Extraterrestrials - Here/Real or not? - General

[QUOTE=Yumyumbublegum;35502717]From what I understand you think they are trying to show themselves slowly for fear of retaliation.[/QUOTE] No. My point is that what might seem illogical to us, could very well be logical to another being. We have absolutely no reason to assume that an ET with (much) higher intelligence is going to think and act exactly like we do. [QUOTE=Robbi;35503148]I love you. Also Rad McCool, I would like to point out how you avoid all questions I've asked you and just continued on blabbering highly unlikely and completely irrational theories with no support or reason behind them while throwing insults.[/QUOTE] Don't want to have an essay/essay style of discussion, but I can give you some answers if you really can't think of any yourself.

[QUOTE=Rad McCool;35507199]My point is that what might seem illogical to us, could very well be logical to another being. We have absolutely no reason to assume that an ET with (much) higher intelligence is going to think and act exactly like we do.[/quote] That is true, yes, but you fail to present that point in a sensible way. All I got from your posts was that you are convinced you know of some Alien planet with intelligent life, and that they are close to us, and they have already contacted our governments and intellectuals but are keeping it a secret (and strangely everyone has been able to keep it a secret who is working with them) so they can slowly mingle into our society. [QUOTE=Rad McCool;35507199] Don't want to have an essay/essay style of discussion, but I can give you some answers if you really can't think of any yourself.[/QUOTE] You do realize this is the debate section of these forums, no? You're just shouting things you imagine (that is probably from some science fiction book) and then when people ask you into it you simply say "OH GOD WHAT ARE YOU STUPID???? CANT YOU THINK OR YOUR SELF?!?!?! CAVEMEN!!!" But hey, I must have an IQ of 2 if I don't know why you believe something, right?

[QUOTE=Robbi;35507642]That is true, yes, but you fail to present that point in a sensible way. All I got from your posts was that you are convinced you know of some Alien planet with intelligent life, and that they are close to us, and they have already contacted our governments and intellectuals but are keeping it a secret (and strangely everyone has been able to keep it a secret who is working with them) so they can slowly mingle into our society.[/QUOTE] I am not in any way convinced that we are visited by ETs. But I'm open to the possibility since I don't think that we truly know what's possible or not.

[QUOTE=Rad McCool;35508182]I am not in any way convinced that we are visited by ETs. But I'm open to the possibility since I don't think that we truly know what's possible or not.[/QUOTE] Yes I'm not denying this, just like I cant deny that teapots aren't actually our secret overlords. But I prefer evidence over science fiction.

isn't there bacteria on mars?

[QUOTE=Liamhailhail2.0;35524581]isn't there bacteria on mars?[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_on_Mars[/url]

Theory: Mars is actually a young planet still trying to form life or Olympus Mons wiped everything out a long time ago leaving nothing left. Including lifeforms, that may or may not even existed.

If there is aliens can we please just stop fighting religious wars and concentrate on science?

[QUOTE=XxThreedogxX;35541735]If there is aliens can we please just stop fighting religious wars and concentrate on science?[/QUOTE] ok cool

I truly believe that there is life elsewhere in the Universe. If there wasn't... Well, that would be sad, wouldn't it be guys? All this space, and the only thing that can value it in any conceivable way is a puny race that has existed for only a couple of hundred thousand years and will probably die off in a couple hundred thousand more. When compared to the Universe's scale, it would be an awful waste. I mean, really - our time on this planet is hilarious when placed against even... The age of the Earth, let alone when compared to the age of the Universe.

I think there has to be other sentient life out there. Think about it, with that many planets out there, there are billions upon billions of planets in the universe. I think it's just a silly idea to think that not one of those planets has something anywhere similar to life on our planet, let alone creatures that aren't anything like what we've ever seen or ever will see.

[QUOTE=Stopper;35599850]I truly believe that there is life elsewhere in the Universe. If there wasn't... Well, that would be sad, wouldn't it be guys? All this space, and the only thing that can value it in any conceivable way is a puny race that has existed for only a couple of hundred thousand years and will probably die off in a couple hundred thousand more. When compared to the Universe's scale, it would be an awful waste. I mean, really - our time on this planet is hilarious when placed against even... The age of the Earth, let alone when compared to the age of the Universe.[/QUOTE] So your only evidence to support ET life is that it would make you feel bad if there wasn't any? Any from where do you draw the conclusion that humanity will ever die out?

[QUOTE=King Tiger;35622148]So your only evidence to support ET life is that it would make you feel bad if there wasn't any? Any from where do you draw the conclusion that humanity will ever die out?[/QUOTE] It's good to know that out there someone completely missed the point of my post.

[QUOTE=Stopper;35624497]It's good to know that out there someone completely missed the point of my post.[/QUOTE] Please explain your point then. And tell me where you thought up the humanity dying out thing.

Here's my thoughts to get me started on the debate. I do think there is life out there, first of all. The statistical chances are so unfathomably high that it should be considered insane to think otherwise. Whether it is a knowledgeable species or a colony of unicellular organisms is another question. Then again, with my following evidence who's to say it's not all of the above? Before I do, let's start off with some currently known approximations: Earth is 12 million meters from pole to pole. Our solar system is equivalent to 19 trillion meters in distance. One light year is equivalent to 10 quadrillion meters (9.4605284x10^15). Our galaxy in size is equivalent to approximately 110,000 light years, or 12,000,000,000,000,000,000 (12 quintillion meters). The Andromeda system is about 3.5 million light years away. That's equivalent to 35,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 meters (35 sextillion meters). Doubling this then multiplying by 1.25 gives us the approximate distance of our local galactic group. Doing this comes out to be about: 105,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 meters (105 sextillion meters). The Virgo Supercluster we reside in is approximately 110 million light years in size. That's 1,100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 meters (1.1 septillion meters). The closest piece of the Horologium Supercluster is approximately 700 million light years away. 500 million light years length-wise and its width about half its length, that's approximately 950 million light years. That's 9,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 meters (9.5 septillion meters). Multiplying this by 1.5 gives us the approximate length of our local superclusters. That's 14,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 meters (14.25 septillion meters). The distance from Earth to the edge of our observable universe is 46 billion light years. Doubling this in non-approximated form gives about 93 billion light years. That's 930,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 meters (930 octillion meters). This means our planet makes up approximately 0.00000000000000000129032% of the universe. 129 quntillionth percent of the universe. Given that staggering statistic, it's almost impossible to believe there wasn't another planet with which was born into this universe with life on it, sentient or not. Images used in order to obtain this information and some of the approximations: [quote][img]http://i.imgur.com/EAdKu.jpg[/img][/quote] [quote][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/7_Local_Superclusters.png/1024px-7_Local_Superclusters.png[/img][/quote] [quote][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/6_Virgo_Supercluster_%28ELitU%29.png/1024px-6_Virgo_Supercluster_%28ELitU%29.png[/img][/quote] [quote][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/5_Local_Galactic_Group_%28ELitU%29.png/1024px-5_Local_Galactic_Group_%28ELitU%29.png[/img][/quote] [quote][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/4_Milky_Way_%28ELitU%29.png/1024px-4_Milky_Way_%28ELitU%29.png[/img][/quote] [quote][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/3_Solar_Interstellar_Neighborhood_%28ELitU%29.png/1024px-3_Solar_Interstellar_Neighborhood_%28ELitU%29.png[/img][/quote] [quote][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/2_Solar_System_%28ELitU%29.png/1024px-2_Solar_System_%28ELitU%29.png[/img][/quote] [quote][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/1_Earth_%28ELitU%29.png/1024px-1_Earth_%28ELitU%29.png[/img][/quote] That being said, there's a version of Drake's equation which is fully functioning (not to say that it is completely accurate). N = 7 × 0.5 × 2 × 0.33 × 0.01 × 0.01 × 10,000 = 2.31 That's our galaxy alone. 12 quintillion meters large. Compared to the universe's massive 930 octillion meters, Drake's equation says the chance of there not being life with which communication is possible is like spitting forward with no wind and having it fly back past your head, all the way to NYC, over the Empire State building, it orbiting around the building three times, then having it fly back all the way to you and land in your mouth. Not only that, but according to these statistics I presented, even Occam's Razor applies to this scenario.

Your calculations make like no sense at all, couldn't be any less scientific, and doesn't prove jack shit. And from where did you get that "fully function version" of the Drake equation? Furthermore - this is the thread where we talk about ETs visiting Earth. Not the existance of ET life overall.

Of course there is alien life out there but they haven't been here.

[QUOTE=Rad McCool;35626692]Your calculations make like no sense at all, couldn't be any less scientific, and doesn't prove jack shit. And from where did you get that "fully function version" of the Drake equation? Furthermore - this is the thread where we talk about ETs visiting Earth. Not the existance of ET life overall.[/QUOTE] I just explained the calculations. What doesn't make sense about them? Sources for the Drake Equation's variables: [quote] ""Milky Way Churns Out Seven New Stars Per Year, Scientists Say". Goddard Space Flight Center, NASA. Retrieved 8 May 2008." "Amos, Jonathan (19 October 2009). "Scientists announce planet bounty". BBC. Retrieved 19 October 2009." "W. von Bloh, C.Bounama, M. Cuntz, and S. Franck. (2007). "The habitability of super-Earths in Gliese 581". Astronomy & Astrophysics 476 (3)" "F. Selsis, J.F. Kasting, B. Levrard, J. Paillet, I. Ribas, and X. Delfosse. (2007). "Habitable planets around the star Gliese 581?". Astronomy & Astrophysics 476" "Lineweaver, C. H. & Davis, T. M. (2002). "Does the rapid appearance of life on Earth suggest that life is common in the universe?". Astrobiology 2 (3)" "Review of Life's Solution by Simon Morris" "Duncan Forgan, Martin Elvis (28 March 2011). "Extrasolar Asteroid Mining as Forensic Evidence for Extraterrestrial Intelligence". International Journal of Astrobiology" ""Why ET Hasn’t Called". Scientific American. August 2002." "Lonely Planets, David Grinspoon (2004)" [/quote] Also, I clearly stated it was information about possible life other than ours and it being sentient. I wasn't actually debating about them being on Earth, as clearly stated. For them to be on Earth, using the information I provided above, it's also extremely likely considering the oldest known galaxy is well over 12 billion years old. ([url]http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/oct/21/hubble-pinpoints-oldest-known-galaxy/[/url]). Three times as old as Earth.

I think that no specie can actually evolve out of their initial home planet. It just seems too much of an impossible task, and planets rich in nature, like the Earth of ours, is far too important for us, or for any living beings. But I guess even that's not for sure. Give humans about a thousand or two thousand more years to develop technologies and we'll see. And considering how relatively short periods of time a thousand, two thousand, or two hundred years are, but still very significant, some other older planet with life could have evolved and developed way further than us. Would be nice if we could compare the life on Earth to some other life on planet X that is either younger or older than our planet.

[QUOTE=Bat-shit;35627013]I think that no specie can actually evolve out of their initial home planet. It just seems too much of an impossible task, and planets rich in nature, like the Earth of ours, is far too important for us, or for any living beings. But I guess even that's not for sure. Give humans about a thousand or two thousand more years to develop technologies and we'll see. And considering how relatively short periods of time a thousand, two thousand, or two hundred years are, but still very significant, some other older planet with life could have evolved and developed way further than us. Would be nice if we could compare the life on Earth to some other life on planet X that is either younger or older than our planet.[/QUOTE] You you may be right in some regards. It's entirely possible to move off a home planet and to colonize another, but it would be an extremely difficult task. Species develop to fit their own planet, and living on a foreign one would be very demanding. For instance, there could be a planet that is like Earth in almost every way. It has the same elements in the same quantities and compositions and it is in the habitable zone. But it might be 5 times the size of Earth, and the gravity would be crushing. A species that looks and acts just like humans do might be able to survive there, but they would have to be 5 times the size as regular humans.

[QUOTE=Bat-shit;35627013]I think that no specie can actually evolve out of their initial home planet. It just seems too much of an impossible task, and planets rich in nature, like the Earth of ours, is far too important for us, or for any living beings. But I guess even that's not for sure. Give humans about a thousand or two thousand more years to develop technologies and we'll see. And considering how relatively short periods of time a thousand, two thousand, or two hundred years are, but still very significant, some other older planet with life could have evolved and developed way further than us. Would be nice if we could compare the life on Earth to some other life on planet X that is either younger or older than our planet.[/QUOTE] Er, we just discovered a new planet almost identical to Earth, with which if we had more advanced fire suits, could literally live on. The standard firesuit can withstand thousand degree temperature for about 18 seconds. The temperature of the newfound Kepler planet is 798 degrees. Unfortunately too far away for our space exploration capabilities, assuming we had FTL we could easily make the travel. If not, assuming we could at least slow down the aging process, we already have machines that can self-feed/water us and exercise our bodies without moving. We'd just have to make it wait. Given 3 times as much time as Earth has had, who's to say an alien race hasn't already followed these steps?

The 1976 Tehran UFO incident is a fairly interesting case to discuss, primarily because of the reputable evidence for a physical presence that was very well documented. This is the only real case with evidence worth considering that I can really think of at the moment. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Tehran_UFO_incident[/url] Video for the lazy, but jesus christ its cheesy. [URL="http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=701_1268549064"][video]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=701_1268549064[/video][/URL]

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[QUOTE=WitheredGryphon;35626841]I just explained the calculations. What doesn't make sense about them?[/QUOTE] Because you are like trying to use some "volume argument" using only one dimension, and considering empty space as a factor. It doesn't make much sense. I can't look over your calculations because they are very poorly written (please, just use ^ instead of mashing zeroes). You have calculated the size of Earth compared to the universe in one dimension. I can do that too in an instant: (Diameter of Earth) / (Diameter of the observable Universe) = 13 000 km / 93 billion ly = (12 * 10^6) m / (8.8 * 10^26) m = 1.36 * 10^-18 % or 0.000000000000000000136 % Which tells us absolutely nothing of importance. And Drake's Equation is still useless since we don't know all the variables (we can't even estimate some).

[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32788424]Actually, I believe it to be rather impossible that intelligent extraterrestrials don't exist. They haven't come here though, simply because there isn't a good way to do so(energy requirements and propulsion, etc. This is another discussion) Here is my [highlight]support[/highlight]: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation[/url] Check it. Not to mention the Universe is so vast and there are trillions among trillions of stars, thus making at least millions of planets in the universe with the same conditions as ours capable of producing life. And this is only CARBON based life. We have no idea what other kinds of life could exist out there. [editline]14th October 2011[/editline] Actually, I reread OP and it isn't really another discussion, it would fit perfectly. As far as we know it is impossible to travel faster than light(Yes I know neutrinos have, but as far as I know this hasn't be reproduced by another collider yet so we'll ignore it). The closest system(Alpha Centauri) is like 4.3 lightyears away and the planets in that system are incapable of supporting life as we know it. Why is this important? Because from our Sun, it takes LIGHT 4.3 years to get to. Light travels 4473 times faster than the fastest man made object ever created which is the Helios 2 space probe which reached a maximum velocity of around 150,000 mph. It takes massive amounts of energy to accelerate anything to near light speed. The only thing we've ever gotten to near light speed are particles. Space probes and shuttles are HUGE. Now we get to my point. The energy requirements and problems creating a vessel capable of near-light speed travel are INCREDIBLE. So not only would aliens need to have extreme methods for storing and utilizing energy for propulsion, but they would also have to wait hundreds of years to get anywhere near our planet. Not to mention, they might be an organism that couldn't survive in our atmosphere making their journey here pointless. Of course, there are wormholes. Well, wormholes are still only a theory, and it is theorized that opening a stable wormhole requires more energy then the entire planet produces in a year, and we still don't have any idea how to keep it open. Basically, the odds of any aliens finding us are [b]ASTRONOMICAL[/b]. Aside from needing extremely efficient energy storing capabilities and extraordinary propulsion systems, they would have to know where we were! The vastness of the Universe makes it improbable for any super intelligent race to stumble upon a planet upon trillions, and almost all signals mankind has ever generated and sent out is still hundreds of years away from any reasonable destination. If anyone can think of a counter-argument for this, PLEASE do so. It'd make my day; this is like my favorite thing to discuss.[/QUOTE] This, what if there have been/are right now civilizations that are much more intelligent than humans, but they have no way of travelling so far across the universe. And they don't have to be humanoid like everyone expects. It could be some fucked up race of cactus monsters

[QUOTE=Rad McCool;35632169]Because you are like trying to use some "volume argument" using only one dimension, and considering empty space as a factor. It doesn't make much sense. I can't look over your calculations because they are very poorly written (please, just use ^ instead of mashing zeroes). You have calculated the size of Earth compared to the universe in one dimension. I can do that too in an instant: (Diameter of Earth) / (Diameter of the observable Universe) = 13 000 km / 93 billion ly = (12 * 10^6) m / (8.8 * 10^26) m = 1.36 * 10^-18 % or 0.000000000000000000136 % Which tells us absolutely nothing of importance. And Drake's Equation is still useless since we don't know all the variables (we can't even estimate some).[/QUOTE] Er, it does. And the pictures I provided lay out the observable universe in two dimensions (where are you getting this one dimension from? One dimension is used for the perimeter of an object). Why I say it does, because if we make up such a small proportion of the universe it's nigh impossible another sentient race exists. I still don't get why you say the Drake's Equation doesn't work. There is only one variable that varies in that equation, the rest is estimated based on rather recent tests as per my sources. What variables don't we know?

We can estimate the number of stars decently. If you want to stretch it, we can estimate the number of planets aswell. And then it becomes very uncertain to the point where you pretty much have to take a shot in the dark. For the other [B]five[/B] variables.

I swear WitheredGryphon, if you handed me your post in real life I'd probably rip it in half and throw it in the bin. [b]There's no proof. If there was, we wouldn't be having this discussion.[/b] Let's say that Drake's Equation is completely 100% accurate. There's still no proof. We could be in the 0.00000000000000000000000000001% (or any other garbage figure) of universes without life besides Earth.

I personally think that the only real "evidence" (proof means that it is 100% certain) for the evidence of Aliens is the ancient "holy texts". This is pretty weak evidence, but imo it is the most likely. There is also the chance that the amount of sightings of et increased after TV & Radio etc was due to the radio signals we were broadcasting over space, which some aliens have picked up and possibly mabye slightly decided to come here

[QUOTE=Eltro102;35799498]I personally think that the only real "evidence" (proof means that it is 100% certain) for the evidence of Aliens is the ancient "holy texts". This is pretty weak evidence, but imo it is the most likely. There is also the chance that the amount of sightings of et increased after TV & Radio etc was due to the radio signals we were broadcasting over space, which some aliens have picked up and possibly mabye slightly decided to come here[/QUOTE] Radio/tv signals are only going to be detectable a few light years around earth. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law[/url]