Why hasn't "under god" been removed from the American pledge? - General

[QUOTE=lazyguy;18768141]Allah is in a different language. It's just God in Arabic. Muslims believe in the same god as Christians and Jews.[/QUOTE] But people would get upset because of the negative stereotype of Muslims. If the Pledge said 'under Allah', it would be specifically directed towards followers of Islam. 'God' leaves it as anyone's God, not just Allah or Yahweh.

Not really, it's just a different fucking language. Christians who speak Arabic say Allah as well. You can say Gott it doesn't change just because it's German.

[QUOTE=NoShogun;18768185]But people would get upset because of the negative stereotype of Muslims. If the Pledge said 'under Allah', it would be specifically directed towards followers of Islam. 'God' leaves it as anyone's God, not just Allah or Yahweh.[/QUOTE] No, it does not. It is perfectly clear which God they are referring to. If Allah excludes out Christians, God would, and does, exclude Muslims.

[QUOTE=Kukuzi;18768239]No, it does not. It is perfectly clear which God they are referring to. If Allah excludes out Christians, God would, and does, exclude Muslims.[/QUOTE] But it doesn't.

[QUOTE=lazyguy;18768262]But it doesn't.[/QUOTE] If it said "Under a God" it wouldn't be exclusionary. "under God", is.

[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;18768161]As an Athiest, I can say. Why does anyone give a fuck?[/QUOTE] Why be [i]passive[/i] when you can [i]angry[/i] and [i]offended[/i] and beg for restitution out of a sense of entitlement like every other moaning minority?

ITT: The GD loves to argue.

[QUOTE=Kukuzi;18768320]If it said "Under a God" it wouldn't be exclusionary. "under God", is.[/QUOTE] It doesn't exclude Muslims like you claim. [editline]07:14PM[/editline] No more than the first word being 'I' rather than 'Je' excludes Francophiles.

[QUOTE=SantanaDVX;18767718]I'm totally ignoring the past 10 pages of responses and answering the OP's question: "Under God" was added to the pledge in the 1940's because Jahova's Witnesses' belief system doesn't allow them to pledge themselves to anything other than God or God-affiliated things. The Government saw this as a potential problem, with a bunch of possible rebels running around in the states, so they added 2 words to the pledge in order to ensure their allegience to the States. That's the short answer, at least. [editline]12:26PM[/editline] Yes, it was. The reason we, as a country, are so generally conservative as opposed to the liberal atmosphere of almost every other major western country is because our country is loosely founded upon the beliefs of the Puritans, an extremely conservative Christian sect. They were the first people to arrive and set up colonies, so obviously their beliefs are still at least a little bit present with us now.[/QUOTE] They weren't forced to do the pledge so the Jehovah's Witnesses can fuck off. It was added in 1954 when the Cold War was nearly starting, because back then athiests were considered commies. Our country was not founded by Puritans, that was the beginning of the colonies. The Founding Fathers were not Puritan, and they kept religion out when forming several important documents. Also, Treaty of Tripoli: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

nobody says the pledge in my liberal commie school :smug: but yeah it was added in the 50s and now everyone thinks it was always there (CHRISTIAN NATION!!) so it will never get removed ever. peace bruddas

[QUOTE=NoShogun;18766441]I read the thread. So if schools equal state, how are we infringing on schools? Students shouldn't be forced to say the pledge, but removing the word 'God' would be a slap in the face to anyone who does believe in a God. The basis of monotheistic religion is faith in a God. Denying the existence of that God is considered, within the religion, wrong. However, it's no skin off an atheist or agnostic's bones to say 'under God'.[/QUOTE] As opposed to a slap in the face to people... who do believe in god and why should it be in the pledge? The basis of America is secular, so it's not only unconstitutional, it's a slap to the face to the founding fathers so there [QUOTE=BobbyDigital;18766375]The U.S. has long ago dropped Jeffersonian ideals. Did you know he would have hated major cities and the majority of the population living in them? Jefferson believed that our country should be an agrergian republic, and that the only freedom is the freedom of owning land, and being able to grow your own crops to feed yourself and your family.[/QUOTE] So Jefferson was a communist?

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;18768667]They weren't forced to do the pledge so the Jehovah's Witnesses can fuck off. It was added in 1954 when the Cold War was nearly starting, because back then athiests were considered commies. Our country was not founded by Puritans, that was the beginning of the colonies. The Founding Fathers were not Puritan, and they kept religion out when forming several important documents. Also, Treaty of Tripoli: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;" [/QUOTE] Alright, well the only explanations I can give to you as to why it hasn't been removed as of yet is: [B]-[/b]80% of American adults identify themselves as Christian, as of 2007 [B]-[/b]The words have been ingrained into our culture for the past 55 years, it would be rediculous to try to change what 300 million people have been taugh since childhood -[B][U]Nobody except loud, whiny minority members like you give a flying fuck[/B][/U] I'm atheist, and I don't give two shits about "under God" being in the pledge. I say the words every morning in school, too. Doesn't make me upset one bit. Also, I like how you say that the words "under God" in the pledge are unconstitutional and wrong, but you tell Jahova's witnesses to fuck off because their beliefs have been violated.

[QUOTE=Trotsky;18765480] watch as zareox says that anyone who doesn't do what he likes, doesn't like america. [/QUOTE] I'm saying if you don't respect the nation you live in, good or bad, and you don't bother to do anything about it, good or bad, why are you even living here?

[QUOTE=SantanaDVX;18768967]Alright, well the only explanations I can give to you as to why it hasn't been removed as of yet is: [B]-[/b]80% of American adults identify themselves as Christian, as of 2007 [B]-[/b]The words have been ingrained into our culture for the past 55 years, it would be rediculous to try to change what 300 million people have been taugh since childhood -[B][U]Nobody except loud, whiny minority members like you give a flying fuck[/B][/U] I'm atheist, and I don't give two shits about "under God" being in the pledge. I say the words every morning in school, too. Doesn't make me upset one bit.[/QUOTE] hi i'm a minority therefore my point is IRRELEVANT. [quote=NoShogun]I read the thread. So if schools equal state, how are we infringing on schools? Students shouldn't be forced to say the pledge, but removing the word 'God' would be a slap in the face to anyone who does believe in a God. The basis of monotheistic religion is faith in a God. Denying the existence of that God is considered, within the religion, wrong. However, it's no skin off an atheist or agnostic's bones to say 'under God'.[/quote] It wasn't a slap in the face when it didn't include the words and it shouldn't be considered one now.

[QUOTE=SantanaDVX;18768967]Alright, well the only explanations I can give to you as to why it hasn't been removed as of yet is: [B]-[/b]80% of American adults identify themselves as Christian, as of 2007 [B]-[/b]The words have been ingrained into our culture for the past 55 years, it would be rediculous to try to change what 300 million people have been taugh since childhood -[B][U]Nobody except loud, whiny minority members like you give a flying fuck[/B][/U] I'm atheist, and I don't give two shits about "under God" being in the pledge. I say the words every morning in school, too. Doesn't make me upset one bit.[/QUOTE] it would be rediculous to try and make sense of your posts. "hi i am santanadvx and I think tyranny of the majority is a good thing. i know nothing about history or politics" [QUOTE=Zareox7;18768976]I'm saying if you don't respect the nation you live in, good or bad, and you don't bother to do anything about it, good or bad, why are you even living here?[/QUOTE] trying to change something for the better = hating your own country, hm yes

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;18768999]hi i'm a minority therefore my point is IRRELEVANT.[/QUOTE] Hi I'm a part of the same minority you're in and I think that you give our group a reputation of whiny, bitchy, annoying individuals.

[QUOTE=Trotsky;18768913] So Jefferson was a communist?[/QUOTE] wtf trotsky

[QUOTE=Urkel01;18769036]"hi i am santanadvx and I think tyranny of the majority is a good thing. i know nothing about history or politics"[/QUOTE] "Tyranny of the Majority" is America's government, pretty much. What have you seen in the senate and white house for the past 100 years or so? A bunch of upper class, white men. [B]They[/B] were the people who have gotten our country up to the point it is today. What are we today? A first-rate, productive, powerful nation.

[QUOTE=SantanaDVX;18769108]I think that it is the most efficient form of government, yes. I share Plato's view: only the smart minority should hold power. Democracy usually results in mob rule.[/QUOTE] so you think tyranny is the best way to have a government run the nation. i hope you don't make president or get into any sort of power.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;18769146]so you think tyranny is the best way to have a government run the nation. i hope you don't make president or get into any sort of power.[/QUOTE] I'm afraid you don't know Plato very well. I think Oligarchy or Aristocracy is the best, but instead of the [B]rich[/B] being in power, the [B]smart[/B] should be in power, with the interests of the general public at heart.

[QUOTE=SantanaDVX;18769175]I'm afraid you don't know Plato very well. I think Oligarchy or Aristocracy is the best, but instead of the [B]rich[/B] being in power, the [B]smart[/B] should be in power.[/QUOTE] aristocracy is essentially the rich in power, what are you talking about.

[QUOTE=SantanaDVX;18769175]I'm afraid you don't know Plato very well. I think Oligarchy or Aristocracy is the best, but instead of the [B]rich[/B] being in power, the [B]smart[/B] should be in power.[/QUOTE] nah

*Sigh* Never bring politics and religion into a conversation... and we did both. As for the Athiests here, in a democracy, you're never going to satisfy every single person living there. Obviously people aren't going to like something. If you remove 'under god' its going to anger a lot of people who liked old traditions and probably Christians, if we leave it, we're going to anger a small amount of people that are athiests. In a democracy, the majority wins. You can see who wins here, its not that because your point is irrelevant, its because you are the minority, and although you have a voice, it's a smaller voice than the majority.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;18769182]aristocracy is essentially the rich in power, what are you talking about.[/QUOTE] Think of society like a body -Productive Which represents the abdomen. (Workers) — the labourers, carpenters, plumbers, masons, merchants, farmers, ranchers, etc. -Protective Which represents the chest. (Warriors or Guardians) — those who are adventurous, strong and brave; in the armed forces.-Governing Which represents the head. (Rulers or Philosopher Kings) — those who are [B]intelligent, rational, self-controlled, in love with wisdom, well suited to make decisions for the community.[/b] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato#The_State[/url] The bolded people are the ones who would be in power. It's not a democracy, but it's still a fair system. It's not tyranny, either. It's a type of oligarchy.

[QUOTE=SantanaDVX;18769266]Think of society like a body -Productive Which represents the abdomen. (Workers) — the labourers, carpenters, plumbers, masons, merchants, farmers, ranchers, etc. These correspond to the "appetite" part of the soul. -Protective Which represents the chest. (Warriors or Guardians) — those who are adventurous, strong and brave; in the armed forces. These correspond to the "spirit" part of the soul. -Governing Which represents the head. (Rulers or Philosopher Kings) — those who are [B]intelligent, rational, self-controlled, in love with wisdom, well suited to make decisions for the community. These correspond to the "reason" part of the soul and are very few. [/B] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato#The_State[/url] The bolded people are the ones who would be in power. It's not a democracy, but it's still a fair system. Plato backs it, I back it too.[/QUOTE] good luck finding those kinds of people and getting this kind of government. plato's cool and all, but did he ever actual see this government in place and work correctly? just because a greek philosopher backs it doesn't mean it will work.

[QUOTE=SantanaDVX;18769266]Think of society like a body -Productive Which represents the abdomen. (Workers) — the labourers, carpenters, plumbers, masons, merchants, farmers, ranchers, etc. -Protective Which represents the chest. (Warriors or Guardians) — those who are adventurous, strong and brave; in the armed forces.-Governing Which represents the head. (Rulers or Philosopher Kings) — those who are [B]intelligent, rational, self-controlled, in love with wisdom, well suited to make decisions for the community.[/b] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato#The_State[/url] The bolded people are the ones who would be in power. It's not a democracy, but it's still a fair system. Plato backs it, I back it too.[/QUOTE] yeah you literally don't know anything about government structure, history or politics plato's a cool dude but you may recall that his ideas are over 2000 years old. maybe his ideal government wouldn't work in today's society...????

You don't have to say 'under god' if you don't want to. Besides, I don't think there is an official document that says 'This is the pledge of allegiance'. People just choose to say under god.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;18769285]good luck finding those kinds of people and getting this kind of government.[/QUOTE] It's still the best kind of government, in my mind and in theory. So, as you can now see, I don't support the tyrannical rule of the majorty, nor do I support tyranny or a dictatorship in any way whatsoever (unless it's a case such as [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnatus]Cincinnatus[/url]). I don't, however, think that democracy is the most efficient form of government.

[QUOTE=Urkel01;18769304]yeah you literally don't know anything about government structure, history or politics plato's a cool dude but you may recall that his ideas are over 2000 years old. maybe his ideal government wouldn't work in today's society...????[/QUOTE] I call you out on the history part sir, you obviously don't know it because otherwise you would know that all of today's societies are based on ancient civilizations one way or another, and the base ideas are still the same. Times have changed yes, but you still have greedy bastards trying to reach the top of the triangle and the poor workers getting walked on at the bottom.

[QUOTE=Urkel01;18769304]yeah you literally don't know anything about government structure, history or politics plato's a cool dude but you may recall that his ideas are over 2000 years old. maybe his ideal government wouldn't work in today's society...????[/QUOTE] Yeah, it would. Name me a better type of leader than an intelligent, moral, honest person with the interests of the general population at heart. I would have to say that [B]you[/B] are the one who literally doesn't know anything about government structure, history, or politics. [QUOTE=Zareox7;18769395]I call you out on the history part sir, you obviously don't know it because otherwise you would know that all of today's societies are based on ancient civilizations one way or another, and the base ideas are still the same. Times have changed yes, but you still have greedy bastards trying to reach the top of the triangle and the poor workers getting walked on at the bottom.[/QUOTE] You pretty much summed it up.