Religion Of Christianity - General

[QUOTE=sgman91;43865318]No? You aren't really making an argument at this point. You're just stating something as true. Can you provide an actual argument as to why your statement would be correct?[/QUOTE] Well omnipotence, infinite power, and infinite knowledge, kind of makes me feel like what we call "logic" wouldn't define a godly being. [editline]10th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Zenreon117;43865328]What would happen if an unstoppable force met an immovable object?[/QUOTE] literally nothing it's nullification.

You are continuously putting a limit on god's power by saying it stops where logic ends. It's not omnipotence.

[QUOTE=sgman91;43865318]No? You aren't really making an argument at this point. You're just stating something as true. Can you provide an actual argument as to why your statement would be correct?[/QUOTE] I don't even know how I can explain this any better than I already have. If omnipotence is absolute power over everything and logic is a thing, it therefore would make sense that an entity that is omnipotent would have power over what constitutes logic, would it not?

[QUOTE=Explosions;43865338]You are continuously putting a limit on god's power by saying it stops where logic ends. It's not omnipotence.[/QUOTE] It isn't that his power stops where logic ends. It's that nothing exists where logic ends. There's nothing to have power over. [editline]10th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865366]I don't even know how I can explain this any better than I already have. If omnipotence is absolute power over everything and logic is a thing, it therefore would make sense that an entity that is omnipotent would have power over what constitutes logic, would it not?[/QUOTE] Logic isn't a thing... just like morality isn't a thing... and justice isn't a thing...

[QUOTE=sgman91;43865370]It isn't that his power stops where logic ends. It's that nothing exists where logic ends. There's nothing to have power over.[/QUOTE] A tesseract is a logically impossible figure in our universe. Would god be unable to discern its true shape if he was presented with one?

[QUOTE=Explosions;43865399]A tesseract is a logically impossible figure in our universe. Would god be unable to discern its true shape if he was presented with one?[/QUOTE] To say "if he was presented with one" assumes that is is a logical shape. If it is truly illogical, then a more accurate description would be that it doesn't have a shape.

so god isn't omniscient it's good for you to finally admit that

[QUOTE=sgman91;43865370]Logic isn't a thing... just like morality isn't a thing... and justice isn't a thing...[/QUOTE] I don't even know how to continue from here. It's clear that we're not on the same page and I don't really know how to explain what I'm trying to say in a way that won't simply cause this discussion continue to go in circles like this.

[QUOTE=Explosions;43865208]So then he doesn't know the endgame? Which is it?[/QUOTE] Why should he have to control me to know what is to come? [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865218]but did he not create you, the systems that allow you to exist, everything in essence that comes into play in a determinist world that would allow you to make those choices? did he not define your choices by the situations he placed you in?[/QUOTE] He perhaps influenced choices that I have made, that does not mean that he determined them, I still ultimately made the choice myself. If influencing a person to make a choice was the same as controlling their will, then encouragement and punishment would be forms of controlling one's will. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865233]unless you can make a choice god doesn't know about, you can't have truly free will. you can just have planned life by a master being.[/QUOTE] Why? If I am the one making the choices what does it matter if he knows what I will choose?

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865424]I don't even know how to continue from here. It's clear that we're not on the same page and I don't really know how to explain what I'm trying to say in a way that won't simply cause this discussion continue to go in circles like this.[/QUOTE] You call logic a thing, but it simply isn't. It isn't made of anything, it isn't caused by anything, etc. It just is. You are the one claiming that illogical statements are things that a hypothetically omnipotent being should be able to put into practice... but the very claim falls on the fact that illogical statements are not and can't be things. We can't move forward because it is logically impossible to make the argument that you are trying to make.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865438]Why should he have to control me to know what is to come? He perhaps influenced choices that I have made, that does not mean that he determined them, I still ultimately made the choice myself. If influencing a person to make a choice was the same as controlling their will, then encouragement and punishment would be forms of controlling one's will. Why? If I am the one making the choices what does it matter if he knows what I will choose?[/QUOTE] If he sees and knows every part of your path, how can you define that as free will? Especially when he created you, and put you in that situation full well knowing what the result would be of every choice if that results in your going to hell, doesn't that seem like he set that bowling ball down the lane knowing it would go to the gutter?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865421]so god isn't omniscient it's good for you to finally admit that[/QUOTE] If not being able to envision a circle with corners is not being omniscient, then by all means God isn't omniscient.

[QUOTE=sgman91;43865448]You call logic a thing, but it simply isn't. It isn't made of anything, it isn't caused by anything, etc. It just is. You are the one claiming that illogical statements are things that a hypothetically omnipotent being should be able to put into practice... but the very claim falls on the fact that illogical statements are not and can't be things. We can't move forward because it is logically impossible to make the argument that you are trying to make.[/QUOTE] it seems pretty difficult to define logic outside of this universe as you have done here in this discussion in no uncertain terms.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865467]it seems pretty difficult to define logic outside of this universe as you have done here in this discussion in no uncertain terms.[/QUOTE] Our normal rules of logic are not in any way bound by matter or energy like actual physical laws. I don't know why it's so hard to see this. Gravity directly effects matter and can be measured, the strong and weak nuclear forces directly effect matter and can be measured, etc. there's a fundamental difference between a physical law and a law like logic or morality. Logic can exist without any physical being. This can not be said about physical laws. [editline]10th February 2014[/editline] I'm going to go eat some dinner. So please try to not stack on the responses too much before I get back!

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865438]Why should he have to control me to know what is to come? He perhaps influenced choices that I have made, that does not mean that he determined them, I still ultimately made the choice myself. If influencing a person to make a choice was the same as controlling their will, then encouragement and punishment would be forms of controlling one's will. Why? If I am the one making the choices what does it matter if he knows what I will choose?[/QUOTE] For like, the fifth time now, it doesn't matter whether or not God directly influences your decisions because if he can know what choices you will make before you make them, you never had the freedom to make different choices to begin with. [QUOTE=sgman91;43865448]You call logic a thing, but it simply isn't. It isn't made of anything, it isn't caused by anything, etc. It just is. You are the one claiming that illogical statements are things that a hypothetically omnipotent being should be able to put into practice... but the very claim falls on the fact that illogical statements are not and can't be things. We can't move forward because it is logically impossible to make the argument that you are trying to make.[/QUOTE] Is logic a restriction of nature or of the human mind? I guess that's really why I can't think of any way to continue this discussion, we're asking a question that literally cannot be answered because the alternative is something that we cannot comprehend. Arguing over such a metaphysical question seems entirely pointless because anything we could say would be speculation for the viewpoint of a human being with limited comprehension.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43865461]If he sees and knows every part of your path, how can you define that as free will? Especially when he created you, and put you in that situation full well knowing what the result would be of every choice[/QUOTE] I call it free will because there is still ultimately nothing that would restrict me from choosing a different option apart form myself. [QUOTE]if that results in your going to hell, doesn't that seem like he set that bowling ball down the lane knowing it would go to the gutter?[/QUOTE] It would mean that even with his efforts to influence me I still failed to acknowledge my own inadequacy, his existence and his grace(hypothetically). The fault still lies with me, but that does not mean it is better I never existed.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865538]I call it free will because there is still ultimately nothing that would restrict me from choosing a different option apart form myself.[/QUOTE] Yes, actually, there would be something the would restrict you in that for God to be able to know your decision before it happens you must have always been destined to make that choice.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865538]I call it free will because there is still ultimately nothing that would restrict me from choosing a different option apart form myself.[/QUOTE] Except that choice had already been determined by god since the beginning of time itself.

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865562]Yes, actually, there would be something the would restrict you in that for God to be able to know your decision before it happens you must have always been destined to make that choice.[/QUOTE] That would imply that things happen because God knows that they will happen, that is not not what I am saying. The precise nature of God's omniscience is a debated topic with Christianity, but it's vital that free will exist in parallel with it(thus meaning that your statement is not the case). God merely knowing that I will do something is not restricting me from doing something else, even if I will be doing what God knows I will do.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865646]That would imply that things happen because God knows that they will happen, that is not not what I am saying. The precise nature of God's omniscience is a debated topic with Christianity, but it's vital that free will exist in parallel with it(thus meaning that your statement is not the case).[/QUOTE] No, it means that the two ideas conflict with each other. Simply because a religion states that two things are true does not mean that those things are true. [QUOTE]God merely knowing that I will do something is not restricting me from doing something else, even if I will be doing what God knows I will do.[/QUOTE] Yes, actually, it is restricting you. If you are given the choice between A or B and God knows in advance you will choose B, where did your free will come in?

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865523]Is logic a restriction of nature or of the human mind?[/QUOTE] The physical world is assumed to be logical. Without this assumption no science would be possible. Notice that the assumption is that it IS logical, not that it causes logic. It would then follow that logic is not bound by the universe. We have no reason to assume that it would be bound to the physical universe in the same way that we have reason to believe that gravity, for example, is bound within the physical universe. [QUOTE]I guess that's really why I can't think of any way to continue this discussion, we're asking a question that literally cannot be answered because the alternative is something that we cannot comprehend. Arguing over such a metaphysical question seems entirely pointless because anything we could say would be speculation for the viewpoint of a human being with limited comprehension.[/QUOTE] Note that the subject came up because you claimed that an omnipotent being would be able to make illogical statements into reality.

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865698]No, it means that the two ideas conflict with each other. Simply because a religion states that two things are true does not mean that those things are true.[/QUOTE] There is no doctrine in Christendom that makes the same claims as you have in stating that God's knowing something to happen causes that thing to happen, that would be determinism and has no place in Christianity. The ideas only conflict under that specific case that you constructed. [QUOTE]Yes, actually, it is restricting you. If you are given the choice between A or B and God knows in advance you will choose B, where did your free will come in?[/QUOTE] Why does his knowing interfere with my ability to make the choice at all?

[QUOTE=sgman91;43865742]The physical world is assumed to be logical. Without this assumption no science would be possible. Notice that the assumption is that it IS logical, not that it causes logic. It would then follow that logic is not bound by the universe. We have no reason to assume that it would be bound to the physical universe in the same way that we have reason to believe that gravity, for example, is bound within the physical universe. Note that the subject came up because you claimed that an omnipotent being would be able to make illogical statements into reality.[/QUOTE] Over the course of this argument I've slowly come to the conclusion that arguing over something so metaphysical is kind of pointless. Assumptions like that are necessary to make sense of the world around us but when dealing with a concept as abstract and unobservable as omnipotence it seems practically impossible to come to any sort of logical conclusion, so it seems to me at least that any discussion we could have about it would be meaningless. [editline]10th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865751]There is no doctrine in Christendom that makes the same claims as you have in stating that God's knowing something to happen causes that thing to happen, that would be determinism and has no place in Christianity. The ideas only conflict under that specific case that you constructed.[/QUOTE] But they do claim that God knows everything and that people have free will. [QUOTE]Why does his knowing interfere with my ability to make the choice at all?[/QUOTE] Because if God knows in advance that when given the choice between A and B you choose B, when the time comes for you to make that decision you [I]will[/I] pick B. If you actually had free will, God wouldn't be able to know whether you'd choose A or B because you haven't made that decision yet.

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865813]But they do claim that God knows everything and that people have free will. Because if God knows in advance that when given the choice between A and B you choose B, when the time comes for you to make that decision you [I]will[/I] pick B. If you actually had free will, God wouldn't be able to know whether you'd choose A or B because you haven't made that decision yet.[/QUOTE] I do not pick B because God knows that I will pick B though.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865873]I do not pic B because God knows that I will pick B though.[/QUOTE] We must have very different definitions of free will because in my mind if you're already destined to choose B before the decision is even presented to you, you don't really have the freedom to choose for yourself.

God knows you will not choose A. Therefore you choosing A is not an option at the time of making the choice. Your only option, therefore, is B. A choice in which you only have one option is not actually a choice. Which part of this statement do you find logically inconsistent?

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865893]We must have very different definitions of free will because in my mind if you're already destined to choose B before the decision is even presented to you, you don't really have the freedom to choose for yourself.[/QUOTE] Well one school of thought in Christianity(Molinism) is that God knows you will choose B because you choose B.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865959]Well one school of thought in Christianity(Molinism) is that God knows you will choose B because you choose B.[/QUOTE] But he still knew you would choose B before it happened, so you never really had the option to pick A, so you never really had free will.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865959]Well one school of thought in Christianity(Molinism) is that God knows you will choose B because you choose B.[/QUOTE] No matter how he knows, he still knows before you actually choose. The same problems arise. Edit: Too slow.

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865975]But he still knew you would choose B before it happened, so you never really had the option to pick A, so you never really had free will.[/QUOTE] That's not restricting me from picking A though as he draws from my act of picking B that I will pick B.