I don't mind the bullet count for most games, it's not realistic but it is a lot more convenient for making sure you always have enough ammunition to bulldoze through the next swarm of enemies.
Definitely like the mag system better for ArmA.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;32922187]Regardless of the body armour's ability to stop penetration, getting hit would still fucking hurt. Don't forget about the speed and mass of the bullet, that force is going to be transferred to the plate and then you.[/QUOTE] So? You won't die and that's what matters.
I love how KF tricked people though. KF is more real because it uses mags, and yet it doesn't.
Also bullet pool is easier to program :D
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;32922187]Regardless of the body armour's ability to stop penetration, getting hit would still fucking hurt. Don't forget about the speed and mass of the bullet, that force is going to be transferred to the plate and then you. And also, ceramic/steel inserts only cover the front of the abdomen. There's still a good bit of surface area for a bullet to potentially strike.[/quote]
It'll hurt, but bullets actually don't have all that much kinetic energy, and the force is spread out over quite a large area. There was a guy who sold body armor and regularly gave demos involving another person shooting him in the vest. Also, ESAPI plates are used for both front and back of the chest. Side plates and soft armor like a PACA will cover the gaps left over quite well.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32922249]So? You won't die and that's what matters.[/QUOTE] Yeah, that's the reason it bloody exists :v:
But my point is, in a game I suppose armour is accounted for by the loss of health in its self. I'm sure that if we had health bars IRL it'd be reduced somewhat after catching a bullet in your insert.
That brings me on to an issue I have with games like Counterstrike, there's no penalty for actually being hit except for having your movement speed reduced for half a second, so as long as that number in the bottom left hand stays above 0 you're still as capable as otherwise. It gives you less of an incentive to avoid enemy fire. Even something like having your aiming disrupted by being hit is something, like in CoD (Incoming hate).
I think forcing the player to jerk their aim when hit in a plate would be fine. I just don't want to keep getting wasted straight through my armor.
[QUOTE=iFail;32922333]I think forcing the player to jerk their aim when hit in a plate would be fine. I just don't want to keep getting wasted straight through my armor.[/QUOTE] Ideally it wouldn't just "jerk" your aim, it'd fuck it for a good few seconds at least.
A previously unmentioned item of relation is suppression systems. The effect of suppressive fire in real life dependent on the suppressed person's fear of death. But since death is temporary in games, that effect is massively reduced. So, other things must be put in place to simulate the player character's fear.
Project Reality handles it by blurring your vision when a bullet lands near or zips past your head, basically making you unable to aim. Your only options are to either break cover and retreat, or stay put and wait for them to stop firing, but by doing so you're risking being flanked. Furthermore, if you're going to get up and return fire, the enemy will already have you acquired which basically means you're gonna get shot before you even clock the guy.
I also like the system Resistance and Liberation has. Suppressive fire causes wavering of the weapon, slightly blurred/wavy vision, and the effect lasts for a good 20 seconds, to varying degrees. This makes you practically unable to return fire. The same effect happens if you see one of your teammates die in close proximity, simulating the player character shitting his kegs.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;32922019]Another feature I find lacking in many games is the complete absence of the state of incapacitation. I dislike the fact that once a number reaches 0 you're completely dead. While it may contradict my usual stance towards realism in games, it adds an extra teamwork factor when someone can be revived.
In PR, if you're incapacitated you can be revived by a medic, but you only come back with 15-20% hp - At this point your vision's blurred and black and white, making you pretty much combat ineffective. The medic then has to spend time healing you back to full. If you get "killed" again within 1 minute of being revived, then you're dead and must respawn. I like this system a lot.
In FA, nobody can be revived, but since the team's ability to respawn is dependent on whether there are reinforcement tickets left, medics can somewhat mitigate the reduction in tickets by finding a body and stabilising or medevacing it, depending on the medic skill level. It's a more realistic approach to the matter, but it doesn't hugely affect gameplay.[/QUOTE]
Concerning incapacitation I think the reason why few games have it is because it isn't exactly fun to be stuck doing nothing until someone revives you, with some people preferring to just die and respawn to get back into the fight. The parkour shooter Brink had a system whereby if you were incapacitated you could either wait for a Medic (or revive yourself if you have the right ability) or join the next spawn-wave, as well as certain abilities allowing you to fight back, such as Downed Fire for all classes or the Cortex Bomb for Operatives, the former giving you the ability to fight back if you go down. Left 4 Dead also had Incapacitation, whereby you'd be bleeding out on the floor until someone got you back onto your feet, though you could still use a Pistol whilst downed, even if you switched out your Pistol for a melee weapon. Still being able to do stuff when incapacitated is kind of a good thing since it is fun.
The PR system sounds good; being brought back up with low health means you don't just get up and rush back into enemy fire, meaning you gotta take the time to find your marbles before re-entering the fray. Also, are Medics rewarded for healing a guy after reviving him, and is triage-like behaviour rewarded? (Treating the severe cases first)
FA's "stabilise/medevac bodies" system seems to be oriented more towards "team health" instead of simple player health; since if you're out of respawn tickets and the enemy still has some left it's simply a matter of the enemy team killing the remaining soldiers.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;32922456]Ideally it wouldn't just "jerk" your aim, it'd fuck it for a good few seconds at least.
A previously unmentioned item of relation is suppression systems. The effect of suppressive fire in real life dependent on the suppressed person's fear of death. But since death is temporary in games, that effect is massively reduced. So, other things must be put in place to simulate the player character's fear.
Project Reality handles it by blurring your vision when a bullet lands near or zips past your head, basically making you unable to aim. Your only options are to either break cover and retreat, or stay put and wait for them to stop firing, but by doing so you're risking being flanked. Furthermore, if you're going to get up and return fire, the enemy will already have you acquired which basically means you're gonna get shot before you even clock the guy.
I also like the system Resistance and Liberation has. Suppressive fire causes wavering of the weapon, slightly blurred/wavy vision, and the effect lasts for a good 20 seconds, to varying degrees. This makes you practically unable to return fire. The same effect happens if you see one of your teammates die in close proximity, simulating the player character shitting his kegs.[/QUOTE]
That would significantly slow down the gameplay though, and I love CoD games for being so fast-paced.
I hate the suppression in ARMA 2 though. It gets quite frustrating when enemies are barely landing rounds anywhere near you, or you're behind cover and rounds are going over it, and suddenly you have cerebral palsy.
[QUOTE=ironman17;32922507] Brink had a system whereby if you were incapacitated you could either wait for a Medic (or revive yourself if you have the right ability) or join the next spawn-wave[/QUOTE]
I neglected to mention that you can wait up to four minutes to be revived in PR, but you can choose respawn after about 30 seconds. However it's such a slow-paced game that it's inadvisable to do so until the chance of revival is nil.
There are no rewards in the game, you have your points on the scoreboard, but mainly the fact that your squadmate is in the state known as "not dead". You might also consider praise from your squad leader a reward too. Also, in PR, being incapacitated does lose the team 1 ticket, which is an incentive to avoid it happening. A second is deducted if you are rendered dead dead.
[editline]23rd October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=iFail;32922601]I hate the suppression in ARMA 2 though. It gets quite frustrating when enemies are barely landing rounds anywhere near you, or you're behind cover and rounds are going over it, and suddenly you have cerebral palsy.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but don't tell me you wouldn't shit yourself if very fast chunks of lead were flying beyond the speed of sound in close proximity to you. The loud "SNAP" a passing bullet makes would be intimidating as fuck
[editline]23rd October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;32922548]That would significantly slow down the gameplay though, and I love CoD games for being so fast-paced.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm aware that it wouldn't be appropriate in CoD, because CoD is CoD. There are games where it's perfectly fun to storm about the place, getting shot and not giving a flying fuck, like Quake and UT. But since the OP/Thread is about round v mag count, it's a bit redundant talk about such games.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;32922456]A previously unmentioned item of relation is suppression systems. The effect of suppressive fire in real life dependent on the suppressed person's fear of death. But since death is temporary in games, that effect is massively reduced. So, other things must be put in place to simulate the player character's fear.
Project Reality handles it by blurring your vision when a bullet lands near or zips past your head, basically making you unable to aim. Your only options are to either break cover and retreat, or stay put and wait for them to stop firing, but by doing so you're risking being flanked. Furthermore, if you're going to get up and return fire, the enemy will already have you acquired which basically means you're gonna get shot before you even clock the guy.
I also like the system Resistance and Liberation has. Suppressive fire causes wavering of the weapon, slightly blurred/wavy vision, and the effect lasts for a good 20 seconds, to varying degrees. This makes you practically unable to return fire. The same effect happens if you see one of your teammates die in close proximity, simulating the player character shitting his kegs.[/QUOTE]
Ah yes, suppressive fire; the tactic of lead-based intimidation and pinning down the enemy. Problem with that is that, like you said, death is temporary, and the threat of death isn't as intimidating towards a player who can soak up plenty of hits or just jump back into the fray after a 20-second stint in limbo. Another aspect of this is that death isn't necessarily penalised in some games, although the killstreak system kind of works with this as well, since in most games dying resets your killstreak; TF2's Demoknight has kind of a "killstreak" system whereby gathering Heads increases the health and speed of the player, and dying resets your head-count.
Asides from killstreaks, there are other ways to make death seem more like something to avoid. One way would be having a long respawn time (more than 30 seconds), but that leaves players with little-to-nothing to do, which would be boring and could potentially cause impatient players to ragequit after the 3rd death. A solution to that problem would be there being things for a player to do during that long respawn, such as sorting out their loadout or assigning skill points or even some sort of simple minigame to occupy them before they re-enter the fray.
Another way to discourage death and encourage not running into enemy fire would be some sort of penalty for stupid deaths. For example, if you charge directly into a hail of supersonic lead, knowing full-well the guy was there with the Vulcan spun-up, or jumping out of an airplane without first grabbing a parachute, or standing too close to an explosive barrel, that counts as a stupid death since you weren't paying attention or took unnecessary risks, whereas being sniped in the head by an Aussie when there was no cover in the area, or being stabbed by an infiltrator that you didn't have any suspicions about, or being blown to bits by a heat-seeking anti-personnel missile, those deaths aren't stupid because you were unable to successfully prevent them from occuring. Stupid deaths would be penalised, discouraging you from putting yourself in those situations, whereas unavoidable/unfair deaths would be consoled, possibly even giving you some small incentive to go on (decreased respawn time?), as if to say "no hard feelings". (it'd have to be rather small; not big enough to count as a reward for dying, but still enough to keep you from ragequitting, whilst still not big enough to encourage seeking-out unfair deaths)
Not all guns use mags, what about shotguns, bolt actions, lever guns, revolvers, muskets, etc?
The value of a bullet is a lot higher in some games than others, wasting a whole mag in a game like...Zombie Panic: Source would be pretty painful.
How will a game detect you rushed? What if you had to get close to a barrel and take the risk because there was no other choice? What if there were no chutes in the plane?
[editline]23rd October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=nox;32923196]Not all guns use mags, what about shotguns, bolt actions, lever guns, revolvers, muskets, etc?
The value of a bullet is a lot higher in some games than others, wasting a whole mag in a game like...Zombie Panic: Source would be pretty painful.[/QUOTE]
Playing ZPS would be pretty painful.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32923252]How will a game detect you rushed? What if you had to get close to a barrel and take the risk because there was no other choice? What if there were no chutes in the plane?[/QUOTE]
Well, running towards an explosive barrel when it's burning or hissing is kinda foolish, a worse and less-avoidable way to go than being shot, and in terms of parachutes you'd probably have to consider staying in the plane until another parachute is available, or even wait for the plane to land. Such things would be mandatory for any game that has planes or parachutes, whereas having no parachute resupply or the plane not being able to land would be pretty poor design choices.
[QUOTE=ironman17;32923605]Well, running towards an explosive barrel when it's burning or hissing is kinda foolish, a worse and less-avoidable way to go than being shot, and in terms of parachutes you'd probably have to consider staying in the plane until another parachute is available, or even wait for the plane to land. Such things would be mandatory for any game that has planes or parachutes, whereas having no parachute resupply or the plane not being able to land would be pretty poor design choices.[/QUOTE]
What if I am backing off and don't notice the barrel because it's behind my back? That would be as foolish as getting stabbed from behind. I often run past burning barrels in hl2dm and got blown up only like 4 times.
As for planes, well it can't land if it's being shot and and falling down the sky.
I think such system would be really stupid and all it would do is limit the way you play.
This is why I stay away from realistic shooters.
I've found out that 1 bullet could make all the difference, and I have compulsive reloading syndrome, even when handling large mags of more then 30 bullets or even 100 bullet count mags.
I also use up alot of bullets and in singleplayer games, I get too worried if I am 1 bullet less of the max for the weapon in question. So, I'm all for bullet count, because I'm used to it.
[QUOTE=dass;32923770]This is why I stay away from realistic shooters.
I've found out that 1 bullet could make all the difference, and I have compulsive reloading syndrome, even when handling large mags of more then 30 bullets or even 100 bullet count mags.
I also use up alot of bullets and in singleplayer games, I get too worried if I am 1 bullet less of the max for the weapon in question. So, I'm all for bullet count, because I'm used to it.[/QUOTE]
Games that have no hud/hide the hud stress me out because I have no idea how much of what I have left.
Was recently playing psychonauts and I was stressed because it didn't show how much life or ammo I had.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32923904]Games that have no hud/hide the hud stress me out because I have no idea how much of what I have left.
Was recently playing psychonauts and I was stressed because it didn't show how much life or ammo I had.[/QUOTE]
Eh, it does show you how much life/ammo you have left in psychonauts.
I would prefer a system that used mag count, but keeps magazines your throw away.
That way, it would automatically reload the magazine you have with the most bullets in it. If you run out of full mags, it would choose the next best thing.
In Arma 2, when you reload if there are no bullets left in the magazine then it is disposed off however if there is even 1 left it is put to the back of cycle.
I always prefer magazine based reloads. Bullet counts are silly, and it's the number one people have started to hate magazine reloads.
No, I don't have any numbers, but I can almost guarantee you most gamers of FP are compulsive reloaders. Even I do it a little, out of bad habit (thanks L4D you jerk).
In terms of controls, RO2 did it pretty well. Though I think it'd be better if R cycled magazines, holding R would give you a fresh one. Easy enough.
Just tossing this in: The only game I find that has done reloading right is SOCOM for the PS2.
You get a standard 3 magazines to start with (one of the extra expendables you can add in the lobby is extra ammo) and everytime you reload, you put in a new magazine. However, this means if you leave the first magazine with 14 bullets left in it, when you reload that third time and go back to the first magazine, you're still going to have 14 bullets. You're not magically going to have more bullets in your first mag simply because you only left 14 bullets in it.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;32922278]Yeah, that's the reason it bloody exists :v:
But my point is, in a game I suppose armour is accounted for by the loss of health in its self. I'm sure that if we had health bars IRL it'd be reduced somewhat after catching a bullet in your insert.
That brings me on to an issue I have with games like Counterstrike, there's no penalty for actually being hit except for having your movement speed reduced for half a second, so as long as that number in the bottom left hand stays above 0 you're still as capable as otherwise. It gives you less of an incentive to avoid enemy fire. Even something like having your aiming disrupted by being hit is something, like in CoD (Incoming hate).[/QUOTE]
In CS:S if you get shot in the head and it doesn't kill you, your aim messes up.
Magazine count is to a degree more realistic than bullet count. It's an immersive concept, which is why I like it.
I haven't played many games that use a magazine count though. GRAW1 and GRAW2 use it. I don't think magazine count would work for run and gun games because you're just flying around shooting whatever head pops out first. In the GRAW games most guns have the option of semi-auto firing, and the game requires tactics to be successful. So magazine count does work pretty well in the GRAW games.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.