Religion Of Christianity - General

As I've said before, he still knows it before you ever "choose". The same logical inconsistencies arise no matter how you want to phrase it.

[QUOTE=Danta7;43866015]As I've said before, he still knows it before you ever "choose". The same logical inconsistencies arise no matter how you want to phrase it.[/QUOTE] You still haven't displayed how that has any limiting factor on the choice itself though, especially in the case of molinism where he is specifically drawing the knowledge of the act in question from the fact that we commit it.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43866003]That's not restricting me from picking A though as he draws from my act of picking B that I will pick B.[/QUOTE] You're just dancing around the problem by saying the same thing with a different use of language. You are restricted from picking A. God knew that you would pick B before you ever made a conscious decision, meaning that it was predetermined that you would pick B before the decision arose.

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43865562]Yes, actually, there would be something the would restrict you in that for God to be able to know your decision before it happens you must have always been destined to make that choice.[/QUOTE] That would be true in a linear sense. But since every possible action can effect something in the future, that would mean that there is more than one possible outcome for every action. That is what would provide free will. I feel it would make more sense to say that God knows all possible outcomes of our actions, rather than just saying "God knows the future". That aside, when did this become a argumentative thread? I don't think this thread makes anyone's religious or atheistic beliefs look promising.

[QUOTE=Tosmatobeef;43866240]That would be true in a linear sense. But since every possible action can effect something in the future, that would mean that there is more than one possible outcome for every action. That is what would provide free will. I feel it would make more sense to say that God know all possible outcomes of our actions, rather than just saying "God know the future". That aside, when did this become a argumentative thread? I don't think this thread makes anyone's religious or atheistic beliefs look promising.[/QUOTE] If the future is comprised of multiple possible outcomes instead of being linear, your consciousness can still only follow one of those outcomes and God, being omniscient, would know which outcome that is, leading us back to the same problem.

If God knows all multiple possible outcomes, then he does not know which outcome will happen. God is supposed to know everything. To try to get the thread back on track, I will explain my position as an anti-faith: It is best to behave in a way that tends toward the best possible outcome. To do this, you must understand the way the universe works. Faith is believing something despite evidence that the universe does not actually behave that way. If the evidence pointed to the universe behaving a certain way, you would not need faith to believe it. If your actions are based on a belief system that does not accurately reflect the way the world seems to work (the definition of faith), then your actions will not be optimal. Therefore faith is immoral. Edit: Several ninja edits. Sorry.

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43866068]You're just dancing around the problem by saying the same thing with a different use of language. You are restricted from picking A. God knew that you would pick B before you ever made a conscious decision, meaning that it was predetermined that you would pick B before the decision arose.[/QUOTE] You seem to be assuming God dwells in the present then, as if from his perspective it is like seeing the future from ours. The fact of the matter is that he knows the future like we know the past(of course under molinism), since we the pyramids of Giza were constructed, we know that they were constructed. Likewise since we choose B, God knows we will choose B, God knows it as if it were done as from his perspective it has been done.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43866403]You seem to be assuming God dwells in the present then, as if from his perspective it is like seeing the future from ours. The fact of the matter is that he knows the future like we know the past(of course under molinism), since we the pyramids of Giza were constructed, we know that they were constructed. Likewise since we choose B, God knows we will choose B, God knows it as if it were done as from his perspective it has been done.[/QUOTE] How does this change anything that I've said?

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43866403]You seem to be assuming God dwells in the present then, as if from his perspective it is like seeing the future from ours. The fact of the matter is that he knows the future like we know the past(of course under molinism), since we the pyramids of Giza were constructed, we know that they were constructed. Likewise since we choose B, God knows we will choose B, God knows it as if it were done as from his perspective it has been done.[/QUOTE] If anything, this only makes it less likely that free will exists.

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43866409]How does this change anything that I've said?[/QUOTE] Under molinism(or any other school of thought on this subject) God's omniscience is not fortune telling, it's akin to knowing a historical event happened. So unless you knowing that Pharaoh Khufu ordered for the construction of the Great pyramids means that he had no free will, there is no issue with omniscience and free will coexisting.

If I knew Khufu did it before he did it, then... Khufu couldn't have not done it, or I wouldn't know he did it. Humans experience time linearly. You cannot draw a parallel between a hypothetical being which somehow resides outside of time and an actual human being who does experience time in the only way we know. Instead, you simply have to say that God does it by not making any sense because he exists outside of the causal universe he created, while at the same time providing zero evidence that such a God exists. In other words, you need to have faith- willful ignorance of the way you actually experience the universe.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43866456]Under molinism(or any other school of thought on this subject) God's omniscience is not fortune telling, it's akin to knowing a historical event happened. So unless you knowing that Khufu ordered for the construction of the Great pyramids means that he had no free will, there is no issue with omniscience and free will coexisting.[/QUOTE] What God's perspective is has no relevance whatsoever. It still doesn't change the fact that that decision was set in stone regardless.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43866403]You seem to be assuming God dwells in the present then, as if from his perspective it is like seeing the future from ours. The fact of the matter is that he knows the future like we know the past(of course under molinism), since we the pyramids of Giza were constructed, we know that they were constructed. Likewise since we choose B, God knows we will choose B, God knows it as if it were done as from his perspective it has been done.[/QUOTE] yes. That's what I'm saying. Have been saying. And will continue to say. He sees all time. He knows before it happens your choices, he even knows his own choices before he makes them knowledge of the future might cause ordainment of the future. Certainly if that knowledge is from the ultimate in knowledge.

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43866506]What God's perspective is has no relevance whatsoever. It still doesn't change the fact that that decision was set in stone regardless.[/QUOTE] It's vital as his unique perspective allows him to see the things that will be from our perspective as having already happened. Thus being no different than our knowledge of an event in the past. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43866511]He sees all time. He knows before it happens your choices, he even knows his own choices before he makes them knowledge of the future might cause ordainment of the future. Certainly if that knowledge is from the ultimate in knowledge.[/QUOTE] The thing is though that He does not know them to be fact by necessity, He could have easily known them to be a possible outcome along with the factual outcome. So God's knowledge of events in the future does not make those events fact, the fact of the events makes God know them to be fact.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43866606]It's vital as his unique perspective allows him to see the things that will be from our perspective as having already happened. Thus being no different than our knowledge of an event in the past.[/QUOTE] Yes, and the past is already set in stone, so in other words exactly the same problem arises. [QUOTE]The thing is though that He does not know them to be fact by necessity, He could have easily known them to be a possible outcome along with the factual outcome. So God's knowledge of events in the future does not make those events fact, the fact of the events makes God know them to be fact.[/QUOTE] What the hell does any of this actually mean?

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43866679]Yes, and the past is already set in stone, so in other words exactly the same problem arises.[/QUOTE] You have no influence on the choices the people of the past made by merely knowing what they chose. [QUOTE]What the hell does any of this actually mean?[/QUOTE] Whenever a choice is made there is the factual outcome(our choice) and the possible outcomes, The factual outcome is not necessarily factual, any of the possible outcomes could have been the factual outcome instead. So there is no actual restriction on the which on is the factual outcome.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43866760]You have no influence on the choices the people of the past made by merely knowing what they chose.[/QUOTE] But as I've said countless times already it doesn't [I]matter[/I] whether or not God influences people's choices. The fact that he can know what choices will be made is the only thing that matters here. [QUOTE]Whenever a choice is made there is the factual outcome(our choice) and the possible outcomes, The factual outcome is not necessarily factual, any of the possible outcomes could have been the factual outcome instead. So there is no actual restriction on the which on is the factual outcome.[/QUOTE] But only one of those possible outcomes will be the "factual" outcome, so once again, this changes nothing even if it is true (which you have absolutely no proof of to begin with.)

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43866760] Whenever a choice is made there is the factual outcome(our choice) and the possible outcomes, The factual outcome is not necessarily factual, any of the possible outcomes could have been the factual outcome instead. So there is no actual restriction on the which on is the factual outcome.[/QUOTE] Re read this and tell me it doesn't mean nothing. You've contradicted yourself

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43866760]Whenever a choice is made there is the factual outcome(our choice) and the possible outcomes, The factual outcome is not necessarily factual, any of the possible outcomes could have been the factual outcome instead. So there is no actual restriction on the which on is the factual outcome.[/QUOTE] I started writing this post with the intention of supporting the possibility of free will with an omniscient creator that knows all future states of the universe, but with each approach I took I ended up with insurmountable contradictions. I did my best, but you kind of obliterated your argument beyond repair with this post: [QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;43865002][QUOTE]Tell me, does god right now know how your life will end and whether or not you will make it into heaven?[/QUOTE] Yes.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Ziks;43868816]I started writing this post with the intention of supporting the possibility of free will with an omniscient creator that knows all future states of the universe, but with each approach I took I ended up with insurmountable contradictions.[/QUOTE] If free will and God exists it's reasonable to say that he knows all the possibilities. Instead of knowing all future states he knows all possible future states.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43868855]If free will and God exists it's reasonable to say that he knows all the possibilities. Instead of knowing all future states he knows all possible future states.[/QUOTE] If he doesn't know the final outcome of these "states" then he's not really omniscient.

:rock: Heil satan :rock:

[QUOTE=Explosions;43868886]If he doesn't know the final outcome of these "states" then he's not really omniscient.[/QUOTE] You have to remember that all states happen at the same time from an omnipresent point of view. We are the ones that are limited to a single state.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43868855]If free will and God exists it's reasonable to say that he knows all the possibilities. Instead of knowing all future states he knows all possible future states.[/QUOTE] If God is free to explore all possible futures then He is effectively simulating their execution in his mind. We wouldn't be able to determine whether we are in the "actual" reality (of which there is only one), or one of the instances of a reality He is conceptually exploring (of which there is no limit). The probability of us being in one of His conceptual explorations of the future would be significantly higher than the alternative. Not saying that you get a contradiction from that being the case, only that the logical conclusion may be a bit uncomfortable.

[QUOTE=Geikkamir;43866849]But as I've said countless times already it doesn't [I]matter[/I] whether or not God influences people's choices. The fact that he can know what choices will be made is the only thing that matters here.[/QUOTE] So you accept his knowing that we will make the choice has no influence on us making the choice? [QUOTE]But only one of those possible outcomes will be the "factual" outcome, so once again, this changes nothing even if it is true (which you have absolutely no proof of to begin with.)[/QUOTE] I do not quite get what you mean by proof, this is one of the three predominant views on God's omniscience within Christian thought, thus I was under the impression we were talking within the realms of Christianity. Do you want scriptural proof for what I am saying or are you simply demanding that I prove God's existence before you'll take this discussion any further? I still don't see how ultimately one choice being factual is of issue though given it is our own choice.

[QUOTE=Ziks;43869449]If God is free to explore all possible futures then He is effectively simulating their execution in his mind. We wouldn't be able to determine whether we are in the "actual" reality (of which there is only one), or one of the instances of a reality He is conceptually exploring (of which there is no limit). The probability of us being in one of His conceptual explorations of the future would be significantly higher than the alternative. Not saying that you get a contradiction from that being the case, only that the logical conclusion may be a bit uncomfortable.[/QUOTE] Cogito ergo sum. Thinking whether or not you are real is useless. Might as well waste your time wondering if other people are real or if they stop existing when they leave.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43869804]Cogito ergo sum. Thinking whether or not you are real is useless. Might as well waste your time wondering if other people are real or if they stop existing when they leave.[/QUOTE] We would still be real and exist, but if God was free to explore all possible futures it would be extremely unlikely that the reality we exist within is the "true" reality.

[QUOTE=Ziks;43869901]We would still be real and exist, but if God was free to explore all possible futures it would be extremely unlikely that the reality we exist within is the "true" reality.[/QUOTE] All realities are real.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43870023]All realities are real.[/QUOTE] As I said: [QUOTE=Ziks;43869449]Not saying that you get a contradiction from that being the case, only that the logical conclusion may be a bit uncomfortable.[/QUOTE] It's only a problem if you are particularly attached to the idea of there only being one "you", one "reality", etc. [editline]11th February 2014[/editline] I suppose an interesting side effect if God were to contemplate the effect of acting vs not acting for every divine intervention in chronological order, you would end up with the vast majority of resulting conceptual universes being ones where there is a sequence of divine interventions up to some finite point in history, and then no contact from God for the remaining time. Which is one explanation for the plethora of recorded interventions thousands of years ago and then no interventions after that. [sp]An alternative explanation is that before we properly recorded events, things were passed between generations via word of mouth. This is subject to (unintentional) exaggeration or misremembering, so you would expect stories would inflate in improbability over time.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Ziks;43870025] I suppose an interesting side effect if God were to contemplate the effect of acting vs not acting for every divine intervention in chronological order, you would end up with the vast majority of resulting conceptual universes being ones where there is a sequence of divine interventions up to some finite point in history, and then no contact from God for the remaining time. Which is one explanation for the plethora of recorded interventions thousands of years ago and then no interventions after that. [sp]An alternative explanation is that before we properly recorded events, things were passed between generations via word of mouth. This is subject to (unintentional) exaggeration or misremembering, so you would expect stories would inflate in improbability over time.[/sp][/QUOTE] God cannot interfere directly. It's against his own rules. All he can do is give people a "head up" and even so, he won't force people.