] I read it twice. Three time now that I've responded to it. Each time I got absolutely nothing from it. What does "optimization of quality of life" mean? Am I some sort of human being in this scenario? Could I not move around and search for more stuff, or just wander? Why are these two objects so important? Why would I "be forced to" the flower and what does that even mean? What is a "central positive experimental object" and why would it be "painful" to look at anything else? Why exactly would I have "an infinitude of experience getting better" if I reject the turd? The last sentence is compete jibberish. Most importantly, what the hell does any of that have to do with god's omniscience? It pains me to even respond to that post. It pains me even more to know that you'll respond by posting even more unintelligible, ivory tower nonsense.

[QUOTE=Explosions;43864897]I read it twice. Three time now that I've responded to it. Each time I got absolutely nothing from it. What does "optimization of quality of life" mean? Am I some sort of human being in this scenario? Could I not move around and search for more stuff, or just wander? Why are these two objects so important? Why would I "be forced to" the flower and what does that even mean? What is a "central positive experimental object" and why would it be "painful" to look at anything else? Why exactly would I have "an infinitude of experience getting better" if I reject the turd? The last sentence is compete jibberish. Most importantly, what the hell does any of that have to do with god's omniscience? It pains me to even respond to that post. It pains me even more to know that you'll respond by posting even more unintelligible, ivory tower nonsense.[/QUOTE] I think he's basically stating you can't experience good without the concept of bad. I.e. the turd is unpleasant but you get happier the more you are distanced from it, while the flower is simply just there.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864855]Yes. Similarly he would know which toys would make it out of the toy factory. Just because he is omniscient of the process doesn't mean the process doesn't exist. Please refer to the free will thread and put some brain power into your rebuttals.[/QUOTE] Okay, lets put it like this. I'm over at a friend's house and I decide to get a drink. I look in his fridge and see that he has beer and coca-cola. Now, if God knows everything, he knows which drink I'll pick. Not only that, he always knew what drink I would pick. Since the beginning of time itself, God has always known that on this particular day at this particular moment, I would choose to drink coca-cola. So, where exactly did my free will come in?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43864884]but logical consistency as we know it is just a feature of this universe I don't see why that logical consistency stays together outside of a universe with a set of rules when those rules must change[/QUOTE] Logical consistency isn't at all necessarily connected with the physical world like recognized physical laws are. For example: A cannot be both true and contradictory with B at the same time. This is a quick version of the law of non-contradiction, one of the basic laws of logic. This thought applies to the physical world, but in no way is an effect of the physical world. You can't give a natural reason for it, or find out what physical constant leads to it, etc. We can only see that the universe follows these logical laws, not that these logical laws come from the universe. On the other hand the law of gravity interacts with other parts of the physical universe, is connected with other parts of nature, can be measured, has numbers associated with it, etc.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864855]Yes. Similarly he would know which toys would make it out of the toy factory. Just because he is omniscient of the process doesn't mean the process doesn't exist. Please refer to the free will thread and put some brain power into your rebuttals.[/QUOTE] More nonsense and a flame. [QUOTE=sgman91;43864863]There's a difference between physical impossibility (an action that nature would never be able to do) and logical impossibility (an action or idea that is impossible to even conceive). A miracle is doing what would normally be considered physically impossible, but not necessarily what is logically impossible. For example: It is physically impossible for water to instantly turn into wine, but there's nothing logically impossible about that. If God can create and destroy matter and energy at will then there's it's completely logical that he would also be able to turn any matter into any other matter. On the other hand, it isn't even possible to think of a round square.[/QUOTE] Your concept of "logic" is bound by the primitive primate brain that all humans possess. Would not a god be able to conceive of anything he wished? Also, how is instantly turning water into wine logical?

[QUOTE=Ramirez77;43864908]I think he's basically stating you can't experience good without the concept of bad. I.e. the turd is unpleasant but you get happier the more you are distanced from it, while the flower is simply just there.[/QUOTE] But that in itself is an idea that God created. He was the one that decided that you can't be satisfied simply feeling good all the time. He could have just as easily made it so that you were always happy and you would always find your life satisfying and fulfilling, but he didn't.

I would love for you to prove that under all circumstances that you and I both cannot imagine, that you're right but then again, only one of us is claiming to be right through out all time and space.

[QUOTE=Explosions;43864897]I read it twice. Three time now that I've responded to it. Each time I got absolutely nothing from it. What does "optimization of quality of life" mean? Am I some sort of human being in this scenario? Could I not move around and search for more stuff, or just wander? Why are these two objects so important?[/quote] Yes you are a human, because I said "You". Yes you can move because I gave you a floor to walk on. These two objects are part of the thought experiment I presented. You get to choose one or the other. [quote] Why would I "be forced to" the flower and what does that even mean? What is a "central positive experimental object" and why would it be "painful" to look at anything else? [/quote] It means that the flower is a better experience than anything else. As soon as you choose it, and it appears, you would stick your nose in it and never want to leave. Any motion away from the flower would be towards a less pleasant experience. The central object is the flower, the only thing existing other than you and the infinite floor going out in all directions. [quote] Why exactly would I have "an infinitude of experience getting better" if I reject the turd? [/quote] I hope that is a typo and you actually understood that if you 'reject the turd' you are choosing the flower to materialize instead. If the turd is the maximum shittiest (heh) point in existence, then any point that is farther away from it will also be a better sensual experience. [quote] Most importantly, what the hell does any of that have to do with god's omniscience? It pains me to even respond to that post. It pains me even more to know that you'll respond by posting even more unintelligible, ivory tower nonsense.[/QUOTE] This has more to do with the problem of evil, and how an maximally good life may not necessarily involve good things to achieve it.

[QUOTE=Explosions;43864942]Your concept of "logic" is bound by the primitive primate brain that all humans possess. Would not a god be able to conceive of anything he wished?[/QUOTE] This is only true if you already assume that we are unable to understand basic logic. It's very possible that we were created with a correct understanding of basic logic (this is often one of the traits associated with being created in God's image). [QUOTE]Also, how is instantly turning water into wine logical?[/QUOTE] 1) God can create and destroy matter and energy at will. 2) Water and wine are made of matter and energy. 3) God can create and destroy water and wine at will. This is logically sound and depends only on whether the facts presented are true or false, namely numbers 1 and 2. [editline]10th February 2014[/editline] On the other hand: 1) Squares have 4 corners. 2) Round things have no corners. 3) Therefore squares cannot be round. This shows that a round square is not just physically impossible, but also logically impossible.

[QUOTE=Explosions;43864942]More nonsense and a flame. [/QUOTE] I was simply asking that you put some sort of thought into the post, so that I can reply. I was further directing you to my arguments provided in the mentioned thread. Calling something incomprehensible nonsense more often than not leaves me little to reply to.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43864789]If god knows EVERYTHING, and he creates you, he has full knowledge of every event, and choice in your life before they happen. he knows the cause, and effect of every action you ever take as well as everyone else in the world, he sees through the chaos of our lives from our points of view and can see the path of every action of every person on earth. This means whenever he births someone to the planet, he knows before hand, as he is all knowing, the very course that persons life holds for them. [/QUOTE] That does not mean that he takes control of our every action and determines them though, to determine implies some sort of causal relationship, to know is to retain information about the thing in question. [QUOTE=Explosions;43864821]That doesn't make any sense.[/QUOTE] Why doesn't it? [QUOTE]Tell me, does god right now know how your life will end and whether or not you will make it into heaven?[/QUOTE] Yes.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864969]Yes you are a human, because I said "You". Yes you can move because I gave you a floor to walk on. These two objects are part of the thought experiment I presented. You get to choose one or the other. It means that the flower is a better experience than anything else. As soon as you choose it, and it appears, you would stick your nose in it and never want to leave. Any motion away from the flower would be towards a less pleasant experience. The central object is the flower, the only thing existing other than you and the infinite floor going out in all directions.[/quote] Why would I act in such a way if I am a human? Who in their right mind would just spend all eternity sniffing a flower and nothing else? [quote]I hope that is a typo and you actually understood that if you 'reject the turd' you are choosing the flower to materialize instead. If the turd is the maximum shittiest (heh) point in existence, then any point that is farther away from it will also be a better sensual experience. This has more to do with the problem of evil, and how an maximally good life may not necessarily involve good things to achieve it.[/QUOTE] Why would I even bother with the turn if I could choose absolute bliss with the flower? Same thing with god, why doesn't he place all souls in bliss forever?

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864969]Yes you are a human, because I said "You". Yes you can move because I gave you a floor to walk on. These two objects are part of the thought experiment I presented. You get to choose one or the other. It means that the flower is a better experience than anything else. As soon as you choose it, and it appears, you would stick your nose in it and never want to leave. Any motion away from the flower would be towards a less pleasant experience. The central object is the flower, the only thing existing other than you and the infinite floor going out in all directions. I hope that is a typo and you actually understood that if you 'reject the turd' you are choosing the flower to materialize instead. If the turd is the maximum shittiest (heh) point in existence, then any point that is farther away from it will also be a better sensual experience. This has more to do with the problem of evil, and how an maximally good life may not necessarily involve good things to achieve it.[/QUOTE] This is literally incomprehensible nonsense. What point are you trying to make here?

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865002]That does not mean that he takes control of our every action and determines them though, to determine implies some sort of causal relationship, to know is to retain information about the thing in question.[/QUOTE] so there's no causal relationship in literally creating you...? And the world and universe you exist in and the circumstances you find yourself in? you have to see that as ridiculous

[QUOTE=Explosions;43865009]Why would I even bother with the turn if I could choose absolute bliss with the flower? Same thing with god, why doesn't he place all souls in bliss forever?[/QUOTE] Perhaps the problem is that I'm not a hedonist, and a pleasure-machine for everyone is not what I consider good.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865021]Perhaps the problem is that I'm not a hedonist, and a pleasure-machine for everyone is not what I consider good.[/QUOTE] You didn't make an analogy that does anything but make hedonism a strawman and liking the absence of a turd to moral superiority nobody got what you're trying to get through

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865002]That does not mean that he takes control of our every action and determines them though, to determine implies some sort of causal relationship, to know is to retain information about the thing in question. Why doesn't it? Yes.[/QUOTE] It doesn't even [I]matter[/I] if he determines your every action though. If, in the future, you are going to be presented with a choice between A or B, and God, being omniscient, knows that you'll chose B at that point in time, you inherently never had the free will to chose A to begin with.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865026]You didn't make an analogy that does anything but make hedonism a strawman and liking the absence of a turd to moral superiority nobody got what you're trying to get through[/QUOTE] It isn't an analogy. It is a thought experiment. It can be answered two ways; Turd or Flower. I choose turd.

[QUOTE=sgman91;43864974]This is only true if you already assume that we are unable to understand basic logic. It's very possible that we were created with a correct understanding of basic logic (this is often one of the traits associated with being created in God's image). 1) God can create and destroy matter and energy at will. 2) Water and wine are made of matter and energy. 3) God can create and destroy water and wine at will. This is logically sound and depends only on whether the facts presented are true or false, namely numbers 1 and 2. [editline]10th February 2014[/editline] On the other hand: 1) Squares have 4 corners. 2) Round things have no corners. 3) Therefore squares cannot be round. This shows that a round square is not just physically impossible, but also logically impossible.[/QUOTE] You are absolutely putting a limit on god's power if you say that there's a limit to the things he can know. It's pretty cut and dry. If you're saying that god is only limited to a certain logic, then you are limiting his power.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865021]Perhaps the problem is that I'm not a hedonist, and a pleasure-machine for everyone is not what I consider good.[/QUOTE] Which is an idea that God created. If God exists and he created everything then obviously the reason constant happiness isn't satisfying is because he made it so.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865013]so there's no causal relationship in literally creating you...? And the world and universe you exist in and the circumstances you find yourself in?[/QUOTE] God did not by necessity create me, there are different theories on the origin of the mind. As for the act of creation, I do not quite see how that relates to free will and omniscience.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865034]It isn't an analogy. It is a thought experiment. It can be answered two ways; Turd or Flower. I choose turd.[/QUOTE] then i'm pretty sure this is an abysmal thought experiment.

[QUOTE=Explosions;43865039]You are absolutely putting a limit on god's power if you say that there's a limit to the things he can know. It's pretty cut and dry. If you're saying that god is only limited to a certain logic, then you are limiting his power.[/QUOTE] There is only one type of logic. Anything that isn't logic is illogical. I'm essentially saying that God can't make something that can't even exist as an idea.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865047]God did not by necessity create me, there are different theories on the origin of the mind. As for the act of creation, I do not quite see how that relates to free will and omniscience.[/QUOTE] I know you're probably not ignoring my posts on purpose but I have at least three times now explained exactly how free will and omniscience are contradictory.

[QUOTE=sgman91;43865060]There is only one type of logic. Anything that isn't logic is illogical.[/QUOTE] in this universe under these rules under this understanding with these brains but sure, you're stating an objective truth I guess? or not?

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865002]Yes.[/QUOTE] So isn't the outcome of your existence already set in stone?

[QUOTE=Explosions;43865039]You are absolutely putting a limit on god's power if you say that there's a limit to the things he can know. It's pretty cut and dry. If you're saying that god is only limited to a certain logic, then you are limiting his power.[/QUOTE] First you criticize for being self-contradictory, then you criticize for not-allowing for self-contradiction on the grounds of logic. I agree with Sgman, you might as well ask "Can god create something he can't create" or "Can god make a 4 sided triangle?" Utter nonsense.