[QUOTE=sgman91;43865060]There is only one type of logic. Anything that isn't logic is illogical.
I'm essentially saying that God can't make something that can't even exist as an idea.[/QUOTE]
The concept of an idea is, again, the creation of God in theory.
Again, if God created everything then the confines of logic must therefore be his creation.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865051]then i'm pretty sure this is an abysmal thought experiment.[/QUOTE]
Want to elaborate?
I think it shows clearly how choosing something that appears good would in fact be bad.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865079]First you criticize for being self-contradictory, then you criticize for not-allowing for self-contradiction on the grounds of logic.
I agree with Sgman, you might as well ask "Can god create something he can't create" or "Can god make a 4 sided triangle?"
Utter nonsense.[/QUOTE]
If God is omnipotent he must therefore be able to create anything, including a 4 sided triangle. If he is unable to do so he is inherently not omnipotent.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865047]God did not by necessity create me, there are different theories on the origin of the mind. As for the act of creation, I do not quite see how that relates to free will and omniscience.[/QUOTE]
he created you. He knows you. He knows the choices you have in your life. He knows how you will react to those choices. God put you on the path he put you on with the events in your life knowing the choices you would make before he even put you in that path. You're little more than one of gods play things being thrown into his sandbox with the full foreknowledge of everything you could do, won't do, and will do. Where does free will come into this? How can that be "free will" by any stretch of the imagination?
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865088]The concept of an idea is, again, the creation of God in theory.
Again, if God created everything then the confines of logic must therefore be his creation.[/QUOTE]
I would also claim that he didn't create moral laws, but that they flow from his very nature. In the same way I would say that logic flows from his very nature.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865092]Want to elaborate?
I think it shows clearly how choosing something that appears good would in fact be bad.[/QUOTE]
I didn't get that at all.
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865096]If God is omnipotent he must therefore be able to create anything, including a 4 sided triangle. If he is unable to do so he is inherently not omnipotent.[/QUOTE]
A four sided triangle isn't a thing. You are depending on illogical statements to try and prove your point.
[QUOTE=Explosions;43865076]So isn't the outcome of your existence already set in stone?[/QUOTE]
Yes, not because it was determined by God though, simply because when I can choose one of many options I will ultimately choose one.
[editline] [/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865098]he created you. He knows you. He knows the choices you have in your life. He knows how you will react to those choices. God put you on the path he put you on with the events in your life knowing the choices you would make before he even put you in that path. You're little more than one of gods play things being thrown into his sandbox with the full foreknowledge of everything you could do, won't do, and will do. Where does free will come into this? How can that be "free will" by any stretch of the imagination?[/QUOTE]
I would disagree with the statement that I am no more than a "play thing" as it is not God's will for me to exist merely for his amusement. As for your other statements, are they referencing how God could ultimately cause the world to influence my every action as he knows how I would react?
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865096]If God is omnipotent he must therefore be able to create anything, including a 4 sided triangle. If he is unable to do so he is inherently not omnipotent.[/QUOTE]
No that is just nonsense. A triangle by definition is 3 sided. If he were to make a 4 sided triangle, it would be a rectangle.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43865099]I would also claim that he didn't create moral laws, but that they flow from his very nature. In the same way I would say that logic flows from his very nature.[/QUOTE]
What does this even mean?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865079]First you criticize for being self-contradictory, then you criticize for not-allowing for self-contradiction on the grounds of logic.
I agree with Sgman, you might as well ask "Can god create something he can't create" or "Can god make a 4 sided triangle?"
Utter nonsense.[/QUOTE]
Yes such is the nature of omnipotence. I agree that it is nonsense and that is why I refuse to believe it. At very least, I do not claim to know it.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865079]First you criticize for being self-contradictory, then you criticize for not-allowing for self-contradiction on the grounds of logic.
I agree with Sgman, you might as well ask "Can god create something he can't create" or "Can god make a 4 sided triangle?"
Utter nonsense.[/QUOTE]
yeah that's the point he's making.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865100]I didn't get that at all.[/QUOTE]
Ok, well let me ask you;
What would you choose and why? I hope you at least understand the grounds for the experiment. You are in an empty world with a floor (for convenience). You can either choose to spawn a turd or a flower. Which do you choose, and why?
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865111]What does this even mean?[/QUOTE]
God is good. He doesn't do good, he doesn't make up what's good... he IS good. Therefore all ideas of goodness have no foundation outside of Him.
In the same way God is logical. He doesn't obey logic and he didn't create logic... he IS logical.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865109]No that is just nonsense. A triangle by definition is 3 sided. If he were to make a 4 sided triangle, it would be a rectangle.[/QUOTE]
Which, again, is a law of his own creation. The concept of sides and triangles were made by him. If God is omnipotent he must by definition be able to do anything. If there is something he cannot do, he isn't omnipotent.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865107]Yes, not because it was determined by God though, simply because when I can choose one of many options I will ultimately choose one.[/QUOTE]
Same difference. He would know your final choice.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865107]Yes, not because it was determined by God though, simply because when I can choose one of many options I will ultimately choose one.[/QUOTE]
if that's the only choice you were ever going to make, is it free will? Is it?
To me, it's not. It doesn't sound like it, seem like it, smell like it, it sounds exactly like determinism and if god is playing a game of determinist dice then that's all the more reason to not "want" to worship him
[editline]10th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;43865127]God is good. He doesn't do good, he doesn't make up what's good... he IS good. Therefore all ideas of goodness have no foundation outside of Him.
In the same way God is logical. He doesn't obey logic and he didn't create logic... he IS logical.[/QUOTE]
so god cannot do something bad?
[QUOTE=Explosions;43865115]Yes such is the nature of omnipotence. I agree that it is nonsense and that is why I refuse to believe it. At very least, I do not claim to know it.[/QUOTE]
No it isn't. Omnipotence means being able to do everything that is logically possible. Making a 4 sided triangle isn't logically possible, ergo it doesn't violate omnipotence.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865123]Ok, well let me ask you;
What would you choose and why? I hope you at least understand the grounds for the experiment. You are in an empty world with a floor (for convenience). You can either choose to spawn a turd or a flower. Which do you choose, and why?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't bother with either if I was honest. I would simply ask the most basic of questions
"why do I exist in a vast empty universe with the choice to spawn a turd or a flower"
okay fine, I would pick the flower because the flower is a system of extreme complexity that could be studied for clues about the universe perhaps.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865132]so god cannot do something bad?[/QUOTE]
His very nature defines goodness. It's illogical to ask if he can do bad.
It would be like asking if a circle can have corners. So I guess the answer would be no, but it's on the basis of logical impossibility.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865136]No it isn't. Omnipotence means being able to do everything that is logically possible. Making a 4 sided triangle isn't logically possible, ergo it doesn't violate omnipotence.[/QUOTE]
Cool new definition of an old word.
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865129]Which, again, is a law of his own creation. The concept of sides and triangles were made by him. If God is omnipotent he must by definition be able to do anything. If there is something he cannot do, he isn't omnipotent.[/QUOTE]
Some things are transcendent. Like pi. Things like that are more properties of him than creations of him. For he is transcendental.
[editline]10th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Explosions;43865147]Cool new definition of an old word.[/QUOTE]
Cool, misunderstanding of an old word, and minimal familiarization with religious philosophy.
You keep saying that god is bound by logic, but that means he is bound by laws higher than himself.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865107]Yes, not because it was determined by God though, simply because when I can choose one of many options I will ultimately choose one.[/QUOTE]
Yes but if you were always destined to choose that option then you never had the free will to choose a different option to begin with.
[QUOTE=sgman91;43865143]His very nature defines goodness. It doesn't even really make sense to ask if he can do bad.[/QUOTE]
So if god was to hypothetically kill you because you just didn't deserve life on an arbitrary metric, this would be good?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43864456]Are you the mightiest?
[editline]10th February 2014[/editline]
You may be mightier, but you certainly aren't mightiest.[/QUOTE]
A god that mistreats his creations isn't a god worthy of worship.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865136]No it isn't. Omnipotence means being able to do everything that is logically possible. Making a 4 sided triangle isn't logically possible, ergo it doesn't violate omnipotence.[/QUOTE]
This is not at all what omnipotence means, you're just arbitrarily changing the definition to suit your needs.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865142]I wouldn't bother with either if I was honest. I would simply ask the most basic of questions
"why do I exist in a vast empty universe with the choice to spawn a turd or a flower"
okay fine, I would pick the flower because the flower is a system of extreme complexity that could be studied for clues about the universe perhaps.[/QUOTE]
I can just switch it to be a shitty air freshener or a fruity air freshener. To make the objects equally complex. You can't dodge the question like that.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865160]So if god was to hypothetically kill you because you just didn't deserve life on an arbitrary metric, this would be good?[/QUOTE]
That's an illogical hypothetical.
It's like saying: If this circle had corners would it be able to cut you?
The question makes no sense on it's face.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865172]I can just switch it to be a shitty air freshener or a fruity air freshener. To make the objects equally complex. You can't dodge the question like that.[/QUOTE]
Then the question you're asking comes down to "are you a hedonist or a moral superior?"
in which case I don't see the relevancy at all
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